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Can I let someone else shoot with my rifle?


bongodriver
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As the topic suggests I was wondering if it was possible for me to supervise someone else to use my rifle whilst shooting on their land? I would be present at all times and the land belongs to the person, they don't hold an FAC but may be interested in the future. is that technically the same thing as mentoring?

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  • 2 months later...

unless their land was already cleared i think firing on uncleared land without an open ticket could land you in hot water

Yes that's true for any situation. Is there any need for an open ticket in this particular scenario if plod have cleared the land for the rifle/calibre to be used?

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In the event it was not a friends land and just a friend using a spare rifle is this legal if they are under supervision at all times? Land is all cleared etc

 

Each force have their own personal view on this. Durham police allow a fac holder to let a non fac holder use their rifle on land they have permission on. Eg I am currently letting a non fac holder use my 243 in my presence whilst he is applying for his fac. Durham are ok with this as Im in contact with his flo and he advised this person to get some experience before he can have a cf rifle (has been given the go ahead for rf). The land isn't cleared for 243 but I have an open fac so there are no problems there.

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In the event it was not a friends land and just a friend using a spare rifle is this legal if they are under supervision at all times? Land is all cleared etc

 

 

It doesn't matter who owns the land, if you are the Occupier, you can lend your gun to anyone to use on the land as long as they are under you supervision!

EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE.doc

Edited by Dekers
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  • 3 months later...

just done a search for this advice....I have just been told by Norfolk Firearms that I cant let anyone use my gun on land I have and also that if I want to take anyone out on a CLOSED ticket than they need to get written permission themself even if the land is already cleared and on my permission slip it states I can take out other shots!!!

 

Just wish advice was black and white and not grey :sly: :sly:

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It is black and white they don't make the law up, if the land is cleared and you have permission to take someone else then that is absolutely fine if they are restricted to land passed for that caliber.

 

The using your gun needs a little more interpretation but you need to be in legal terms the occupier. Some think this is covered with written permission some think you need to pay for the ground to qualify so its pretty grey.

 

Its very interesting firearms depts making things up like this and giving the go ahead or not as they actually would have limited input if it ever went to court as it would be down to the arresting officer the cps and the law book so to speak. Most of the FEO's are civilians and just interpreting the law in their own way they do not make the law.

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I asked the BASC a while ago which was related to another query..but when i asked if my mate could shoot my rifle on the land i have perm on they said NO i also asked if i would be able to shoot my friends rifle same calibre 223 as what i use they said NO we both have open certs..and i would be breaking the law... :hmm:

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I asked the BASC a while ago which was related to another query..but when i asked if my mate could shoot my rifle on the land i have perm on they said NO i also asked if i would be able to shoot my friends rifle same calibre 223 as what i use they said NO we both have open certs..and i would be breaking the law... :hmm:

 

thats what they said to me and that I could not really take anyone out..then spoke to the FLO and they said no ...tried to ask about the section 16 part and I was just dismissed

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I asked the BASC a while ago which was related to another query..but when i asked if my mate could shoot my rifle on the land i have perm on they said NO i also asked if i would be able to shoot my friends rifle same calibre 223 as what i use they said NO we both have open certs..and i would be breaking the law... :hmm:

 

 

Which part of this does NOT apply to you then?

 

EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE

 

Shot guns

 

6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows

an individual, without holding a shot gun

certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the

occupier of private premises and use it on

those premises in the occupier’s presence.

The presence of the occupier is normally

taken to mean within sight and earshot of the

individual borrowing the firearm. The term

“occupier” is not defined in the Firearms

Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning.

However, the Firearms Consultative

Committee in their 5th Annual report

recommended that the provisions of section

27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’. In the absence of any firm definition

for firearms purposes, it is suggested that

each chief officer of police may wish to make

use of this definition. On some occasions

though, where the status of a certificate

holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the

chief officer may need to consider seeking

the advice of counsel. Section 57(4) provides

that “premises” shall include any land. The

borrower may be of any age but an offence

may be committed under section 22(3) if a

minor under the age of 15 is not supervised

by a person over 21 years of age.

6.15 Similarly, section 11(6) of the 1968 Act

allows an individual, without holding a shot

gun certificate, to use a shot gun at a time

and place approved for shooting at artificial

targets by the chief officer of police for the

area in which that place is situated. As the

approval of such time and place is prescribed

by law and there may be duty of care issues

involved, chief officers may wish not only

to satisfy themselves that such events are

properly conducted and supervised, but also

to establish that there are no public safety

issues involved. When an exemption is

granted, the chief officer should advise

the organiser that they are responsible for

ensuring, so far as is practicable, that

adequate precautions are taken for the safety

of the participants and any spectators. Shoots

at which participants hold certificates do not

require an exemption under section 11(6).

Organisers operating in conjunction with

business, such as corporate entertainment,

will have additional responsibilities under

the Health and Safety at Work Act.

 

Borrowed rifles on private premises

 

6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It

should be noted that this gives slightly more

flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than

is permissible with the use of a shot gun

as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the

borrowed rifle can also be used in the

presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, the occupier and/or their servant

must hold a firearm certificate in respect of

the firearm being used, and the borrower,

who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their

servant), must comply with the conditions

of the certificate. These may include a

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,

territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the

1968 Act defines “premises” as including any

land. The effect of the provision is to allow

a person visiting a private estate to borrow

and use a rifle without a certificate. The

exemption does not extend to persons under

the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

There is no notification required on the

loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically

identified as such on a “keeper’s” or

“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term

“in the presence of” is not defined in law

but is generally interpreted as being within

sight and earshot.

6.17 Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides

for a person borrowing a rifle in accordance

with section 16(1) of the 1988 Act to

purchase or acquire ammunition for use in

the rifle, and to have it in their possession

during the period for which the rifle is

borrowed, without holding a certificate. The

borrower’s possession of the ammunition

must comply with the conditions on the

certificate of the person in whose presence

they are and the amount of ammunition

borrowed must not exceed that which the

certificate holder is authorised to have in

their possession at that time. It should be

noted that the borrower may only take

possession of the ammunition during the

period of the loan of the rifle at which time

they will be in the presence of the certificate

holder. If the persons selling or handing

over the ammunition are not certificate

holders, it may be necessary for them to

see the certificate to satisfy themselves that

the terms of this section have been met and

that the amount of ammunition the borrower

wishes to acquire is no greater than that

which the certificate holder is authorised

to possess. However, the details of the

transaction need not be recorded on

the certificate.

 

NO is not an answer, ask WHY and ask which part of the Firearms Law above is wrong!

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Wasn't there an example fo this very case recently regarding a Welsh(?) rugby player who used his fathers rifle to shoot something from a bedroom window in his fathers house?And didn't Bill Harriman from BASC represent the defendant,who wasn.t convicted?Have done a search on here but can't find it.

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Wasn't there an example fo this very case recently regarding a Welsh(?) rugby player who used his fathers rifle to shoot something from a bedroom window in his fathers house?And didn't Bill Harriman from BASC represent the defendant,who wasn.t convicted?Have done a search on here but can't find it.

 

I know the case you are on about :good:

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/pressreleases.cfm/prid/63624938-FDEC-470A-886E04D2831391F6

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I think this part;

 

This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’. In the absence of any firm definition

for firearms purposes, it is suggested that

each chief officer of police may wish to make

use of this definition.

 

could do with clarification. Having the "right" to shoot is not the same as having "permission" to shoot. The land owner or owner of sporting rights has the "right" in law, whereas the average shooter merely has "permission" to shoot there.

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