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12 bore 24g vs 28g 7 1/2,s


evo
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hi lads found some carts i,ve had a long time they are eley olympis 24gram 7,s i,m going on the clays tomorrow on the olympic trap, would it be ok using these or should i just stick with the 28gram carts i normally use,,reason i was thinking of using them is i would not use them on the pigeons so just thought i could use them on the clays,, is there really that much difference between the 24g and the 28g carts,,any help or advice ,,,,cheers evo

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i,ve not used them before j , so i,ll give them a good bash 2moro, looking forward to it bud, i,ll take 28g aswell just incase ,,regards the pheasants mate , i only shoot them with air rifles :lol: :lol: only joking, nice to hear from ya , cheers evo

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I shoot 24g on clays now (because they were on offer at £4 a box) and my scores are the same if not better than 28g loads, I think they pattern better through my gun and since they are a litle nicer to shoot I think I will stick with them (also the mrs will move from 21g to the same 24g so get a saving buying in larger volumes anyway).

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Guest cookoff013

Yes but thats only because everybody is so price sensitive, it has nothing to do with performance. More lead in the air is always going to be better.

 

maybe you should campign to the olympic games. as they are reduced to 24g loads.

 

i`m sure in your mind more lead is going to be better, but where are you going to draw the line? 2oz #9 load for skeet?

but then again faster speeds are "better" as the manufacturers are telling us. so 1800fps must surely be 1/3 better than 1100fps?

why not shoot 2500fps at 2oz loads !

 

fc is right, heavy is out.

 

as for the 4gram difference, it is virtually nothing in sizes 8 and 9.

 

my prefered clay load is 24g #8, it can almost do what a 28g load can, but at the extreme fringes where a 28g 7.5 would be an advantage is wasted on me. (especially the way i`m shooting at the moment.)

 

in america they have handicap loads of 32g #9 at 1000fps ! that is a serious shell. with in excess of 700pellets (english #9)

what some people think, at least 1 pellet might hit the target, but the other thought is "where on earth are the other 699 pellets going.???"

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hi lads , tried them out today and i must be honest i did not notice any difference at all on clays hit, must say they certainly felt a lot smoother to shoot but i,m using a very light sxs,i did two runs on the olympic, i hit 16/25 with the 24g eley olympics no 7,s and 15/25 with the gamebore 28gram 7 1/2s,,felt a hell of a lot easier shooting the eley,s so i think i will be keeping all the 28g for the pigeons, thanks for your advice all ,,,,cheers evo

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Yes but thats only because everybody is so price sensitive, it has nothing to do with performance. More lead in the air is always going to be better.

 

I can't believe this type of thinking still exists, A lifetime of shooting has ensured me that it is not how many pellets you throw but how many arrive on target without being flattened by forces within the shell including setback deformation and forcing cone-- choke deformation. Perhaps it is so much different there with the card wads and soft shot, but I find less shot, harder shot and a plastic wad give better patterns than more pellets. Not to mention the shooter fatigue associated with heavy recoil.

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Show me a 21g load that gets more pellets to arrive on target than a 24g

...................24g....................................................................................28g

...................28g....................................................................................32g

and ye shall win £1k I put up yeeeeeaaaaars ago :shifty: , just be clear I expect you to return the favour when you lose.

 

There are loads of old wives tales in shooting and many of them concern shells; more pellets driven faster blow patterns and that the reverse improves them. It doesn't, not in the real world, you can't load 2 oz 2000 fps 9's. Commercially loaded fast 28g clay loads, (particularly plastic wads) will have MORE pellets in the pattern downrange than either 24 or 21g.

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24g anyhow for the olympic disciplines mate so dont worry. Unless shoting at serious range or your one of the guys who has nothing better to do than look at holes ona sheet of old wallpaper then dont worry and crack on with your shooting mate!

 

for 99% of what people soot at, ANY shell will not change the outcome of the shot, speed, weight wad and colour included! Enjoy the low recoil and get stuck in.

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In common with most coaches, I have long ago come to the conclusion ( from my own performance diary and observing others) that light loads outperform heavier ones.

 

Reasons are simple:

 

Firstly - the pattern size is the same, so assuming you are correctly choked for the distance, what will count is how many pellets there are in the 30" circle.

 

To deliver 28g a cartridge needs more powder and this has two significant effects:-

  • Firstly it means more recoil - this causes flinching, head lifting, fatigue over a 100 competition, and lower scores.
  • Secondly, more powder "blows" patterns ballistically.

 

A good 24g eg 24g HVE Express, will deliver more effective pellets in the 30" pattern circle than a budget 28g cartridge, as the cheaper carts tend to use explosive powders that destroy the pattern shape throwing lots of wasted side flyers. Better carts use progressive powders that accelerate the load out giving less recoil and less pattern deformation.

 

This means that £ for £, you can spend the same on a cheap 28g that has less chance of actually breaking the clay as a 100 pellets may be wasted side flyers, as you can spend on a better quality 24g ( or even less on 21g) that has a nice tight definition to the shot shape with few side flyers and as many good pellets in the true pattern circle.

 

With better ballistic performance for the 24g, the shooter also has much more chance on concentrating on accurate delivery of forward allowance if they are not worried about, or re-acting to heavy recoil.

 

From an entirely personal point of view, I found that my practice performance with 24HVE's was better than my competition performance with World Cup 28s. I dropped the 28s and won the double rise in the next County Championship, and have never reverted to 28s since

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A 24gram load needs either more of the slower powder or a faster powder than the 28gram load. It also needs to generate broadly the same breech pressures to function so I disagree with that aspect of your post. I would suggest quality and hardness of the shot to be most important.

 

I was always surprised at how tightly my 24gram plastic wadded homeloads patterned. Not particularly hard shot, I believe the plastic wad that envelopes it is what is making the difference. Fibre wadded loads seem much more open.

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Fast loads blow patterns? How come all the top end quality loads are fast, don't pattern too shabby either. Percentage wise a 3/4 pattern at 40 yards is a 3/4 pattern, the only difference is you get LESS pellets inside the pattern where it counts with lower loads such as 21g or 24g. I'd be happy to test this out if you like (refer to post 12)

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Isn’t it called fashion? Didn't GT Garwood (Gough Thomas) advocate all of this stuff in the Shooting Times donkey's years ago? Probably in the 1970's. And wasn't there some sort of saying about "little powder and shot, shoot far & kill clean".

But I remember EVERYONE only used to use ONLY Eley Grand Prix 1-1/8 5 shot >>Rat to an Elephant.

Years ago my father was laughed at for loading 7shot and when I used Eley Impax 1oz-7’s in my 25inch SxS the ole boys said " you'll end up with a lot of pricked birds using that stuff".

A gun I shot with even gave me free, a load of Gevalot cartridges. “ NOT using that foreign muck”.

I did enjoy using them on high birds when I shot next in line to him. I made a point of thanking him for them.

Try Telling most Americans that a 3inch mag isn't needed to drop a walked up pheasant at twenty paces and they will look a bit strange at you. ( have a look at preserve shoot on youtube) close range waste.

As far as I’m concerned a lot of all this is in the mind. Put the lead on the target and if it’s in range then it will fall.

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I have shot 24g in a 12 for the last 7 years and 21g in my 20 bore. Has it ever cost me a target? Don't think so, not often enough to rule out the advantages..

 

It amazes me how many clients worry about choke, shot size, cartridge load, speed, wad etc. yet shoot a gun that has never fitted them, with off eye domonance uncorrected, apalling stance, garbage technique and often not even the first idea about gun holds, break zones and how to prepare for a shot.

 

Yet they can tell me their gun shoots better with 28 g 7'5's but have never tried it on a pattern plate. Amazing.

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A 24gram load needs either more of the slower powder or a faster powder than the 28gram load.

 

As a member of the BASC Ballistics Committee my info comes form the reports and studies conducted by them, plus my own experience of use, and the technical data sheets of Lylvale of whom I have been an agent since 1988.

 

While I cannot say that some cartridge manufacturers may not load their 28 / 24 variations in the way you suggest, I can find no data to support that is industry standard. I am always pleased to learn and would appreciate any manufacturers loading data that supports your view that 24g need more powder than 28g .

 

Also, BASC has conducted extensive testing of Fibre and Plastic wads under scientific conditions and published a report that concludes that, on average, and contrary to common belief, fibre is tighter than plastic all other things being equal.

 

There are a whole series of widely accepted views on shot load performances.

 

That 20b throw tighter patterns than 12b - no, they are identical.

That tight chokes have longer shot strings than open one - no, its the opposite

That plaswad is tighter than fibre - no, the opposite.

 

In each case the common view seems logical based on "hosepipe" theory - but if you research and get back to the scientific studies that have investigated these things one finds ballistics does not behave in a way we can relate to things we commonly observe, like water out a hose or smoke up a chimney.

 

As many things in ballistics do seem to work in the opposite way to logic, it may well be there are reasons to use excess powder in a lighter load, but I'd be interested to see the data set that produces that result to see how it fits in with the Lyalvale loading data I have.

 

Its reflected that wad quality improves pattern definition, and I think it very likely that loaders using more grains in 24g are using different powders and wads for specific performance and pricing reasons, - but 24 / 28g with all other aspects like for like should need less powder.

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As a member of the BASC Ballistics Committee my info comes form the reports and studies conducted by them, plus my own experience of use, and the technical data sheets of Lylvale of whom I have been an agent since 1988.

 

While I cannot say that some cartridge manufacturers may not load their 28 / 24 variations in the way you suggest, I can find no data to support that is industry standard. I am always pleased to learn and would appreciate any manufacturers loading data that supports your view that 24g need more powder than 28g .

 

Also, BASC has conducted extensive testing of Fibre and Plastic wads under scientific conditions and published a report that concludes that, on average, and contrary to common belief, fibre is tighter than plastic all other things being equal.

 

There are a whole series of widely accepted views on shot load performances.

 

That 20b throw tighter patterns than 12b - no, they are identical.

That tight chokes have longer shot strings than open one - no, its the opposite

That plaswad is tighter than fibre - no, the opposite.

 

In each case the common view seems logical based on "hosepipe" theory - but if you research and get back to the scientific studies that have investigated these things one finds ballistics does not behave in a way we can relate to things we commonly observe, like water out a hose or smoke up a chimney.

 

As many things in ballistics do seem to work in the opposite way to logic, it may well be there are reasons to use excess powder in a lighter load, but I'd be interested to see the data set that produces that result to see how it fits in with the Lyalvale loading data I have.

 

Its reflected that wad quality improves pattern definition, and I think it very likely that loaders using more grains in 24g are using different powders and wads for specific performance and pricing reasons, - but 24 / 28g with all other aspects like for like should need less powder.

 

My understanding is that for a given powder a lighter shot load has to have more powder underneath it to generate the necessary pressures because having less lead weight there is less resistance to the expanding gases. In fact I think you are way off the mark with this and confuse manufacturers using less of a faster powder for lighter loads rather than less of an equivalent powder used in heavier loads for lighter ones.

 

I doubt you have reloaded much yourself.

Edited by sitsinhedges
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yes, and the scientific reference can be found where?

 

If my view is wrong and I need to amend my advice and report back to BASC on this, I need the data set and report reference

 

Your view is your view, and mine is mine based on personal experience and from studying reloading recipes.

 

Have you ever reloaded cartridges and taken any time to measure their performance?

 

I would also very much take issue with your claim that fibre wads throw tighter patterns, that's borderline trolling.

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