Jump to content

Country club services or BASC

The birdman

By The birdman,
in General Shooting Matters

 Share

Recommended Posts

neutron619

neutron619

Posted
Posted (edited)

Thank you for all the replies, I think I will keep looking.....still not sure although BASC does seem to be the most popular?

 

Traditionally, it always has been, but there are a growing number of us who feel that they've rolled over and had their tummies tickled by politicians too much recently to continue sending them £60-70 a year. More and more of what they do appears to be "managing the decline of British shooting" rather than standing up for our rights and privileges as they exist now. For examples:

- Waiting times on applications - where has the lobbying to get the ridiculous waiting times (i.e. Dorset - reportedly 7 months currently) sorted out gone?

- Medical reports (we don't need licences and it does nothing for our safety or enjoyment of shooting - they want to license us so they should pay if they feel our medical history needs clarification).

- Their pathetic response to the pistols campaign, which was doing well for a while and then died in a ditch (no interest myself, but why are pistol shooters any more dangerous than any of us with shotguns?)

- Their generally useless "representation" of shooters and potential shooters trying to gain / re-gain licenses - I've had two acquaintances struggle with renewals or grants recently and BASC's answer has been "try applying in another XXX years" in all cases. Not good enough.

 

Now think of the other side - what efforts have they made to push for better conditions for shooters? When, for example, will they make the point that

- we should be licensed as "people" not as "person capable of owning a .223" / "person capable of owning an FAC air gun" / "person capable of owning 10-shot pump action shotgun". Any one of us who (as they say) went "postal" would do huge damage if we wanted to or lost our minds to the point we didn't know what we were doing - doesn't matter what gun.

- any problems we have with guns in this country are mostly to do with illegal weapons and gang culture - the last group of people who are likely to involve themselves in firearms licensing. Why should the law-abiding hunter take "responsibility" for that by suffering draconian laws?

 

There will never be a good or "politically acceptable" time to stand up and say "let's relax the gun laws" or "let's trust the [nasty] men with shotguns a little more than we have". When it's as simple as that, it becomes a choice between "shall I / we / this organisation say something or shall we not?"

 

So far, everything I've seen from BASC (and especially since their new CEO arrived) has said "no, we're not going to bother", which is why I've voted with my feet and allowed my membership to lapse this year. Many of the people I know who shoot and who have stuck with BASC for many years are doing the same. I'll be finding another organisation to represent me and my interests and I'll keep looking once per year until I find one that will.

Edited by neutron619
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David BASC

David BASC

Posted
Posted

We have worked with ACPO and licencing teams and many have significantly improved their service, but there are some who are frankly awful and we continue to do all we can to get them to improve.

 

We have fought the compulsory medical report and will continue to do so.

 

Although pistol shooting was not in our immediate remit, that was the role of the NPA, it was only BASC that was prepared to go live on TV that day to defend pistol shooting, it was only BASC that fielded staff to do live interviews on TV the following days, it was BASC that fought for 22's to remain, although I accept the Labour land slide put an end to that. :sad1:

 

Which other organisation constantly steps up to the plate to defend and promote shooting in the media when it comes under attack? Perhaps you did not see the BASC shotgun coach live on BBC TV this morning promoting how safe and well run shooting is in the UK, and how its important for young people to be allowed to take up shooting?

 

On helping shooters with licencing problems, so far this year we have resolved successfully literally hundreds of licencing problems for our members. We have around 12 cases at the moment on appeal waiting to go to court

 

On licencing conditions we were responsible for the new HO guidance including the AOLQ condition on S1, and yes we have always said that its the person who should be licenced

 

To say that BASC's position, especially under the new CEO is that 'we will not bother' is a ludicrous suggestion!

 

Good luck finding another organisation that delivers even half what BASC does...

 

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites
fortune

fortune

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Traditionally, it always has been, but there are a growing number of us who feel that they've rolled over and had their tummies tickled by politicians too much recently to continue sending them £60-70 a year. More and more of what they do appears to be "managing the decline of British shooting" rather than standing up for our rights and privileges as they exist now. For examples:

- Waiting times on applications - where has the lobbying to get the ridiculous waiting times (i.e. Dorset - reportedly 7 months currently) sorted out gone?

- Medical reports (we don't need licences and it does nothing for our safety or enjoyment of shooting - they want to license us so they should pay if they feel our medical history needs clarification).

- Their pathetic response to the pistols campaign, which was doing well for a while and then died in a ditch (no interest myself, but why are pistol shooters any more dangerous than any of us with shotguns?)

- Their generally useless "representation" of shooters and potential shooters trying to gain / re-gain licenses - I've had two acquaintances struggle with renewals or grants recently and BASC's answer has been "try applying in another XXX years" in all cases. Not good enough.

 

Now think of the other side - what efforts have they made to push for better conditions for shooters? When, for example, will they make the point that

- we should be licensed as "people" not as "person capable of owning a .223" / "person capable of owning an FAC air gun" / "person capable of owning 10-shot pump action shotgun". Any one of us who (as they say) went "postal" would do huge damage if we wanted to or lost our minds to the point we didn't know what we were doing - doesn't matter what gun.

- any problems we have with guns in this country are mostly to do with illegal weapons and gang culture - the last group of people who are likely to involve themselves in firearms licensing. Why should the law-abiding hunter take "responsibility" for that by suffering draconian laws?

 

There will never be a good or "politically acceptable" time to stand up and say "let's relax the gun laws" or "let's trust the [nasty] men with shotguns a little more than we have". When it's as simple as that, it becomes a choice between "shall I / we / this organisation say something or shall we not?"

 

So far, everything I've seen from BASC (and especially since their new CEO arrived) has said "no, we're not going to bother", which is why I've voted with my feet and allowed my membership to lapse this year. Many of the people I know who shoot and who have stuck with BASC for many years are doing the same. I'll be finding another organisation to represent me and my interests and I'll keep looking once per year until I find one that will.

Total agreement with what this person has written. I was a full member of Wagbi / basc for many years but when I needed help I got a similar response >> “ don’t rock the boat and upset the police>” . I’m not interested in corporate image of basc but I did need help and guidance but it was > “ A grey area”. Not good enough performance. No good having a fire extinguisher and when you need it it doesn’t work. If it’s insurance you want get it from an insurance specialist and not a sub agent. CCC3 is what it says on the tin and nothing that will be said will change that. I walked with a lot of other people. Still you could always read the quarterly mag. Expensive mag though.

PS you have only got to go back a month or so to read what the wild fowlers thought of basc and that was about greylags on the general list. Great shame, its like an anti organisation masquarading as a shooting organisation like a trogan horse.

Time to take the dog out and then to reload some ammunition. life goes on without basc

Edited by fortune
Link to comment
Share on other sites
neutron619

neutron619

Posted
Posted (edited)

We have worked with ACPO and licencing teams and many have significantly improved their service, but there are some who are frankly awful and we continue to do all we can to get them to improve.

 

We have fought the compulsory medical report and will continue to do so.

 

Although pistol shooting was not in our immediate remit, that was the role of the NPA, it was only BASC that was prepared to go live on TV that day to defend pistol shooting, it was only BASC that fielded staff to do live interviews on TV the following days, it was BASC that fought for 22's to remain, although I accept the Labour land slide put an end to that. :sad1:

 

Which other organisation constantly steps up to the plate to defend and promote shooting in the media when it comes under attack? Perhaps you did not see the BASC shotgun coach live on BBC TV this morning promoting how safe and well run shooting is in the UK, and how its important for young people to be allowed to take up shooting?

 

On helping shooters with licencing problems, so far this year we have resolved successfully literally hundreds of licencing problems for our members. We have around 12 cases at the moment on appeal waiting to go to court

 

On licencing conditions we were responsible for the new HO guidance including the AOLQ condition on S1, and yes we have always said that its the person who should be licenced

 

To say that BASC's position, especially under the new CEO is that 'we will not bother' is a ludicrous suggestion!

 

Good luck finding another organisation that delivers even half what BASC does...

 

David

 

Well David, I appreciate your response, but I can only speak from my own experience and those I know well enough to trust their stories: BASC's performance in those particular cases does not reflect well on the organisation. Of course you are duty bound to defend the organisation, but when I hear of people being told by BASC "apply again in two years" when they have less reason to be refused a certificate than I do (I have both SGC and FAC) I have to wonder whether they're getting what they pay for. You have to understand that I say this from someone who loves shooting, who wants to see it more widely accepted by society and who feels, politically and otherwise, that shooting's myriad benefits ought to be better recognised by politicians and public alike.

 

On the issues I raised:

 

- Surely by now, someone's livelihood has been disrupted because of an inability of certain forces to process a renewal on time. Perhaps they've even had to suffer the expense of stowing their guns with an RFD whilst the certificate is processed. God forbid anyone's actually been charged with illegal possession because of this problem. Where are the stories of BASC pursuing the police for damages in these cases? Ok, so that might be an extreme reaction, sure, but it would draw a line in the sand and make it clear that our representative organisations will stand up for us and that the police need to do better or face the consequences.

 

- I'm afraid I don't watch television, so I didn't see anyone from BASC standing up for pistol shooters, but then obviously, because of that, I've never seen anyone standing up for anything. However, I could ask (again) why more isn't being done, pro-actively, to see pistol shooting return to the list of acceptable sports in this country. Javelins are not terribly safe are they - I mean - human kind were killing animals and each other with spears for years before we invented guns yet they are now accepted as a legitimate sporting tool. The target pistols Olympic shooters use are no more or less dangerous, frankly, and we wouldn't put up with them taking our javelins away. If they did, we'd be trying to get them back. So why not pistols?

 

- As for medical reports, when are we going to see a judicial review or some other mechanism used to put the licensing teams back in their box? We can argue "unlawful" vs "illegal" until the cows come home, but ultimately, guidelines or not, they're making the law up as they go along and getting away with it because they are being allowed to get away with it. They continue to do the same in all aspects of firearms law, particularly with respect to calibres and what's "allowed" when again, the law is clear - it's up to the shooter to choose a .308 over a .243 for deer if that's what they want. You can say it's all "guidelines" but they're exactly that - an interpretation. So why do the police always seem to be the ones that "win"?

 

You say you've solved hundreds of licensing problems for members and I'm sure you have. In one respect, I don't particularly mind paying for that - there but for the grace of God go any of us if an FEO takes a dislike to us - but where is the evidence? If you've done it, boast about it. Stick something on the website that says "bloke asked for .30-06 for deer - licensing said no, BASC said yes - he got it" so we know that's what's happening. Why do we more often see reports like the one regarding my acquaintance, where the advice is "give it a few years" rather than "let's see what we can do"?

 

AOLQ was a good success, granted and I've appreciated it myself, though thus far it's been of no use to me personally. The problem is, you then followed up with "10 year licences" which looked like trying to throw the shooting community a rather meagre bone. Why not follow up with "everything to section two" and actually start a campaign that would motivate your 100,000 members (and many others) to get behind you for once. The problem is, we can get 13,000 signatures for .22 pistols on section one, but that's as far as it goes, because only a small number of the many hundreds of thousands who shoot will be affected. Do something radical however and we might actually persuade enough people to sign a petition or make a difference.

 

Let's say you went with the "vet the person" idea in a serious way. If we're all vetted as people rather than by rifle or shotgun, that would be a huge freedom for all of us and a huge step towards the kind of responsible shooting we ought to have and enjoy. The benefits to signing such a petition are obvious and I have no doubt that a good majority of the members would get behind it. We could keep the land clearance system, if the police still wanted new certificate holders to use "suitable" calibres on a given bit of land, but we'd massively reduce the paperwork burden (and the cost) and stop all of these idiotic arguments about whether a 6mm rifle fired into the floor is any more dangerous than a 7mm rifle fired into the floor (possibly via quarry). Most of us probably wouldn't buy many more rifles as we couldn't afford them anyway, but we'd have the freedom to do so if we wanted to. You'd unite shooters from across the spectrum and - in doing so - achieve the same effect as the 10 year licence, since we'd all only need one rather than two and therefore the cost would be halved.

 

No politician will ever go for it, sure - but if you know that anyway, what's stopping you from trying? Many of us are paying your salaries, but many of us feel that we don't see very much for the majority of the fees we pay that aren't insurance - which we hope never to use anyway. If that's the case, you're either doing the wrong things or you're not communicating what you are doing well enough.

 

I'm sorry that I won't be persuaded to rejoin, but I'll make you a promise. If I see a concerted campaign to achieve a major improvement in firearms law and conditions for a majority of shooters, I will rejoin the organisation and make a further additional donation to the cause in question.

 

You obviously have the political contacts - please stop (in my view) equivocating and use them.

 

Many thanks,

 

Adam.

Edited by neutron619
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David BASC

David BASC

Posted
Posted

Unless a certificate holders circumstances have changed, or unless there is something on the new applicants application that causes the police some concern there is no reason for the police to ask for the application / renewal etc to be delayed, and BASC would never support such a request by the police unless the evidence supplied by the applicant / police supported the delay.

 

If a persons livelihood has been damaged by the police I am afraid its up to the applicant to claim damages

 

There have been several calls for the return of pistol shooting and indeed there is such a campaign running at the moment and its fully supported by BASC, bus as yo correctly point out, the vast majority of shooters in the UK cant be bothered to spend a few moments filling in the petition

 

The only forms that have to be returned by law are those required, details on our web site. This is the position that we have fought several forces over.

 

The 10 year licence is but one proposal to try and ensure the cost of licencing to the like of you and me are kept as low as possible, I cant se how this can be seen as a sop to the police or the shooting community

 

Our response to the Home Office consultation was indeed to push for Section 2 style licencing for all, as it makes perfect sense! That is still our position and we will keep campaigning for it

 

I agree and accept they we will always be judged by what we do and what we deliver for our members and the shooting community, as I trust will all the shooting organisations, so I guess it goes back to my last point, who is delivering more for shooting than BASC?

 

Is BASC perfect, well probably not, but working together and growing larger and stronger we will get better and better - I can promise you that.

 

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DazzJo

DazzJo

Posted
Posted

IMO sign up to BASC pay the fee for the year and know that you can go pick up your gun, go bang bang and know that you are with the best organisation that you can sign up to. Not many other organisation also offer 'members offers' too. Trust me you will be in safe hands (if any goes wrong) :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Scully

Scully

Posted
Posted

I may re-join if or when BASC decides to rock the boat a bit, until then I wont be funding someones salary to the tune I currently am, and to imagine I helped fund J. Swifts pension fund is almost more than I can bear. But I'm also saddened to find myself so disillusioned with BASC after being a member for so long. In the meantime I'm struggling to leave; plenty of options on the website to join, but none mate or me can find whereby our membership is cancelled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
merseapaul

merseapaul

Posted
Posted

I am about to go with cc3. I was in basc for many many years as they are the biggest organization of its type and so the general trend was to join them. I looked on it from a personal and maybe selfish point of view and asked what did they do for me. Well insurance was the only thing- that I can get a lot cheaper now. Did I need them to obtain my fac and shotgun license? No because I satisfied the criteria set out and generally a good law abiding person. Did they do anything to help me get places to shoot? No I had to get out and relentlessly ask and find it myself. I used to get a magazine that was okay but after seeing all the dinner party's and events that I have no interest in other than the fact my hard earned cash was paying for was a bitter pill to swallow and basically that why I have left them.

I am no politician just average Joe who likes to shoot and sure people in the know will have something to say about my comments but that's just my honest view how I see it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
neutron619

neutron619

Posted
Posted (edited)

But I'm also saddened to find myself so disillusioned with BASC after being a member for so long.

 

Seconded. I didn't say all the stuff I said above because I wanted to raise a flag or have a go at David or any of the other BASC staff - I want to be able to find a reason to remain a member, but at the moment, I'm not seeing the kind of robust campaigning and political intervention that I'm paying for. Apart from anything else, with a new baby and only one wage packet at the moment, £70 is a reasonable amount of money, so much as I might like to damn the consequences and pay it anyway, I can't just sent the membership fee off without thinking about what I'm getting for it - the answer for me, at the moment, is not much.

 

I am about to go with cc3. I was in basc for many many years as they are the biggest organization of its type and so the general trend was to join them. I looked on it from a personal and maybe selfish point of view and asked what did they do for me. Well insurance was the only thing- that I can get a lot cheaper now. Did I need them to obtain my fac and shotgun license? No because I satisfied the criteria set out and generally a good law abiding person. Did they do anything to help me get places to shoot? No I had to get out and relentlessly ask and find it myself. I used to get a magazine that was okay but after seeing all the dinner party's and events that I have no interest in other than the fact my hard earned cash was paying for was a bitter pill to swallow and basically that why I have left them.

 

This irritates me too, I'm afraid. Granted, there was an initiative to match farmers and pigeon shooters up a year or two ago, but I never heard that anything came of it. Other than that, and the odd loan to wildfowlers here and there, it's hard to see what they've done that actually moves any of us towards being able to do some shooting. I've never had a permission in all of my shooting career, though it's not for want of trying. Thanks to another member here, I've recently discovered about a local association, membership of which allows access to some land for pigeons and I'm trying to get in touch. The association in question used to be affiliated to BASC, so could they have not mentioned something about them on their website?

 

As for the magazine - well - I'll never be able to afford a day of driven shooting and with the exception of deerstalking which I try to do 3-4 times per year or as often as I can, all of the rest of the stuff they talk about requires permissions. If you don't have any, it's a bit galling to be presented with a magazine full of people enjoying themselves at seemingly limitless expense. Great for the 8 guns on shoot X, Y or Z that they've featured this month - what about the other 99,992 members who weren't in attendance? All very well saying Mr Goggins put on some excellent high birds, but unless you were there, it's all a bit much of a muchness really.

 

Don't get me wrong - I know I sound bitter and disappointed and I'm really not. I love shooting and at the end of the day, I'm glad someone is doing it. My guess though, is that a lot more of their members need help finding opportunities than need to read about other people spending the kinds of money they'll never have on doing the things they wish they were doing.

Edited by neutron619
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David BASC

David BASC

Posted
Posted

Thanks for the comments.

 

The dinners that you see in the mag from time to time are not funded by BASC as some of you assume, they are fundraising dinners where people pay to go, take part in raffles and auctions etc.. One such dinner earlier this year in our Northern region for example raised over £6000 and this has been used to give loads of young members shooting opportunities on clays and just yesterday, day pigeons.

 

I appreciate that £69 in one go can be tough to find, that's why over 3 years ago we introduced the option to pay though Direct Debit in 4 or 10 instalments to spread the cost.

 

We have over 132 trade members who give discounts to BASC members that will help cut the costs of shooting, details on the Trade Directory on the BASC web site

 

We can offer members discounts on high street shopping to save more money - details on the Member Offers section of the web site

 

We constantly ask our clubs and syndicates and others to promote their vacancies on our web site in the BASC Sporting Agency section

 

We are working with farming and forestry organisations with the objective of opening up more shooting opportunities for members ,and the first set of these opportunities for fox and pigeon shooting have started in North and South Wales, more to follow in the North of England and the East of England within the next few months all being well. Also we have just introduced a new stalking scheme in Dorset, and just released our new Wildfowling permit scheme. Helping members to secure shooting is a top priority for BASC.

 

We post on the web site information of what we are doing for members, shooters and shooting, take a look and then take a look at the cheap options and see what the extra £20-40 you pay to BASC is delivering over and above the cheaper options.

 

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites
stokie

stokie

Posted
Posted

BASC to me is a no brainer . Every farmer has heard of them so it helps to open doors and show some responsibility . Knowing if things go wrong you at least have some backup even if it's only advice. I managed to totally change my life due to some help from Mike Eveleigh bascs head of firearms . He also said he personally would fight my case if needed. It didn't come to that but knowing I had help at hand was a good thing . So there is a positive from me . Others need to do the same instead of letting this thread turn into a total bashing post your good experiences

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bazooka Joe

Bazooka Joe

Posted
Posted
Others need to do the same instead of letting this thread turn into a total bashing

 

 

 

Why is it when members voice their opinion about BASC, the same comment comes out that it's a BASC bashing thread.... :lol:

 

Are they not entitled to.?

 

In light of some recent events, (Lead Debate, Greylag & Mallard on the GL) ...I'm hardly surprised.... :rolleyes:

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...