fenboy Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 If its the man I think I am surprised because I know him to be very straight talking. I am not against correction as I say I think it essential in stock breaking but I do feel on recall its often less than wise ( I might sometimes use a verbal "Oi!" but its not my own belief to correct rather to encourage via reward, food a stoke a nice word or even daft as it sounds being sent off to play). Your dog has given you the clue on the stop, use reward based training till the habit is such it don't need to think about it perhaps. I know some think this wrong but you can train a hawk to come back like this let alone a dog and you try chastising a hawk Like it is though nobody can train a dog on the internet, I should get on the phone to the guy who has seen you both together. If its who I think it is I bet he will get the dog delivering in a week - fortnight to him placed residential. Well you would be wrong , he had him over two months residential and did not succeed , he found him a very difficult dog to work with though he could see he had the potential to be very good , unfortunately I could not keep throwing £115 a week at the dog while not seeing the progress i would like, there comes a time when you have to cut your loses and make the most of what you have , which is what I am trying to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) You were sceptical at first?. You watch Openshaw use them and were sceptical?. Do you know something he doesn't?. How ftchs have you made up?. How many ftw have you got?. How many trials have you finished?.Isn't that like a lad on a skateboard saying Lewis Hamilton could have taken a corner a bit faster? Actually to be fair Millomite is extremely good with the dogs. Anybody's going to be sceptical to begin with (how does a few boards placed 3" off the ground help?) (although I thrashed his *** at our first test ) (kidding, Scott ) Waiting for him to do the same at our first trial eeeeekkkkk!! Edited August 28, 2014 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Well you would be wrong , he had him over two months residential and did not succeed , he found him a very difficult dog to work with though he could see he had the potential to be very good , unfortunately I could not keep throwing £115 a week at the dog while not seeing the progress i would like, there comes a time when you have to cut your loses and make the most of what you have , which is what I am trying to do. You know what I should still speak to him and ask his opinion on the routes available that lay ahead. It might well be time to call time on it, sad to say but they don't all make the grade . I don't know the situation within the eight weeks and what you thought could be done and what he said could be done but I should take the advice he might give on the subject for sure, very sad but do you want a pet dog? I have had dogs that didn't do what I planned they would yet found a niche elsewhere and the guy who never failed never really tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayDT10 Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Well you would be wrong , he had him over two months residential and did not succeed , he found him a very difficult dog to work with though he could see he had the potential to be very good , unfortunately I could not keep throwing £115 a week at the dog while not seeing the progress i would like, there comes a time when you have to cut your loses and make the most of what you have , which is what I am trying to do. I feel your pain , I had my dog perfect on the recall and sitting up on the handover head up. As the days and weeks went on this deteriorated to the point he would run straight passed and reluctantly come round but didn't want to hand over. I then found out my lovely wife had been letting him out and he'd been grabbing my daughters toys and they had been chasing him to get them back. I now have to go all the way back and start again . I'm using food treats. I sit the up and gently place the dummy in his mouth hold his head up whilst stroking under his chin then after a few seconds a remove the dummy and give his treat. I build this up until I can place the dummy in his mouth whilst he sits and walk back and call him in . They pick this up quick. If your dog starts to spit the dummy simply put it back in his mouth. Calm is the way mind you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millomite Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Actually to be fair Millomite is extremely good with the dogs. Anybody's going to be sceptical to begin with (how does a few boards placed 3" off the ground help?) (although I thrashed his *** at our first test ) (kidding, Scott ) Waiting for him to do the same at our first trial eeeeekkkkk!! LOL I wouldn't call myself extremely good. I haven't won a bloody thing yet but will get there eventually. I had to let you do well in that first time, newby luck and all that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I have thought about it yes , I am really loath to try it though , I can see where it may break the cycle of him running when he needs correction but the thought of using one does not sit well with me to be honest . Fenboy is he quite a soft dog? LOL I wouldn't call myself extremely good. I haven't won a bloody thing yet but will get there eventually. I had to let you do well in that first time, newby luck and all that You don't need to win stuff to be good with your dogs. Plenty of brilliant dog people out there who have never entered a trial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Fenboy is he quite a soft dog? You don't need to win stuff to be good with your dogs. Plenty of brilliant dog people out there who have never entered a trial He has a very funny temperament , very stubborn at times but also on the nervous side too . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) I'm a firm believer that no dog is ever deliberately naughty to annoy his/her handler. (although it's very hard to think that at the time lol) Maybe he appears stubborn BECAUSE he is soft? I've come across a fair few spaniels like this and they're not the easiest to deal with at all Edited August 29, 2014 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 He has a very funny temperament , very stubborn at times but also on the nervous side too . The stubbornness might just be him being stuck in adolescence out the other side if you remain calm you never know what you will end up with as I suspect through the nerves is he actually wants to please but is in the hinterland at present. We all thought we knew better when we were teenagers and were a little hot headed but stuck with a real problem what did we do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I'm a firm believer that no dog is ever deliberately naughty to annoy his/her handler. (although it's very hard to think that at the time lol) Maybe he appears stubborn BECAUSE he is soft? I've come across a fair few spaniels like this and they're not the easiest to deal with at all Dogs are neither naughty or stubborn, they just get confused. When confused a soft dog will generally down tools & do nothing for fear of getting it wrong. They can be hard to deal with as sooner or later you're going to have to make their minds up for them & force them to do things. This is when it can all go seriously tits up if you choose the wrong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Dogs are neither naughty or stubborn, they just get confused. When confused a soft dog will generally down tools & do nothing for fear of getting it wrong. They can be hard to deal with as sooner or later you're going to have to make their minds up for them & force them to do things. This is when it can all go seriously tits up if you choose the wrong time. They're not easy but they're the most rewarding when you DO get it right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millomite Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 You were sceptical at first?. You watch Openshaw use them and were sceptical?. Do you know something he doesn't?. How ftchs have you made up?. How many ftw have you got?. How many trials have you finished?.Isn't that like a lad on a skateboard saying Lewis Hamilton could have taken a corner a bit faster? Hold on a second, who said I was sceptical of them even though Ian was using them? I had heard of them being used before Ian released his DVD, and before I tried them I was sceptical whether they would work to cure the problem I had. Having seen someone else and then Ian demo them, and then when I bought his DVD, I put it into practice and had success. In answer to you other questions, 0, 0 and 0. That's why I'm listening to the likes of Ian et al to try and improve. Think you've clearly missed my original point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archi Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Well you would be wrong , he had him over two months residential and did not succeed , he found him a very difficult dog to work with though he could see he had the potential to be very good , unfortunately I could not keep throwing £115 a week at the dog while not seeing the progress i would like, there comes a time when you have to cut your loses and make the most of what you have , which is what I am trying to do. If you wanted a second opinion I would given Stephen Roberts (towerbird gundogs) a call as I have found him very good in sorting my clumber out who had similar problems with retrieving & recall If you want his number let me know I am sure he would take a look and give you some honest advice Archi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 If you wanted a second opinion I would given Stephen Roberts (towerbird gundogs) a call as I have found him very good in sorting my clumber out who had similar problems with retrieving & recall If you want his number let me know I am sure he would take a look and give you some honest advice Archi Thanks , a little far for me though , and I will not be paying for more residential training . Things are improving slowly with him but he is lacking in any consistency , I will think I have cracked it one day only to be back at square one another , hopefully when he has matured some more things will start to drop in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I would also possibly advise a 2nd opinion, all trainers train in a slightly different fashion and some dogs may suit other trainers better, althou it does sound a tricky dog but the problems u seem to have are commonish. Doesn't make ur fisrt trainer bad just a different approach might work. Others will have different opinions but i tend to think 1-1 lessons are a far better way to train a dog as often u the owner needs training as much as the dog and it would save u a heap of cash Possibly worth phoning rory major, bryanscroft gundogs, he is more an hpr man but that should give him a better insight into retriving and recall problems as most hprs will have them For anyone else with a young dog just be very very careful when 1st introducing them the first season, many dogs wil be ruined by too much too soon. Esp on wounded live game Very easy to ruin them too even when ur trying to be careful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.w. Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I would also possibly advise a 2nd opinion, all trainers train in a slightly different fashion and some dogs may suit other trainers better, althou it does sound a tricky dog but the problems u seem to have are commonish. Doesn't make ur fisrt trainer bad just a different approach might work. Others will have different opinions but i tend to think 1-1 lessons are a far better way to train a dog as often u the owner needs training as much as the dog and it would save u a heap of cash Possibly worth phoning rory major, bryanscroft gundogs, he is more an hpr man but that should give him a better insight into retriving and recall problems as most hprs will have them For anyone else with a young dog just be very very careful when 1st introducing them the first season, many dogs wil be ruined by too much too soon. Esp on wounded live game Very easy to ruin them too even when ur trying to be careful That's the best advise ever, everthing you have stated makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee-kinsman Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 Hi Kent. She's been shot over rough shooting, but people have told us not to put her in a beating line or picking up, hence the question Beating, No.Picking up, behind the guns for marked retrieves, yes. Sweeping up, No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scutt Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 Beating for partridge for young dogs in my view is ok as mostly done in open rough grasses hill sides etc you can keep your eye on the dog and you have the option to to put the lead on . The dog has to enter the field at some time and get used to people vehicles, shooting and other dogs etc and for a lot of dog owners its the only way they can get work for the dog.To be offered picking up on a shoot for a young dog YOU ARE TRAINING just won't happen unless you are a regular and a known trainer yes some think beating ruins the dog but I think this comes from, those who want trail the dog and is probably right but most of us just want to be able to work the dog and give it experience.Its a move you have to make at some time only my take on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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