Guns in schools.

[OddJob]

Just imagine you gave a disturbed nut case kid who comes from a broken home who has not a clue who his father is & who sits around watching video nasties , porn , & playing on those sick graphic war game videos & has never been told that killing another human being is a sin ! . Would you give that Kid a loaded shot gun on the clay range & stand behind him ? all that kid has to do is turn 180 degees & then you have a BIG PROBLEM !

For all those exact reasons, yes I would! They have nothing else positive in their life. However, it would need be after I had got to know them and seen an element of trust demonstrated. Also, good management of the shooting situation helps. From my experience, when trying out shooting, people do not mess about. It is the complacency that is the bigger issue; students who have done it a million times not paying proper attention to safety rules. Most people are not killers nor wish to harm intentionally.

 

But all of this comes from a passion, and that makes you think more creatively and actively. If it is pushed on people who lack the passion, problems would arise.

 

This discussion is utterly theoretical as it will never happen, especially with the present reforms in PE that are taking place. 2 hours a week...it would take that long to load a minibus, get to a ground and back again let alone shoot.

[CharlieT]

Just imagine you gave a disturbed nut case kid who comes from a broken home who has not a clue who his father is & who sits around watching video nasties , porn , & playing on those sick graphic war game videos & has never been told that killing another human being is a sin ! . Would you give that Kid a loaded shot gun on the clay range & stand behind him ? all that kid has to do is turn 180 degees & then you have a BIG PROBLEM !

 

Perhaps that's typical of children in the Orkney's but here school children behave and thankfully get taught to shoot from an early age. Our main problem is getting them into school on shoot days, they are all out beating !!

[Pole Star]

Perhaps that's typical of children in the Orkney's but here school children behave and thankfully get taught to shoot from an early age. Our main problem is getting them into school on shoot days, they are all out beating !!

You must have good kids in Exmoor like WE HAVE IN THE ORKNEY'S Charlie but in real life you only have to look at the problem kids in the inner city areas my God do you never read or see the news & keep up with current affairs ?

 

Must add Charlie T would you give the 2 killers of little Jamie Bolger a loaded shot gun ? so there you have it in a nut shell ! so keep your slurs about Orkney children to your self !

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pole Star

[WinchesterDave]

I'd say quite a lot of private school have it, through the CCF,( which I am a Member of and recently got promoted to RQMS). Cadets, learn safely how use the No.8 .22 rifle first and must pass a weapon handling test on it, in order to use it on the 25m indoor range. Cadets then get introduced the the L98A2 cadet GP Rifle, which in essence in an SA80A2, with out the capability of fully automatic fire, and has iron sights and not the optical SUSAT sight. We use this on exercise with blanks, and from 100-300m shooting. It uses a 5.56x45mm round and extensive weapon training is undertaken to ensure that a cadet is safe with it, even with the use of blank ammunition.

A vast majority of cadets, would never have the oppotunity to touch any kind of weapons without being in the CCF, and end up absolutely loving it, and being surprisingly good. It teaches young people self discipline, and safety. They love it, ( apart from the cleaning at the end of exercise/range days!) all in all though I don't think it should be on the national curriculum, but it's good it's part of organisations like cadets, because people will then take it seriously and and learn what to do, how to do it, and above all be safe whilst doing it.

ATB.

[HDAV]

Must add Charlie T would you give the 2 killers of little Jamie Bolger a loaded shot gun ? so there you have it in a nut shell ! so keep your slurs about Orkney children to your self !

 

IF they had been introduced tosomethign which taught them discipline and responsibility prior to them meeting Jamie Bolger perhaps he would still be alive today.

[Scully]

Just imagine you gave a disturbed nut case kid who comes from a broken home who has not a clue who his father is & who sits around watching video nasties , porn , & playing on those sick graphic war game videos & has never been told that killing another human being is a sin ! . Would you give that Kid a loaded shot gun on the clay range & stand behind him ? all that kid has to do is turn 180 degees & then you have a BIG PROBLEM !

This post,and that other drivel you posted regarding the killers of Jamie Bulger just beggars belief.What an utterly ridiculous statement to make;you simply don't have a clue do you!

[Pole Star]

IF they had been introduced tosomethign which taught them discipline and responsibility prior to them meeting Jamie Bolger perhaps he would still be alive today.

I think that is half or most of the problem HDVA but that has to start at an early age & if the parents dont start from early on then its an up hill struggle ! God how I would have loved to do a bit of shooting at school ! but we had to do ours with the air rifle at home & at the local small bore range . I dont know what other PW users think but there is or was even in my day a marked difference between Kids from rural areas & inner city areas & the truth is as much as we don't like to say there are will always be problem kids.

 

Shooting for children at certain schools is a good thing & I always remembered those kids from the Bloxham school on that clay shooting trip & were they happy & excited & well behaved YES ! .

[bedwards1966]

To those who ask why it should be taught in schools when other Olympic sports aren't - the difference between shooting and all other sports is that it uses a potentially lethal weapon. In teaching them to use them safely and to see what they can do you have an opportunity to change people's views on them, possibly helping to prevent further restriction of our firearms laws and gang culture with firearms.

No other sport offers this, teaching everyone synchronized swimming may be enjoyable for a few people, but it doesn't have a positive effect on anything else.

 

Yes some schools do have the opportunity to shoot via CCF - I did something similar when I was in school. I never actually got to shoot, as I walked out long before I had the chance. There was no way I was going to continue having a bunch of ****** telling me to march, stand to attention, call them sir and all the rest of it to one day have a go with a gun! It's not a real opportunity for many people.

 

Ideally I'd say kids ought to have the chance to shoot both shotguns and rifles, though as has already been said clay shooting is very costly and difficult to organize (though I don't see what would be wrong with using the football pitches for their own shooting range).

Target shooting with rifles is easy though. To get a 25 yard indoor range suitable for a rifle is not hard. It's not perfect, but it's a start.

 

As to not trusting some kids with firearms, it's not a matter of saying 'OK big miscreant, take this gun and have some fun', with supervision there is nothing to worry about. Chances are that many 'problem' kids would do very well with firearms. I didn't exactly do well at school, but if I'd have been able to shoot, even just on a small indoor range, I think I'd have rather enjoyed it and I'd have had something to look forward to every week or so.

[Rupert]

Just imagine the risk assesment.the insurance,a large group of chattering kids and one or two adults trying to remain in authority and instill responsibility into them.

The consequenses of the "shouldnt have happened moment"will prevent it from happening.

 

All my reponses are based on my experience of school.

[Pole Star]

This post,and that other drivel you posted regarding the killers of Jamie Bulger just beggars belief.What an utterly ridiculous statement to make;you simply don't have a clue do you!

 

WELL WELL WELL thanks for your childish comment Scully ! It looks like you missed my point so I will make it easy for you to understand sonny !

I voted no why ? because if it was part of the national curriculum then it would have to be broad spectrum & avaliable to all yes ALL ! & there are children like some adults who have no business any where near FIREARMS ! .

Two lady friends of mine one in england & one in scotland work with problem kidds ie chucked out of school homeless unloved unwanted & so on ! the things they tell me upset me & I for one would not like to see kids like that with problems having access to guns & being shown how to operate then ! for reasons that should be obvious or do you need me to explain that in easy terms too ? .

 

But then of course I dont know what I am talking about ok sonny here is short history of me ! I am 53 years of age & have been shooting all my life & I am well versed in the use of firearms around the world & as a 19 year old I went from the leafy chilterns to live in the mountains of a place called EL Salvador you heard of it ? probably not !. I have shot & owned all sorts of guns from Big bore pistols to 4 & 8 bores big game rifles machine guns ect & have seen the utter misery & suffering they cause in the wrong hands ! I could tell you much more but this is not the place .

I voted no ! .

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pole Star

[Bleeh]

Let's start listing legitimate sporting activities, then let's pole to see if each one should be taught as the national curriculum.

 

• 1 Physical sports
  
  • 1.1 Air sports
    
  • 1.2 Archery
    
  • 1.3 Ball over a net games
    
  • 1.4 Basketball family
    
  • 1.5 Bat-and-ball (Safe haven)
    
  • 1.6 Baton twirling
    
  • 1.7 Board sports
    
  • 1.8 Boules
    
  • 1.9 Bowling
    
  • 1.10 Catch games
    
  • 1.11 Climbing
    
  • 1.12 Cycling
    
    • 1.12.1 Bicycle
      
    • 1.12.2 Skibob
      
    • 1.12.3 Unicycle
      

    [*]1.13 Combat sports

    • 1.13.1 Grappling
      
    • 1.13.2 Skirmish
      
    • 1.13.3 Weapons
      
    • 1.13.4 Striking
      
    • 1.13.5 Mixed or hybrid
      

    [*]1.14 Cue sports

    [*]1.15 Dance

    [*]1.16 Equine Sports

    [*]1.17 Fishing

    [*]1.18 Flying disc sports

    [*]1.19 Football family

    [*]1.20 Golf

    [*]1.21 Gymnastics

    [*]1.22 Handball Family

    [*]1.23 Hunting

    [*]1.24 Kite Sports

    [*]1.25 Mixed discipline

    [*]1.26 Musical Performance Sports

    [*]1.27 Orienteering family

    [*]1.28 Paddle sports

    • 1.28.1 Canoeing
      
    • 1.28.2 Kayaking
      
    • 1.28.3 Rafting
      
    • 1.28.4 Rowing
      

    [*]1.29 Pilota family

    [*]1.30 Racquet (or racket) sports

    [*]1.31 Remote control

    [*]1.32 Running

    [*]1.33 Sailing

    [*]1.34 Skiing

    [*]1.35 Sled sports

    [*]1.36 Shooting sports

    [*]1.37 Stacking

    [*]1.38 Stick and Ball Games

    [*]1.39 Street Stunts

    [*]1.40 Tag games

    [*]1.41 Walking

    [*]1.42 Wall-and-ball

    [*]1.43 Water sports

    • 1.43.1 Ball Sports
      
    • 1.43.2 Competitive Swimming
      
    • 1.43.3 Subsurface and recreational
      
    • 1.43.4 Diving
      

    [*]1.44 Weightlifting

    [*]1.45 Mind sports

    • 1.45.1 Card Games
      
    • 1.45.2 Speedcubing
      
    • 1.45.3 Speaking Sports
      
    • 1.45.4 Strategy Board Games
      

    [*]1.46 Motorized sports

    • 1.46.1 Auto racing
      
    • 1.46.2 Motorboat racing
      
    • 1.46.3 Motorcycle racing
      
    • 1.46.4 ATV racing
      

    [*]1.47 Miscellanea

    • 1.47.1 Animal sports
      
    • 1.47.2 Athletics (track and field)
      
    • 1.47.3 Electronic sports
      
    • 1.47.4 Endurance sports
      
    • 1.47.5 Miscellaneous sports
      
    • 1.47.6 Olympic Sports
      
    • 1.47.7 Other
      
    • 1.47.8 Skating sports
      
    • 1.47.9 Snowsports
      
    • 1.47.10 Strength sports
      

    [*]1.48 Table sports

    [*]1.49 Target sports

    [*]1.50 Team sports

    [*]1.51 Windsports

    [*]1.52 Fictional sports

  [*]2 Mind sports

  • 2.1 Card Games
    
  • 2.2 Other
    
  • 2.3 Speedcubing
    
  • 2.4 Strategy Board Games
    
  • 2.5 Competitive Video Games
    

  [*]3 Miscellanea

  • 3.1 Air sports
    
  • 3.2 Animal sports
    
  • 3.3 Athletics (track and field)
    
  • 3.4 Electronic sports
    
  • 3.5 Endurance sports
    
  • 3.6 Miscellaneous sports
    
  • 3.7 Skating sports
    
  • 3.8 Snowsports
    
  • 3.9 Strength sports
    
  • 3.10 Tables sports
    
  • 3.11 Target sports
    
  • 3.12 Team sports
    
  • 3.13 Windsports
    

 

I want to see a pole about each one please.

[HDAV]

Wind sports That was known as RE were I went to school!

[Scully]

WELL WELL WELL thanks for your childish comment Scully ! It looks like you missed my point so I will make it easy for you to understand sonny !

I voted no why ? because if it was part of the national curriculum then it would have to be broad spectrum & avaliable to all yes ALL ! & there are children like some adults who have no business any where near FIREARMS ! .

Two lady friends of mine one in england & one in scotland work with problem kidds ie chucked out of school homeless unloved unwanted & so on ! the things they tell me upset me & I for one would not like to see kids like that with problems having access to guns & being shown how to operate then ! for reasons that should be obvious or do you need me to explain that in easy terms too ? .

 

But then of course I dont know what I am talking about ok sonny here is short history of me ! I am 53 years of age & have been shooting all my life & I am well versed in the use of firearms around the world & as a 19 year old I went from the leafy chilterns to live in the mountains of a place called EL Salvador you heard of it ? probably not !. I have shot & owned all sorts of guns from Big bore pistols to 4 & 8 bores big game rifles machine guns ect & have seen the utter misery & suffering they cause in the wrong hands ! I could tell you much more but this is not the place .

I voted no ! .

Is this supposed to impress me?It just goes to prove my point...you REALLY don't have a clue what you're talking about do you!It wasn't t the fact you voted no,I have no problem with that,it was the reasons why.Absolutley ridiculous!

I am also 53,have been around guns all my life(legally and illegally)from .22 pistols up .577 Snider and everything in between,and I've been to Tel Aviv and Palestine(what a holiday that was!)My other half is qualified to work with problematic and under-priveliged kids also,as well as those with severe learning difficuilties.I am well aware of the misery guns can cause in the wrong hands,but what the hell that has to do with teaching kids the responsible use of sporting guns in a safe and tutored environment is beyond me.

You're 53?My 12 year old son wouldn't come out with comments such as those.Get a grip man!

[Pole Star]

Is this supposed to impress me?It just goes to prove my point...you REALLY don't have a clue what you're talking about do you!It wasn't t the fact you voted no,I have no problem with that,it was the reasons why.Absolutley ridiculous!

I am also 53,have been around guns all my life(legally and illegally)from .22 pistols up .577 Snider and everything in between,and I've been to Tel Aviv and Palestine(what a holiday that was!)My other half is qualified to work with problematic and under-priveliged kids also,as well as those with severe learning difficuilties.I am well aware of the misery guns can cause in the wrong hands,but what the hell that has to do with teaching kids the responsible use of sporting guns in a safe and tutored environment is beyond me.

You're 53?My 12 year old son wouldn't come out with comments such as those.Get a grip man!

Good God do you still not get the point ! who in their right mind would want to give children across the board who are or could be disturbed access to firearms ? its very simple & I do not need to impress you or any other empty skull GET A GRIP MAN ! ITS FREE ! . ps I do not have any problem with children using fire arms so long as they are not disturbed kids

 

pps you chose to insult me & my point Scully this not what this is about its about should children have access to firearms as part of the national curriculum & I voted no because I dont think it is in the public interest or perhaps you could put forward a worth while comment as to how we could sort the stable children from the unstable ones at every school in the land . ?

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pole Star

[Reece]

Due to gun licensing laws it might be a bit awkward. The schools would have to go off site to a club or something. But personally, I think it would be a good idea for it go on the curriculum. Shooting teaches discipline, and it's discipline that society seems to be lacking in at the moment.

 

Then again, discipline would probably be necessary to allow kids to use guns. Schools can't get out on trips because of paperwork and risk assessments. Imaging the risk assessments you'd need for shooting.

 

You would have to teach the kids discipline and safety very well beforehand.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Reece

[Twelver]

I voted no .although I. Think it's a nice idea.

I am an instructor with the Army Cadet Force and most of the Cadets love shooting and one of the biggest reasons for joining the ACF is to shoot .Teaching shooting in some of our schools would be dangerous and the responsibility placed on the teachers would be unwelcome to say the least. IMO it would be best for the government to further promote the Cadet forces and finance shooting thro this avenue teaching kids the pleasures of weapons handling and the joys of using firearms in a responsible safe manner. It would be a lovely society to live in where children could shoot safely at school but unfortunately I think it's to late for that.The Cadets shoot air rifles and the SA80 in a semi auto version . The instructors are trained to high standards and have to pass a 6 monthly test as do the regular forces ,this would be incredibley expensive and unpractical to manage in today's PC society!

 

 

 

.

[Pole Star]

I voted no .although I. Think it's a nice idea.

I am an instructor with the Army Cadet Force and most of the Cadets love shooting and one of the biggest reasons for joining the ACF is to shoot .Teaching shooting in some of our schools would be dangerous and the responsibility placed on the teachers would be unwelcome to say the least. IMO it would be best for the government to further promote the Cadet forces and finance shooting thro this avenue teaching kids the pleasures of weapons handling and the joys of using firearms in a responsible safe manner. It would be a lovely society to live in where children could shoot safely at school but unfortunately I think it's to late for that.The Cadets shoot air rifles and the SA80 in a semi auto version . The instructors are trained to high standards and have to pass a 6 monthly test as do the regular forces ,this would be incredibley expensive and unpractical to manage in today's PC society!

 

 

 

 

.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pole Star

[Pole Star]

Praise the lord here is some one who gets it .

[Scully]

Good God do you still not get the point ! who in their right mind would want to give children across the board who are or could be disturbed access to firearms ? its very simple & I do not need to impress you or any other empty skull GET A GRIP MAN ! ITS FREE ! . ps I do not have any problem with children using fire arms so long as they are not disturbed kids

 

pps you chose to insult me & my point Scully this not what this is about its about should children have access to firearms as part of the national curriculum & I voted no because I dont think it is in the public interest or perhaps you could put forward a worth while comment as to how we could sort the stable children from the unstable ones at every school in the land . ?

Your arrogance and ignorance astounds me.Who the hell do you think you are to judge others as stable or unstable?You obviously have no idea how the process works yet you spout your pig-ignorant short sightedness like you know what you're talking about. I am thankful that your narrow-mindedness,backward thinking and sheer puerile comments are not typical of those shooters who spend much of their free time helping some of these kids out of the situations they find themselves in through an accident of birth.You are a moron,and I don't intend to waste any more time on you.

[Pole Star]

Your arrogance and ignorance astounds me.Who the hell do you think you are to judge others as stable or unstable?You obviously have no idea how the process works yet you spout your pig-ignorant short sightedness like you know what you're talking about. I am thankful that your narrow-mindedness,backward thinking and sheer puerile comments are not typical of those shooters who spend much of their free time helping some of these kids out of the situations they find themselves in through an accident of birth.You are a moron,and I don't intend to waste any more time on you.

What is the matter with you Scully ? I made a simple straight forward point that I would not like to see the type of children like the type that killed Jamie Bolger getting access to fire arms use in school like it was mere football ! what is wrong with that comment ?? if that comment was wrong then perhaps admin would like to step in ! .

Any way the pub has just closed & you have come home too vent your anger at me ! Scully your a mere internet TROLL by the sounds of it so go to bed & sleep it off & with luck we can have nice chat in the morning when your fill of drink has worn off mate . Kind regards Pole Star nitie nite SWEETIE xxx

[NickS]

If you two don't stop arguing you will BOTH be in detention. Now get on with your work!

 

Nick

[NickS]

Some of the points raised are very valid. Most are genuine ideas from people who do think think about ways to make things happen, even if not possible in all schools. Forgetting whether or not kids can be trusted:

 

IMO small bore rifle shooting IS possible in most schools IF the investment in facilities, training and funding for specialist staff (not necessarily teachers) and equipment. However, it could only take place indoors where a stray round is not going to leave the site. Remember that not all schools have large playing fields and even when they do, look at the pracautions needed with a permission where an experienced, vetted adult shot is involved. I do not know how much a range and armoury would cost to build, plus the necessary ventilation and alarm systems, but if you then multiply that figure by the hundreds of secondary schools across the country you will begin to realise how much this is going to cost.

 

Clay shooting is impractical for most schools on site. Few have sufficient space to allow for the safe fall of shot. Broken clays would need to be collected from playing fields used for other sports (imagine playing rugby on a pitch littered with broken clays!). Going off site involves transport costs on top of the usual costs of instruction, clays and cartridges.

 

From my days teaching in independent schools, I know that the MOD provide funding for capital projects and running costs. At one, we had two retired WO1s who ran the CCF. When you look at the cuts in the Army, how can such an investment be justified in all the schools across the country?

 

Nick

 

[Scully]

What is the matter with you Scully ? I made a simple straight forward point that I would not like to see the type of children like the type that killed Jamie Bolger getting access to fire arms use in school like it was mere football ! what is wrong with that comment ?? if that comment was wrong then perhaps admin would like to step in ! .

Any way the pub has just closed & you have come home too vent your anger at me ! Scully your a mere internet TROLL by the sounds of it so go to bed & sleep it off & with luck we can have nice chat in the morning when your fill of drink has worn off mate . Kind regards Pole Star nitie nite SWEETIE xxx

There you go again!!You just don't get it at all do you?'The type that killed Jamie Bulger'!And what type would that be then Mr.Psychiatrist?Young lads from broken homes,shoved in front of the DVD to watch any old **** by a single parent who couldn't give a ****?Is that the type you mean? If you're such a good judge of character perhaps we should lock them up now?Let's just write off millions of kids who just happen to be sailing in that particular boat,who haven't been given the chance of a bit of structure,discipline and one to one attention in their lives shall we?Is that what you're suggesting?Take the time to sit down and think,REALLY THINK about what you have said,and the benefits of a structured,disciplined and professional syllabus,and the benefits it could bring to those involved,and society in general.

You could start by thinking of those best placed to run such a syllabus...and it's not BASC nor the CA.Take those blinkers off and think about it.

You really shouldn't go around making assumptions about character,you're not very good at it.I wasn't in the pub last night as I don't drink,I was out lamping with a mate.We can have a nice chat anytime you like,but I don't think your blinkered,narrow-minded attitude could cope.

[Scully]

Some of the points raised are very valid. Most are genuine ideas from people who do think think about ways to make things happen, even if not possible in all schools. Forgetting whether or not kids can be trusted:

 

IMO small bore rifle shooting IS possible in most schools IF the investment in facilities, training and funding for specialist staff (not necessarily teachers) and equipment. However, it could only take place indoors where a stray round is not going to leave the site. Remember that not all schools have large playing fields and even when they do, look at the pracautions needed with a permission where an experienced, vetted adult shot is involved. I do not know how much a range and armoury would cost to build, plus the necessary ventilation and alarm systems, but if you then multiply that figure by the hundreds of secondary schools across the country you will begin to realise how much this is going to cost.

 

Clay shooting is impractical for most schools on site. Few have sufficient space to allow for the safe fall of shot. Broken clays would need to be collected from playing fields used for other sports (imagine playing rugby on a pitch littered with broken clays!). Going off site involves transport costs on top of the usual costs of instruction, clays and cartridges.

 

From my days teaching in independent schools, I know that the MOD provide funding for capital projects and running costs. At one, we had two retired WO1s who ran the CCF. When you look at the cuts in the Army, how can such an investment be justified in all the schools across the country?

 

Nick

Now we're getting somewhere...someone who knows what he's talking about.

[CharlieT]

One of the worst things wrong with today's society are those who think that by shouting the loudest and spouting the most twaddle they can force their bigoted views on others.

 

No one is saying that every last child in the country should be let loose with a firearm without supervision.

 

We had such instruction at my school and I don't remember seeing pupils acting inappropriately or going on the rampage. The vast majority of those from school with whom I am still in contact, have continued to shoot to this very day. Fortunately the firearms act recognises this and are only to happy for young people to be granted SGC's and FAC's.

 

Quite why a poll and topic such as this has been hijacked by those who consider that all children should be deprived of the chance of formal shooting instruction just because a very small number of children have psychological problems is beyond me.