% of female shooters in UK

[LeadWasp]

They got up and started doing their bit a while back just without the "demeaning pink girlishness" - and for free.

 

Have a think about the issues that have been raised rather than slapping me down for daring to criticise the cult of Victoria. Regardless of how much money they are making perhaps we should ask ourselves if this really is the image that we want to project for women in the sport. This was an honest report of their experience and to quote one of the ladies who went long "I don't want to be thought of like that".

 

As you say David some may like it some may not but with your BASC hat on, and as much as you may like the S&CBC, surely you have to be equally interested in why it repels some women.

[David BASC]

Please, I did not slap you down at all!

 

As a club they can run themselves as they see fit, its as simple as that. If they have got it so wrong how come they are growing and putting on more events? Evidently lots of women like the way it runs and what it delivers.

 

Of course it may not be for everyone as I said there is nothing stopping other groups forming for women shooters - and there are a few within BASC already, and if there is not one near you then work with others in your area to set one up, that's all I am saying.

 

David.

Edited June 26, 2014 by David BASC

[LeadWasp]

Hi David, apologies if I took it that way....the perils of electronic messaging strike again!

 

Part of my/our concern were the mixed messages the S&CBC puts out regardless of the personal experiences recounted. Even to the extent of whether it is a club or a business - I understand the latter. Surely correct messaging is essential in encouraging new participants. Genuinely (and with no ulterior motive) I would love to know how many women are 'retained' in the sport after a taster with them. Surely that is one way to assess their effectiveness as a mentoring avenue for our sport. Even if they get them in through the door without converts they are just another events business despite all the ticker tape.

 

I'm trying to persuade my partner to contribute as she spends a fair amount of time encouraging people to try out shooting. The one thing she did say before she shot out of the door was that rather than creating women's groups we should be trying to create a sport that is inclusive. There was a bit more to it than that but I guess it raises all the questions around the issue as to why it is felt necessary to bring women into the sport away from the men. Hopefully she will put it far better than I can!

Edited June 26, 2014 by LeadWasp

[HDAV]

I don't get your issue, there are lots of women only groups! Some men only ones too, if a woman tries shooting and enjoys it she will continue it if she wants to, it just seems many women are just not bothered, that's sport in general not just clay/game shooting my other half has shot (rifles, pistols, shotguns) she is a decent shot especially with .22 pistol but just isn't bothered at least 4 of her friends have tried clay shooting and enjoyed it but they just aren't bothered on going regularly. If the S&CBC can get a group of women shooting regularly then that's a positive!

 

I do seem to see more ladies at trap grounds, I think the average "shoot" puts some off, as do the men I know that's one reason my mum hasn't been since I took her for a lesson and she enjoyed it.

 

Regarding S& CBC

It's a business and seems to be growing I don't think there is a sport or organisation out there from WI to roller derby that appeals to all women, that's women they often take an instant dislike to each other, fall out and change their minds.... Especially in groups! I am hopeful that no one thinks that the S&CBC is the only opportunity for women to shoot.

Edited June 26, 2014 by HDAV

[David BASC]

Evening LeadWasp,

 

Its easy to misunderstand posts, I have certainty been guilty of that in the past! But no harm no foul

 

To the best of my knowledge the SGCB club is an unincorporated body.

 

We are working with them to put some of their members through the BASC safety officers course and from that number we want to encourage them to go forward to take up the BASC Shotgun Coaches course too, and become fully fledged BASC shotgun coaches. I know that they also run simulated game days and some go on to shoot live quarry too.

If there is a demand for further coaching, I know the grounds they use almost invariably have qualified coaches who will help, and if there is further demand I know our network of coaches are on hand to help too.

 

As I say there are other ladies groups within BASC and we are on hand to help where we can if other groups want to get set up

 

David

[ehb102]

David makes marvellous posts as always.

 

My ideal would be a fully open and equal sport for everyone. I'm not going into that here but there are hundreds of ways of making women feel unwelcome in shooting, from unwanted comments about how women look to rape jokes to rubbish loos at grounds to complaining to the ref. Yes, I've experienced all of those. Want to try and address how misogynistic men are? No! You are met with howls of protest and claims that if women want to shoot they need to fit in with what's currently there. That's the working definition of sexism.

 

We need women-only spaces. There's masses of research and writing about how and why it's important, so anyone should feel free to look it up. Supportive environments that are safe from leering or mansplaining or even the sexist jokes and unwanted comment. Why wouldn't we want women-only spaces? Why shouldn't we have them? I have no time for men saying that women shouldn't have women-only spaces when so many spaces are effectively men only because men make them so unwelcoming to women. Even in the most "welcoming" space men are inclined to dominate. Likewise, whenever you do something as a woman or for women there will always be someone saying you should do it differently. And having a women-only space does not exclude the possibility of making the main space more inclusive, so I don't understand why anyone would object to it.

 

As for the pink, I'm a realist. If women spent their entire lives being told by everything they see around them that THIS is how they should be, then if they manage to use that as leverage in a positive fashion, fair play to them. It's just a colour after all. The whole club is making lots of women feel comfortable and included. Participation is really, really hard to generate and ongoing participation is a gold dust formula.

 

Shotgun & Chelsea Bun Club is a club. We pay to be members. We have a community. It's one of the most truly inclusive communities that I've been part of for a long time, and I've met women of all ages from all walks of life through it. The coaching has done wonders for my shooting, the opportunities it puts in front of me are ones I wouldn't have had otherwise and I certainly wouldn't have continued shooting in the way that I did if I had been left on my own with nothing but Gun Club competitions and solo button practice. I know several dozen other women who feel similarly. I am very grateful that it exists and it will continue to have my support and participation even though I now shoot competition and other disciplines.

 

Shooting Times ran a piece on different women's shooting groups recently. I'm sure there's room to start another especially when talking about such a different section of the market. I'm happy to hear of any other events or invitations for women who shoot.

[FalconFN]

ehb102, what a good post.

 

Shooting is one of the few disciplines where women and men can compete but unfortunately can be one of the least welcoming to women.

[ehb102]

ehb102, what a good post.

 

Shooting is one of the few disciplines where women and men can compete but unfortunately can be one of the least welcoming to women.

 

Thank you. Your support is much appreciated.

 

My hope is that by making women feel comfortable on clay grounds and game shoots they will then feel comfortable extending their participation. It seems to be working, but the scale is small and the timescales are long.

[LeadWasp]

EHB There's a lot of stuff there that you mention that I have not said should be, nor proposed, nor thought that's what you should do so. You are also straying into areas that have nothing directly to do with my original post. I really don't want this to be associated with my posts which were primarily about women's experiences of other women because I feel like you are tarring me with a certain brush. It is awful and unacceptable that you have had first hand experience of some of the things you mention in your latest post but I wish we could stick to your original complaint as this is getting messy. You said that voicing the experiences of my friends at a S&CBC event was unfair so I thought I would expand on them as their observations are actually perfectly reasonable. As women they found the flavour of the event off-putting for the reasons above. They also felt that a certain aspect of it did women a disservice. I have first hand knowledge of the experiences of 3 generations of women in and around my family breaking gender barriers in science, engineering, the arts and sport. Those experiences include the restrictive effects that women can have on each other. As a member of the opposite sex I can see the attendees' point and am inclined to agree with them.

 

Particularly as you seem to be so closely involved I can understand you leaping to the defensive. However I foolishly thought you might actually be interested in why the S&CBC is as unappealing to some as it appeals to others - either with your club hat on or in an 'academic' sense.

 

HDAV - I didn't originally have 'an issue' I just mentioned that some ladies I knew didn't like the flavour of the S&CBC event and it all unfortunately grew from there. The only issue that has arisen has to do with a confusing and incomplete presentation - for example even EHB doesn't know whether they are a club or a business. However it appears the Club (sic) must remain inviolate!

Edited June 27, 2014 by LeadWasp

[ehb102]

Actually, LeadWasp, it appears that you are taking what I write far more personally than I do anything you write. You wrote about the S&CBC not being "serious" about drawing women into the sport in any committed way, and I question this as my only comprehension of your words was that "serious" meant competition. You corrected me on that, and as I understand it your view, or the views of those you represent are that they don't like what the S&CBC is doing because of the way they are doing it. I understand that point of view, and I simply think they are entitled to not take any part of it if it is not to their taste. I also understand that they think that the way S&CBC is going about things is wrong, and there I disagree, I disagree that it is wrong to do it and I disagree that S&CBC is not achieving what it set out to do. I will continue to disagree that this is the best way to get women into shooting until someone points me to an initiative that works more effectively. I stand in support of women-only spaces, and in support of presenting things in the way women feel comfortable, even if I personally wish things were different.

 

I chose not to address your points on if S&CBC is a club or a business because David did so, and it didn't need saying twice, nor did I feel that I particularly needed to prove that I knew this. Nor do I have to prove anything about my interest, my membership or knowledge on the subject. This is now simply point scoring and therefore pointless.

 

I understand what you said, I don't agree with the viewpoints made, although they were interesting to hear, and I don't think they will inform anything S&CBC does because those holding that viewpoint are obviously not inside the target market for the current service. I will look into any women's shooting initiative presented to me with great interest. I haven't seen any in my area from anyone other that S&CBC, and one from a shooting ground. If there are any more serious out there, bring them on.

[AlistairB]

For an alternative, try http://www.femmes-fatales.co.uk/

 

AB

[Beretta06]

Are gender restrictive clubs allowed under modern equality laws?

[HDAV]

Are gender restrictive clubs allowed under modern equality laws?

Well you still cant have men at an ann summers party... so i guess so!

[Beretta06]

Well you still cant have men at an ann summers party... so i guess so!

 

Yes you can - but not mixed sex, I believe. If you have a male Demonstrator it is allowed

[grrclark]

ehb102, i confess that when reading your post about needing 'women only spaces' that my first inclination was to feel aggrieved by this, it shouldn't have to be necessary, however I absolutely do accept that it is necessary for the reasons you described and i guess ultimately that is what i feel aggrieved by, that the environment for women in shooting can be hostile, dismissive, patronising and actually just quite simply offensive.

 

Sadly this is true in many more environments than just shooting.

 

One example where I think having a "women only space" has been or can be effective is in golf. Most clubs have a dedicated ladies section, just because in that environment that men and woman can't really compete from a level standing due to simple physiology, men typically hit the ball further than women.

 

The most successful ladies sections, in my experience, are the ones who go beyond just having a separate section due to the logistical requirements to have one, i.e. the ones that actually promote a women only space in both the social side where golf just happens to be something they have in common as well as the competitive sporting side.

 

In that respect i think the S&CBC is promoting that same ethos, shooting is something that the ladies have in common, but offer a wider social side therefor probably more attractive to a wider group of ladies who want to shoot, but not just be focussed on competition. It won't be for everyone, but my thinking is that it opens the door to an awful lot more ladies than it shuts out.

 

In many respects any environment that has competition as the principle underlying element actually builds a barrier to entry, newcomers to the sport can be put off or intimidated by competition or thinking they will be judged. If people are not used to competition they also need a dedicated space to develop and grow confidence, similar in many respects to your women only spaces.

 

Once that confidence has been developed they can cross into the main space with much less anxiety or trepidation.

 

Shooting is fairly unique that men and women can compete on a completely level standing, providing both can point the gun in the right place then physiology ceases to be an issue. That really is something that should be embraced to promote inclusion, but you're right, there is a long way to go on that front.

 

Thanks for making the post.

[ehb102]

Are gender restrictive clubs allowed under modern equality laws?

 

Yes, under certain conditions. It is not unlawful for a club to restrict membership on the grounds of a protected characteristic (such as age or gender). Of course you have to meet the legal definition of "club". . All very dry, but there are some very good publications about it on the government website. A business is completely different.

 

 

In many respects any environment that has competition as the principle underlying element actually builds a barrier to entry, newcomers to the sport can be put off or intimidated by competition or thinking they will be judged. If people are not used to competition they also need a dedicated space to develop and grow confidence, similar in many respects to your women only spaces.

 

Once that confidence has been developed they can cross into the main space with much less anxiety or trepidation.

 

Shooting is fairly unique that men and women can compete on a completely level standing, providing both can point the gun in the right place then physiology ceases to be an issue. That really is something that should be embraced to promote inclusion, but you're right, there is a long way to go on that front.

 

Thanks for making the post.

 

Well, thanks for your thoughtful and well reasoned response. It's pretty much how I see things. I particularly like your point about newcomers and competition.

[Beretta06]

 

Yes, under certain conditions. It is not unlawful for a club to restrict membership on the grounds of a protected characteristic (such as age or gender). Of course you have to meet the legal definition of "club". . All very dry, but there are some very good publications about it on the government website. A business is completely different.

 

 

 

Well, thanks for your thoughtful and well reasoned response. It's pretty much how I see things. I particularly like your point about newcomers and competition.

This is perhaps where I get confused. I thought being a male only club (golf springs to mind) is regularly challenged and overturned. So, could I have a male only club, equally could I have a white heterosexual police group, similar to the black, gay & lesbian police group, or would people cry discriminatory???

[LeadWasp]

My partner, one of the attendees I mention has decided to write a reply and here is what she says.

"

First off, I wholeheartedly agree that initiatives to bring women into shooting are a good thing. Likewise, days out with ‘the girls’ are good fun – of course they are – and they have a very different atmosphere to a ‘co-ed’ day. They have their place, exactly as lad’s trips do.

 

However, I have real concerns that a risk exists in over-emphasising a ‘need’ for all-women environments because we actually do the whole sport a disservice by painting it as somewhere that is too male-dominated for women to easily walk into. On the contrary, we need to encourage all parts of the sport to be more open and welcoming to ensure that it’s easy for women to participate wherever they go.

 

I think there’s also a risk that focussing on the fashion and girliness side of things does women no favours when they do go on a more general shooting day – if the men with whom we are shooting perceive that we need those things to be interested in the sport then we have an even bigger fight on our hands to gain acceptance. That doesn’t mean there’s no place for fashion – let’s face it, the men can be as keen on the latest shooting jacket as we are – but it shouldn’t eclipse the shooting.

 

I think we also run the risk of corralling women in shooting into all-female enclaves. Someone earlier in the thread suggested that if I didn’t like the way that one group does it, then I should start up another all-women group. My point is, that shouldn’t be necessary. I accept that some women find it easier to start out in an all-female environment – but we need to be sure that we’re encouraging women to move outside of that arena and to discover opportunities to integrate into the wider sport – be that on a clay ground or a game shoot. There are plenty of sports where, as grrclark pointed out, it is physiologically impossible for there to be a level playing field – shooting is not one of them so let’s emphasise that.

 

I participate in shooting because, as well as the challenge of shooting, I like the camaraderie that goes with it, the social side of things and the opportunity to meet men and women from all walks of life. I want to be accepted as an equal (and, in my experience, always have been) because I enjoy going shooting – so let’s do more to encourage that.

 

Shooting has enough battles to fight – against perceptions of elitism, against those who are anti-field sports and those who think there should be ever more controls on gun ownership. To win those battles the sport needs to present itself as inclusive, welcoming, classless, and (though I hate the phrase) in favour of equal opportunities. Let’s not create more divisions amongst ourselves by presenting one group as needing special treatment because the wider world’s not playing nice.

 

Equally, dispelling the myths of elitism are hardly made easier if there are high profile and constant references to head girls, prefects and everything being ‘super’ this and ‘super’ that. It may be intended as tongue in cheek, but it’s very easily misinterpreted. Nor do awards for ‘best hair’, while probably intended as fun, help us be taken seriously by the male majority in this sport. We’re most of us professional women – let’s act like it. In every other part of our lives we expect to be taken seriously on face value, why should shooting be any different?"

[FalconFN]

Interesting post Mrs LeadWasp. I agree with some of what you say - particularly about making shooting more inclusive (to everyone, not just women) but that isn't happening and there is no pressure to do so so things are unlikely to change. I would also counter a couple of points: firstly, why is it necessary for women only shooting clubs to gain acceptance from anyone? Why not just enjoy the shooting in a way that makes you happy? Which leads me on to the second point, can the two not coexist happily together? Surely if you feel happier in a mixed gender club then great, if not the equally great, join a club that fits rather than fitting into a club to join.

 

I should add that I have no inclination to join a club of any sort and the clay shooting we do is rare, informal and at a friends farm, which is how my wife and I, and the kids, like it.

 

All the best.

[ehb102]

This is perhaps where I get confused. I thought being a male only club (golf springs to mind) is regularly challenged and overturned. So, could I have a male only club, equally could I have a white heterosexual police group, similar to the black, gay & lesbian police group, or would people cry discriminatory? ??

 

It's the use of the word "club" that confuses people. Legally a golf club for example will be a limited company or if it doesn't own property it might be an association. They are very different entities under law. The publication at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85018/private-clubs.pdf is quite helpful.

 

I've read MrsLeadWasp's response and have taken time to think about it. I appreciate her writing it, so LeadWasp, please pass on my personal thanks. I simply don't agree with MrsLeadWasp on several key points. There's a great difference between "fair" and "equal" opportunities and there's a lot to be done before most women get to the stage that they can simply turn up at a shooting ground with the confidence that they are as welcome there as anyone else. It's great for anyone who is that knowledgeable and confident, but speaking as one of the most privileged women in terms of everything from education to confidence (sadly this doesn't really cover money!) I found starting shooting quite hard and my first competition nearly put me off for life. I just won't say that that women shouldn't be doing it this way, they should do it a different way. It's not individual women that need to change what they are doing for things to change.

 

I agree with some of what you say - particularly about making shooting more inclusive (to everyone, not just women) but that isn't happening and there is no pressure to do so so things are unlikely to change. I would also counter a couple of points: firstly, why is it necessary for women only shooting clubs to gain acceptance from anyone? Why not just enjoy the shooting in a way that makes you happy? Which leads me on to the second point, can the two not coexist happily together? Surely if you feel happier in a mixed gender club then great, if not the equally great, join a club that fits rather than fitting into a club to join.

 

FalconFN, very well put.

[Beretta06]

"There's a great difference between "fair" and "equal" opportunities and there's a lot to be done before most women get to the stage that they can simply turn up at a shooting ground with the confidence that they are as welcome there as anyone else. It's great for anyone who is that knowledgeable and confident, but speaking as one of the most privileged women in terms of everything from education to confidence (sadly this doesn't really cover money!) I found starting shooting quite hard and my first competition nearly put me off for life. I just won't say that that women shouldn't be doing it this way, they should do it a different way. It's not individual women that need to change what they are doing for things to change".

 

PLEASE don't think this is a 'woman only' issue. I know many timid men who are terrified of the 'manly barracking' approach that is common in male dominated areas.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Beretta06

[welshwarrior]

Well my 2p worth I look after a few shoots in a rather male dominated area of the world the British Army's Infantry which is closed to women full stop, we had clerk medic and chefs who could be women.

 

I found the only way to get wife's (most Army wife are far from timid) involved was ladies days after a few ladies only shoots some but not most had the confidence to take on the men on normal shoot days, but a lot where not confident in a testosterone rich environment. I have seen this outside as well, I have now taught more women to shoot than men.

 

I found it easier for ladies to get involved in the Home Counties than in Staffordshire for example and it seems to be events like ladies days like Bisley's Purdey's and Holland and Hollands as well as Bun days that help get the interest and confidence up.

Edited June 29, 2014 by welshwarrior

[victorismyhero]

is it the "sexisim" that is no doubt present to some extent, though I have never seen anything nasty, more ribbing than anything, or is it womens heightened sensitivity to it?

I have seen plenty of blokes getting some severe stick at various places.

My missus is learning to shoot, and is doing damn well thanks to a superb coach...yep she gets a bit of stick, but by gum, can she give it back...and in spades ful....

Me? I leave her to "get on with it" and she enjoys every minute of it, even to the point of going off on her own to crack a few clays....

 

are we seeing a "symptom" of "taking oneself too seriously"...or are us "cheshire chaps" simply more polite and inclusive?

[100milesaway]

Goodness me, I have just waded through 2 and a half pages of dross. I have been shooting for 20 years sometimes meeting up with friends, sometimes shooting on my own. I most certainly have never felt the need of a club just for ladies. This seems to me to be a very contrived way of learning to shoot. What the hell is wrong with just getting in your car and driving to a shoot and shooting, what is so wrong with just going and booking yourself in with a coach for a couple of hours. I personally can't think of anything worse than joining a group of ladies to go shooting, I'm sure most of them would bore the pants off me.Even when I was learning, I felt made welcome by everyone I met and had lots of encouragement to up my game by lots of enthuasiastic gents.If these lasses feel that they are afraid to step out of their comfort zone, then they should stick to knitting, i don't want my sport spoiled by a load of wingeing pinkies...... from Auntie.

Edited June 29, 2014 by 100milesaway

[Scully]

Goodness me, I have just waded through 2 and a half pages of dross. I have been shooting for 20 years sometimes meeting up with friends, sometimes shooting on my own. I most certainly have never felt the need of a club just for ladies. This seems to me to be a very contrived way of learning to shoot. What the hell is wrong with just getting in your car and driving to a shoot and shooting, what is so wrong with just going and booking yourself in with a coach for a couple of hours. I personally can't think of anything worse than joining a group of ladies to go shooting, I'm sure most of them would bore the pants off me.Even when I was learning, I felt made welcome by everyone I met and had lots of encouragement to up my game by lots of enthuasiastic gents.If these lasses feel that they are afraid to step out of their comfort zone, then they should stick to knitting, i don't want my sport spoiled by a load of wingeing pinkies...... from Auntie.

Thank goodness! Sanity prevails.