Merseyside Firearms Unit

[wymberley]

We're told on another thread that, (BASC are) "resisting compulsory medical reports - successfully".

 

Has anyone told Sid?

 

 

 

I'll get me coat!

[Scully]

We're told on another thread that, (BASC are) "resisting compulsory medical reports - successfully".

 

Has anyone told Sid?

 

 

 

I'll get me coat!

Funny that, cos Mike Eveleigh told me that 'compulsory medical reports are coming' and 'there is nothing we (BASC) can do about it'.

 

Well, that's that bridge well and truly burned!

[wymberley]

Funny that, cos Mike Eveleigh told me that 'compulsory medical reports are coming' and 'there is nothing we (BASC) can do about it'.

 

Well, that's that bridge well and truly burned!

Yep, meanwhile the poor old OP (sidawson) is still waiting.

[HDAV]

As I understand it the previous govt totally screwed the pooch on GP contracts and their is nothing stopping a gp charging whatever they fancy or refusing these requests on "suitability" and the GMC were recommending the refuse, so if it merely a copy of medical history that has to be reviewed by the force medical officer then isn't this simply a case of logging into the new NHS computer and pressing print?

 

My renewal has gone in..... Lets see what happens...

[Kes]

I'm not sure I'd be happy with any plod accessing my medical records and trying to interpret them without any medical knowledge. Hardly a recipe for successful public protection.

Anyone know what BASC's actual position is as I have a few days membership to run ?

 

By the way Mick, QED also says in the Wikipedia definition what I meant - just read a bit more.

What maths did you study at Uni? It says, in addition to maths and philosophical proofs - "The abbreviation thus signals the completion of the proof." Thats why I put QED under your post where you again failed to capitalise, use spaces or punctuate.

Not quite the university education I had - mate.

[David BASC]

What I posted on the other thread is this:

 

BASC are:

 

Resisting compulsory medical reports - successfully

Meeting with ACPO to drive a uniform and fair approach

Meeting with the Home Office to get full support of this and clarity in the Guidance

Dealing at Ch Constable level with authorities that try to introduce blanket policies

Running training course in constabularies

Dealing on a case by case basis with members who have issues

Using some of the top lawyers and barristers specialising in firearms law to ***** cases

Challenging by way of legal appeal in cases where the police have acted wrongly

 

The vast majority of applications and renewals go through without a hitch and without any further investigation needed, only when the applicant writes something on their form or says something at interview, or in some other way is brought to the attention of the licencing teams which casts some doubt on their suitability to own firearms will further investigation be warranted, that's they way its always been hasn't it?

 

The only thing that has changed recently is the disagreement between the BMA and ACPO as to who pays in the event of a medical report being requested, and that specific issue needs more work, and that's exactly what BASC are doing.

 

David

[Kes]

this is the response back from basc about them wanting me to pay for the report

Mr Dawson, that is the current policy according to Home office guidance, the law does not require anybody in particular to pay for the report, the police deem that as you are wanting a certificate you should furnish them with sufficient details for them to determine whether you are a danger to public safety or not as required by the law.

A GP should hopefully not charge his patient but if they do the cost will not be paid by the police.

The medical situation is under review with the Home office and interested parties such as BASC, so we expect some changes in the future to the better.

I hope this clarifies?

Not quite what you said David either previously or in your last post - tell me how this means successfully or is membership the issue?

[David BASC]

On the contrary Kes, the reply you reposed from the BASC firearms department tally with what I have posted.

 

BASC is resisting compulsory medical reports from doctors for each and every applicant for a new or renewal certificate, some forces have, in effect, tried to implement such blanket policies and BASC has successfully fought these off.

 

Under the old HO guidance it was clear that if the police wanted a medical report from the applicants doctor because there was something on the application, or said at interview, or came to their attention, they, the police, had to pay. Under the new guidance that have recently been released, this clear directive was removed, and ACPO have now made it clear to senior officers that the police wont pay. This is the sticking point.

 

As I and the BASC firearms team have said, there is more to do on this, its still under review and BASC are still discussing with ACPO and the HO this very important issue.

 

And I repeat, the vast majority of applications and renewals go through without any requests from the police for further medical information, over and above what we have to declare on the form.

[Kes]

On the contrary Kes, the reply you reposed from the BASC firearms department tally with what I have posted.

 

BASC is resisting compulsory medical reports from doctors for each and every applicant for a new or renewal certificate, some forces have, in effect, tried to implement such blanket policies and BASC has successfully fought these off.

 

Under the old HO guidance it was clear that if the police wanted a medical report from the applicants doctor because there was something on the application, or said at interview, or came to their attention, they, the police, had to pay. Under the new guidance that have recently been released, this clear directive was removed, and ACPO have now made it clear to senior officers that the police wont pay. This is the sticking point.

 

As I and the BASC firearms team have said, there is more to do on this, its still under review and BASC are still discussing with ACPO and the HO this very important issue.

 

And I repeat, the vast majority of applications and renewals go through without any requests from the police for further medical information, over and above what we have to declare on the form.

So David, we are to take from this that every request for additional medical information, based upon a criterion or criteria determined by the police to be necessary for public safety they are JUSTIFIED AND ALLOWED to do and BASC accepts this?

How many cases has BASC looked at in which have been referred to it for precisely this reason and not simply because they can ?

You say the vast majority go through without problems - at the moment, have BAS noticed a trend in any direction - the straw polling on here seems to indicate increasing numbers, assuming they are not all 'blanket requests' which "BASC has successfully fought off" . Which forces ?

Everyone else can see the threat but BASC are seemingly covering their position by suggesting that there are few additional requests.

How many were there 2 years ago and how many are likely in the future, given the risk averse nature of police decision taking and the lack of cost to the police ?

Do I need one if applying for a renewal, post divorce or job change if I mention this at interview. If I see the doctor due to stress but mention in my police interview simply that I feel pressurised at the moment? Will depression, willingly offered as it should be, generate the need for a detailed psychiatric report because they have this freedom ?

What may once have been passed without further examination by police who knew their job will generate an automatic request for additional medical info at the shooters expense.

 

I perhaps want BASC to say no ! there is absolutely no justification for this based on the statistics from 200-2010 and mean it.

We all know the recent cases which were police failures NOT failures of medical information. Is there one instance which might have changed an outcome where solely medical information lacking was the cause in the last 10 years, I doubt it.

BASC should continue to hold its present course and then explain it was something about which they could do nothing, like lead(shortly) etc.

Dont bother to answer it doesnt really matter, (the heavy sarcasm here is not for you David but all those who will become disenfranchised).

[David BASC]

No, not at all, I am not saying that every request for a medical report is justified. I do not have the exact figures to hand, but we have certainly looked into dozens of such requests that members have made us aware of.

 

It is fair to say that some forces have become much more risk averse in the last 12-18 months, Durham is a good example, and where these cases come to light we hold meeting with the senior officers to try and sort it out, not just for our members but for the benefit of all shooters in that area.

 

You asked a specific question about your renewal, I believe you are in Cheshire. In my experience Cheshire are more relaxed about cases of mild depression / anxiety and divorce. I have never heard of someone having to get a medical report simply because they change jobs.

 

BASC have indeed said NO to ACPO and the HO and to constabularies to increased medical reports on application or renewal, are not needed. As you say the statistics back this up.

[Kes]

No, not at all, I am not saying that every request for a medical report is justified. I do not have the exact figures to hand, but we have certainly looked into dozens of such requests that members have made us aware of.

 

It is fair to say that some forces have become much more risk averse in the last 12-18 months, Durham is a good example, and where these cases come to light we hold meeting with the senior officers to try and sort it out, not just for our members but for the benefit of all shooters in that area.

 

You asked a specific question about your renewal, I believe you are in Cheshire. In my experience Cheshire are more relaxed about cases of mild depression / anxiety and divorce. I have never heard of someone having to get a medical report simply because they change jobs.

 

BASC have indeed said NO to ACPO and the HO and to constabularies to increased medical reports on application or renewal, are not needed. As you say the statistics back this up.

David, my references to "I" were rhetorical. These questions were not specific to me or my renewal, since I can handle that. I've never needed BASC's help thanks to PW.

I am also quite relaxed about almost everything - recently.

 

A point for Cranfield, in response. Tilting at windmills is, I agree, pointless.

As a metaphor, not my first choice, since persistence where change is possible is neither pointless nor so obviously unproductive.

Remember Don Quixote, although fictional, was a 'hero of the Spanish nobility' and attempting to revive chivalry as a lost ethic.

The book in which he is characterised, is so influential that it is still revered today as possibly the most influential Spanish book ever.

I dont profess to be a hero but I am trying to revive something.

Cheers.

[sidawson]

Sorry been in America last few weeks, enjoying there somewhat more relaxed gun restrictions, got back to a few emails from merseyside saying they can't continue till they get medical report, doctor says he can't give one till he gets previous medical records from old doctor (as haven't been the docs for nearly 4 years) told merseyside this to which they said we need the report before we can continue processing the app, best of all med report is 100 quid from my docs just to tell them no med history in last 4 years lol

Edited September 12, 2014 by sidawson

[David BASC]

If you declared a medical condition on your application form than the police may wish this to be investigated, if you did not , then it seems clear the police have ignored the HO guidance and not properly risk assessed your application in this context

[sidawson]

I put down work related stress 4 years ago and put in notes that finished that job at same time and haven't been the doctors since, one of the questions they are asking on the letter is if I am still on medication surely the fact not seen a doctor in 4 years answers that as how would I get the medication? And to say they can't do any of the other stages in the mean while as I have told them it will take a while as new doctor has said nothing can be done until he receives previous medical records which can take a long time does seem daft as they could do everything else while waiting for this.

 

 

note to david, Merseyside have stated in latest email "In accordance with the Home Office Guidance this is a requirement for anyone declaring stress to provide a GPs report"

 

this doesn't sound like a risk assessment by them but just a flat oh something is listed lets make them send a gp report

Edited September 12, 2014 by sidawson

[Scully]

Regardless of what you put down, there is no obligation on you to provide a GP's medical report, nor pay for it, but there is also nothing to prevent your licensing authority from requesting this, and as there is also nothing your shooting organisation can/will do to alter this, you are more or less on your own I'm afraid. The decision, or not, to comply is up to you. If you fail to comply there is nothing your licensing authority can do but seek the information themselves , but they will huff and puff and drag their feet unless you personally dig in your heels and make a stand. It would appear it will become in time, just another expensive hoop we are forced to jump through as a matter of course, regardless of what is or isn't declared on an application. The responsibility and onus is on the Police to grant a SGC if there is no reason to deny (and HO guidance specifies this) and not on the applicant to prove they are worthy.

The NGO's advice is to ask for the badge number/name of the person making the request, and the licensing authority (Northumberland, Dumfries etc) and the NGO will take it from there.

[Kes]

Quite a proactive response from NGO up to now.

[Scully]

 

 

 

note to david, Merseyside have stated in latest email "In accordance with the Home Office Guidance this is a requirement for anyone declaring stress to provide a GPs report"

 

this doesn't sound like a risk assessment by them but just a flat oh something is listed lets make them send a gp report

I have looked through the latest issue ( I can find ) of HO Guidance as per Firearms and Shotgun Applications (June 2014) and can find no such statement as above other than the statement that once an applicant has signed the application to the effect that they give the Police/Licensing authority to contact an applicants GP, it is then 'open' to the Police to contact an applicants GP. I can find no mention of the onus for this information to be placed upon the applicant at all, in either a shotgun or firearm application. So unless the HO Guidance has been updated since June 2014, and amended as described above by Merseyside Police, it would appear they are telling you porkies.

[Kes]

Which of course they can, until someone stops them !