got cartridges today then asked to taken a copy of my sgc

[rogcal]

One aspect of the requirement to allow a copy of your SGC being made is how safely is that copy kept.

 

If the copies are kept in a locked safe then OK but if not then there is always the chance that an unauthorised person could get hold of them and have knowledge of your address and by virtue of that where you store your firearms.

 

I go to great lengths to ensure that no one knows that I keep guns at home particularly as we live very remotely and could make an ideal target for a late night visit by a gang intent of relieving me of my guns by any means possible.

 

It may be an overreaction on my part but I take I and my family's security and safety very seriously and anything that could increase the risk to that needs to be proportional and I can see no sound reason why a copy should be made and potentially kept in an insecure environment.

 

I would have no problem with a copy being made if my photo, name and address were redacted, leaving only the cert number which should keep the FEO happy as he would be able to cross reference it to my details back at the office.

[STOTTO]

If the FEO is making this demand on the shop, have him (FEO) send the shop a letter stating why he requires a copy of a customers ticket and then the shop can present this to the customer in case there is any hasle. Although there may be no legal requirment for this it may help keep the peace.

 

Correct me if I am wrong as I only have a shotgun certificate and not a FAC. do you have to record rounds bought on both the shops records and on your FAC when buying.

 

My immediate thought is that is that the particular FEO should be required to put his demand on official police headed paper you can then ask for a photo copy of this from the shop in question, this should not be a problem for them as they can do this whilst copying your certificate. Then you can forward a copy of the FEO’s letter to the BASC for their attention.

There again, ‘Pigs might Fly’!!

[Gordon R]

rogcal - decent post.

 

Whilst I have objected to Building Societies and Banks copying my driving licence, I have willingly allowed an RFD to retain details of my shotgun cert. I was my choice. I trust him and he keeps the information secure.

 

Incidentally, I have never understood why Banks and Building Societies want to keep copies. They will open up an account to almost any fraudster who choses to allow them to abet their chosen fraud. They don't check the originals properly, let alone a copy.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Gordon R

[HDAV]

I would have no problem with a copy being made if my photo, name and address were redacted, leaving only the cert number which should keep the FEO happy as he would be able to cross reference it to my details back at the office.

 

Why take a copy??? If the RFD wanted to take note of the cert number that is different to copying the cert.

 

If the FEO can't trust the trust the RFD then there is a big problem!

[Piebob]

also in case anyone is unsure , you may also give anyone ( as long as there are over 18 yrs of age ) your SGC and a letter of authorisation from you . and they can legally go into a gun shop and buy shotgun cartridge's on your behalf .

 

like I said you don't have to be a cert holder to buy / store / sell shotgun shells as long as they fall into the section 2 category

 

see below .. section 4

 

a) persons to whom firearms and ammunition may be sold or transferred (section 3(2) of the 1968 Act and section 5(2) of the 1988 Act) namely;

 

 

 

1) a person producing a firearm certificate authorising them to acquire that firearm or section 1 ammunition;

 

2) a registered firearms dealer;

 

3) in the case of a shotgun, a person with a current shotgun certificate or a firearm certificate holder who possesses a section 1 shotgun;

 

4) in the case of section 2 (shotgun) ammunition, someone who produces another person’s valid shotgun certificate, together with written authority from the certificate holder to allow them to purchase or acquire the ammunition;

 

5) someone who shows that by virtue of the Act they are entitled to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition without a certificate

Point number 3 quite clearly demonstrates that you DO need to have a SGC to buy shells anywhere other than perhaps a clay ground. I don't understand how you keep coming to the completely opposite conclusion.

[Guest stevo]

Point number 3 quite clearly demonstrates that you DO need to have a SGC to buy shells anywhere other than perhaps a clay ground. I don't understand how you keep coming to the completely opposite conclusion.

read it again , point 3 it is relating to someone buying section 1 ammo !! ie slugs ect ect

 

point 4 is relating to section 2 ammo .

Edited August 28, 2014 by stevo

[Piebob]

read it again , point 3 it is relating to someone buying section 1 ammo !! ie slugs ect ect

 

point 4 is relating to section 2 ammo .

No. The first half of the sentence in point 3 is effectively saying - "to buy shells you need to be a SGC holder."

 

The second part of the sentence is saying - "but there may be people who want to buy shells who don't have an SGC. in that case they will have their shotgun on an FAC under section 1.

 

Point 4 is there to explain how you can get another person to buy shells with your SGC and authority, without you being present.

 

Question for you then: what is the point in having point number 5? It suggests that some people (very few) may be able to purchase without having a ticket.

[seeker]

Seems copy paste has some strange effects but the actual section without adds, alters, or amends can be found here

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/45/section/5

Seems to be clear that to be sold shotgun cartridges you have to have a SGC or be one of the exemptions. And since the seller is liable it would explain their wish to SEE your SGC?

Looking back at earlier posts the varying reference numbers/layouts suggest different sources of info (perhaps a training handbook ? ) Probably explains lawyers fees!

Edited August 29, 2014 by seeker

[Scully]

I don't think anyone is denying that you are required to show your SGC to purchase shotgun cartridges, but there is no requirement anywhere for it to be photocopied by your RFD, regardless of what your FEO may claim.

[seeker]

As Scully says there's no mention of photocopies only the SGC 'being produced'. And reading the section only the original is good enough !

[Kes]

I don't think anyone is denying that you are required to show your SGC to purchase shotgun cartridges, but there is no requirement anywhere for it to be photocopied by your RFD, regardless of what your FEO may claim.

Succinctly put and correct - however I would add if nobody challenges FEO's we get this. On the principle that you get the FEO's you deserve, every issue of concern should be the subject of complaint. We would then perhaps see less 'chuck and chance it' tactics from forces, and a better educated, understanding and 'national service standard' applied.

[Guest stevo]

No. The first half of the sentence in point 3 is effectively saying - "to buy shells you need to be a SGC holder."

 

The second part of the sentence is saying - "but there may be people who want to buy shells who don't have an SGC. in that case they will have their shotgun on an FAC under section 1.

 

Point 4 is there to explain how you can get another person to buy shells with your SGC and authority, without you being present.

 

Question for you then: what is the point in having point number 5? It suggests that some people (very few) may be able to purchase without having a ticket.

Which ever way you look at it . Section 4 still says how it ok to authorise some else who has NOT got a sgc to buy section 2 shells on your behalf without you being present . So like I said you do not need a sgc to buy . Sell . Or aquire section 2 shells .

[Sussexboy]

Which ever way you look at it . Section 4 still says how it ok to authorise some else who has NOT got a sgc to buy section 2 shells on your behalf without you being present . So like I said you do not need a sgc to buy . Sell . Or aquire section 2 shells .

BUT..... that other person is using your certificate and your written authority to buy the section 2 shells. So, no certificate equals no shells. Therefore a certificate needs to be produced to buy the shells unless you are one of the rare people who can prove under the act to be authorised to purchase without holding a certificate.

[Guest stevo]

I give up haha . Crack on lads

[HDAV]

BUT..... that other person is using your certificate and your written authority to buy the section 2 shells. So, no certificate equals no shells. Therefore a certificate needs to be produced to buy the shells unless you are one of the rare people who can prove under the act to be authorised to purchase without holding a certificate.

Or you buy them at a clay ground.....

[Chris Bb]

SCATS enter SGC details into their computer every time you buy cartridges there. I wouldn't mind if they kept some sort of database, but every time? Why?

[HDAV]

SCATS enter SGC details into their computer every time you buy cartridges there. I wouldn't mind if they kept some sort of database, but every time? Why?

if its the serial number then that's fine, different to a photocopy of the whole document.

[nathan83]

Where I get mine they enter the FAC certificate number I think every time I buy ammo, I'll have to keep an eye on that because I know they did enter it but never taken any notice of whether they still do or if it's just the first time. but bought a load of cartridges yesterday and they just glance at the SGC

[HDAV]

For FAC ammo they have to record every sale for Shotgun ammo they don't. Just need to see it.

[fenboy]

I have been to the same shop today , there is now a notice on the door saying certificates need to be "shown" to purchase cartridges

Nothing about them taking a copy .

Edited September 6, 2014 by fenboy