coneyhunter Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Hello all, i got talking to someone the other day, a freind of a freind, and as we talked more both realised we had an interest in shooting, i asked what he did most of and he said fox control, taking an interest i enquired as to what he used to do the job, my question being shotgun or rifle and he said rifle, upon asking what calibre he used he said a .20 cal AIR RIFLE , sub 12 ftlbs - my face dropped and i asked the question again, thinking perhaps i had misheard his response, sadly i hadnt. He then proceeded to show me pictures of foxes he had shot with said airgun and seemed very pleased, iwas not, feeling an urge to go into a barrage of questioning and stating that he gave the shooting community a bad name i made my excsuses and left. Im sure there are people that think its perfectly acceptable to shoot at foxes with an airgun, i do not, my personal beleif is that it is cruel and completley unhumane and shold be frowned upon by the shooting community, and im sure im not the only one. I would like to point out im not trying to side with the Antis here but i firmly beleive that as shooters of live quarry we have a duty to make sure said quarry i dispatched quickly and humanley and no sffering is prolonged. I know the fox can be a menace but i dont beleive this is good reason to take pot shots at one with an airgun, its not the right tool for the job and in my personal opinion is often not really powerful enough to dispatch smaller game, let alone a large fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMcC Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 You should have questioned him a bit more, perhaps he used the said air rifle to despatch foxes that had been caught in cage traps. If he had photos of dead foxes, he must have been doing something right, although I'm not sure what on the face of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semiautolee Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 this is going to be a long thread and a few discussions!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soreshoulder Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 there was a post on here a few months ago where a guy had a dead fox and had a sub 12ftlb air rifle. He shot it from point blank and again from 15 yards or so and both shots pierced the skull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Surely you would have been better getting to the bottom of it with the person in question if it really did happen,than posting this to folks nothing to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 You should have questioned him a bit more, perhaps he used the said air rifle to despatch foxes that had been caught in cage traps. If he had photos of dead foxes, he must have been doing something right, although I'm not sure what on the face of your post. Strange opening post, because, as above, he had pictures of dead foxes, so it worked, so what is the problem? Doesn't add up, and no doubt this is only half the tale! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 It's a terrible thing to hear when someone tells you that they take what is in your book, an inhumane shot. I think the majority of shooters shudder at the thought, but there will always be the odd few who will fall back on the phrase "foxes don't carry lead well" - They will die eventually. :( This chap is obviously keen to a point, and perhaps just misguided. Did you find out where he shoots the Foxes? Who for etc? Did he seem the sort to take advice, or more the sort who is right and unlikely to change? If he's the former then perhaps if you are close enough to get together with him again then you could offer to take him out with your kit? If he's a suitable bloke after further chatting that is. What's going through my head is that if he's a genuine bloke who just doesn't really see the error of his ways then perhaps you could help him to get his FAC and do the job properly? Lets face it if he gets kills (any kills at all) with an air rifle then he's going to be pretty deadly with a .22lr if he uses it to the same limits. I think this could go two ways. He's either a numpty who can't be helped, or with a bit of a push in the right direction could end up quite a reasonable sportsman. Maybe get him logged on here so he can talk to us if he doesn't take your side of the arguement. My only hope then would be that none of the foolish and argumentative members lay into him and make him leave as quickly as he arrived. Sometimes lack of knowlege needs gentle talking around. Telling someone they're an idiot isn't going to help one bit if they don't stick around long enough to realise what everyone is trying to tell them! Unfortunately there are plenty of "holier than thou" comments on here if you read through the history which have done just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Dear god , I have been trying to educate a very small minority on here about being a spotsman rather than a gunner . I have tried in a subtle and not so subtle way to put my point over and when I see posts like this it just make my blood boil . I have always been against compulsory training for novice shooters ,now I am not so sure . Harnser . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I don't really like certification myself but a gun is a dangerous tool, much like a car, and I think some basic training wouldn't hurt. Just a simple membership of a gun club for six months (with regular visits required) before a certificate is granted or a gun can be purchased perhaps? I would imagine all clubs have a member who wouldn't mind sitting down with new members and talking to them about what direction they wish to head in, what they want to shoot and how they should go about it? I'd be more than happy to sit a small class down and tell them the basics. I don't claim to be the best shot or the most experienced stalker but just a basic pass of the most basic issues would go a long way to helping people who potentially know absolutely nothing about the law or quarry. Lets face it, with things as they are now, you don't need to know anthing to get an air rifle, and not even a great deal to get a SGC or basic FAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 He shot it from point blank and again from 15 yards or so and both shots pierced the skull. Eh? He shot it at point blank range and then walked back 15 yards to have another shot at it or he shot it at point blank range, injured it and managed to get it again when it had limped 15 yards away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Dear god , I have been trying to educate a very small minority on here about being a spotsman rather than a gunner . I have tried in a subtle and not so subtle way to put my point over and when I see posts like this it just make my blood boil . I have always been against compulsory training for novice shooters ,now I am not so sure . Harnser . There will always be those that respect their prey and those that don't with a great big grey section joining the two. Airguns of any description and foxs is a no no in my book, is there a legal issue, willful wounding etc, I have no idea but I'm not meant to shoot a fox unless its down for the specified calibre on my FAC. Of course air rifles need no license but there must be some laws over what you can shoot with em. All we can do is try and educate but there are those that will just shoot at something for the fun of it (including domestic pets), it makes my blood boil seeing wounded deer, finding piles or rabbit, pigeons pushed into a stinking mess in the hedge and reading of domestic animals shot for the fun of it but its the way it is, humans are generally a selfish and cruel bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Dear god , I have been trying to educate a very small minority on here about being a spotsman rather than a gunner . I have tried in a subtle and not so subtle way to put my point over and when I see posts like this it just make my blood boil . I have always been against compulsory training for novice shooters ,now I am not so sure . Harnser . Harnser, I've been kicking around for as long as you which is probably why we think alike on the sportsman bit - it was drummed into us from the word go. My prediction is that first of all, professionals who use a gun as a tool (I hate the word when used in a sporting context, "tooled up" springs to mind and projects a poor image) will have to be competence certificated. The sporting users will then follow and it will have nothing to do with being introduced because there was no evidence that they wished to do it voluntarily as, just like everything else that's thrown at us, it will originate in Europe. Like you, I'm not all that sure that it would be a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I don't really like certification myself but a gun is a dangerous tool, much like a car, and I think some basic training wouldn't hurt. Just a simple membership of a gun club for six months (with regular visits required) before a certificate is granted or a gun can be purchased perhaps? I would imagine all clubs have a member who wouldn't mind sitting down with new members and talking to them about what direction they wish to head in, what they want to shoot and how they should go about it? I'd be more than happy to sit a small class down and tell them the basics. I don't claim to be the best shot or the most experienced stalker but just a basic pass of the most basic issues would go a long way to helping people who potentially know absolutely nothing about the law or quarry. Lets face it, with things as they are now, you don't need to know anthing to get an air rifle, and not even a great deal to get a SGC or basic FAC. yeah, could your course include mole control please? it would be a must attend event for all then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I do quite a bit of airgun hunting and am pretty sure a perfectly placed pellet would kill a fox at a sensible range, but would I do it lets face it there are far better tools for the job and the risk of wounding would be just to great for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Eh? He shot it at point blank range and then walked back 15 yards to have another shot at it or he shot it at point blank range, injured it and managed to get it again when it had limped 15 yards away? Soreshoulder did say it was a dead fox. As in dead before he shot it with an airrifle. Personally, I wouldn't use a sub12 air rifle on a Hare let alone a fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason kaye Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Eh? He shot it at point blank range and then walked back 15 yards to have another shot at it or he shot it at point blank range, injured it and managed to get it again when it had limped 15 yards away? I think you misunderstood,he had an already dead fox and then shot it at point blank and then again at 15yds just to prove a point that both shots penetrated the skull,still doesn't justify the use of airguns on foxes. Jase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I have always been against compulsory training for novice shooters ,now I am not so sure . Just a matter of time Harnser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coneyhunter Posted August 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Surely you would have been better getting to the bottom of it with the person in question if it really did happen,than posting this to folks nothing to do with it? i understand where you are coming from, but i wanted to hear the majorities view on his, really to satisfy my own curiosity, sadly i was that annoyed that i was not capable of having an in depth discussion without strong chances of getting into a verbal disagreement, i chose to leave it and walk away. it concerns me greatly that we all participate in a sport which is threatended in the extreme, sadly the press take every opportunity presented to them to black list the legimtimate shooting community and its irresponsible use of Airguns that is often brought up, with yobs shooting peoples pets or worse other perople., which leads me to begin to wander about licencsing for such weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) Just a matter of time Harnser Hopefully it's on its way in the near future. Edited August 28, 2011 by dazza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Whether anyone likes it or not there are people out there with air rifles who would, for a number of reasons have no chance of getting a ticket. Some will be legal power but many have ones that are either constantly modified - or adjustable in the field to FAC levels, some to very high FAC levels so they can achieve near .22lr potency. That some of us are legally equipped and conditioned to use more than enough energy doesn't mean it is a rare occurence that air rifles are used to very discretely control foxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Dear god , I have been trying to educate a very small minority on here about being a spotsman rather than a gunner . I have tried in a subtle and not so subtle way to put my point over and when I see posts like this it just make my blood boil . I have always been against compulsory training for novice shooters ,now I am not so sure . Harnser . [/quote Here we go again!While I'm not condoning shooting foxes with sub 12ft lbs air weapons,I don't see what shooting foxes(or any other pest species)has to do with so called 'sport'.It is PEST CONTROL! Personally I think it is you who needs 'educating'.You seem to set great store by shooting for 'sport'as do the LACS,who unlike you,consider all shooting of prey for 'sport' as unsporting. You seem to be confusing 'sport' with 'humane'.As long as the prey,whatever it is,doesn't suffer,then it's job done,and humane;'sport' has absolutely nothing to do with it.Foxes are pests,in the same league as rats.I know of no one who would give a rat a sporting chance. The LACS consider us (shooters) as 'blood junkies' because we kill things for fun,'sport'. One of the biggest problems fox hunters had with the general public was the fact that hunting with hounds is considered 'sport'.Chasing an animal halfway across the county in the name of 'sport' did their cause no favours at all,so one or two claimed it was pest control in an attempt to distance themselves from the assumed inherent cruelty in fox hunting,by stating that only the infirm,old and diseased were caught,ensuring a fit and healthy fox population!But if foxes are pests,and hunting is pest control,why would you want to ensure they were fit and healthy?No one wants fit and healthy pests,do they? A quick and painless death is HUMANE,not SPORTING.And as shooters we all know that a quick and painless death is the ideal,but not always the result.Forget about 'sport' and concentrate on the 'humane'. My apologies for the rant,but 'sport' in my opinion,is two opponents competing on a level footing.Hardly describes the shooting of a living being.I shoot all manner of things,but whether it's game or pests,I never consider it 'sporting'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 It is true that maybe those in the profession of rearing game as their living may shrug their shoulders and head out into the cold night with shear resentment of having to control the fox's that disrupt their profits but a, and quite large one at that,industry has grown on Fox shooting as a sport. So many times have I heard 'They are just vermin and we need to kill em all and they have no rights'. Sometimes they are a right pain in the behind but they arent exactly eating children are they.Fox's are part of our countryside and have an important role in that chain. Some,not all, hide behind the cloak of fox are vermin and will be dealt with however, rubbish, sport or control they need to be dealt with humanely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) I think you misunderstood,he had an already dead fox and then shot it at point blank and then again at 15yds just to prove a point that both shots penetrated the skull,still doesn't justify the use of airguns on foxes. Jase. I was going to say. Wondered whether he'd caught it in at trap or something, either that or he's the world champion fox squeaker Edited August 28, 2011 by ack-ack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Soreshoulder did say it was a dead fox. As in dead before he shot it with an airrifle. Personally, I wouldn't use a sub12 air rifle on a Hare let alone a fox. You're quite right, apologies. Thats what happens when you're trying to have a conversation and pick holes in peoples posts at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semiautolee Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) this post will be closed soon i reckon......heated discussions= FIGHT Edited August 28, 2011 by semiautolee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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