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BASCing or not in reflected glory ?


Kes
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Apologies from the start if I offend Zapp, who rightly closed the previous discussion as it veered off at a tangent.

I didnt get chance to comment sadly so, I am hoping this new specific thread will help everyone. Please delete this thread Zapp if it offends !

 

 

I like Scully, am leaving BASC, perhaps equally disappointed that the 'voice of shooting' is not being heard in the ways I, for one had hoped.

When BASC started, way back, it offered immense promise. Many more people shot then. Since then controls have escalated, not always for good reason or with suitable justification, not entirely BASC's fault but what should be the success rate of the 'voice of shooting' over maybe 40 years?

Its sounds great to 'drive change' and 'push for', 'engage with at the highest level' etc, but outcomes are the measure for me, responsiveness and personal service.

Not all shooters are members of orgs or the biggest (BASC), by a long way.

Insurance (IMHO) has driven the rise in membership, People I speak to have the same concerns I do. BASC will prosper only by increasing memberhip. Maybe a careful look at what is causing the disillusion (as Wimberely suggests) would help. Most organisation do so called 'exit interviews' for staff why not the more important - members.

If BASC turns over members but does not seek to change to accomodate those reasonable people who leave unhappy, it has lost its best chance of increasing membership - i.e. those who once thought it was the right org to join. Those who dont and never have joined are unlikely to be suddenly convinced to join, so where is membership growth and strengthening the voice of shooting to come from ?

I have mentioned amalgamation - it holds great promise for shooters but perhaps not the staff. BASC is also trying to become the organisation that shooters must join or face isolation. I dont buy that. I want 'altruism' and 'rocking the boat' and 'overt protection of wildlife using surveys statistics and advice on quarry species and numbers. Negotiating with NE is pointless - do it better as ourselves.

I'm going to join Scully at NGO and see if they can improve my deflated estimation of what a representative organisation could and should be doing for shooters, individually and collectively.

This is more a plea for change, not BASC bashing.

 

Lead shot/additional medicals/licensing review/general licence issues etc. Not my ideal outcomes (amongst the others) for an input of close to £10M annually and we all have choices.

 

 

 

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You are located close to BASC head Office.

 

Could you not apply to become a part of BASC and work with them for change, rather than walk away and leave it to others.

 

What would amalgamation bring? who would you join with?: CPSA, GWCT, NGO, amongst many?

 

I belong to numerous Organisations and being a pensioner would benefit from just one subscription, I suspect many of us belong to more than one Organisation, therefore joint income would reduce, you would also get those that do not want amalgamation or are not happy with the "new partner" and walk away, again reducing income.

 

You sound like someone that cares, put that care to good use within the BASC Organisation

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You are located close to BASC head Office.

 

Could you not apply to become a part of BASC and work with them for change, rather than walk away and leave it to others.

 

What would amalgamation bring? who would you join with?: CPSA, GWCT, NGO, amongst many?

 

I belong to numerous Organisations and being a pensioner would benefit from just one subscription, I suspect many of us belong to more than one Organisation, therefore joint income would reduce, you would also get those that do not want amalgamation or are not happy with the "new partner" and walk away, again reducing income.

 

You sound like someone that cares, put that care to good use within the BASC Organisation

Bakerboy - thank you for your comments. I do care about shooting and what our image has become against all odds and reasonable expectation. I would like to change BASC but fear it would reject my help. You have heard the phrase 'listening organisation', I dont think BASC is listening, greylags and the General Licence for example. Who supports native geese, any going on the GL, when there are other ways tried and tested? Far less should a shooting organisation whose membership derived from wildfowling. I'm afraid I can get quite impassioned and in shooting, as you probably know, anyone who challenges someone else's opinion, makes it a personal thing. To change BASC you need to be CEO and fully aware of many relevant things. I am fairly sure I'd just irritate everyone without some degree of authority to make it stick. I see that organisation run by 2 people with supporters on both sides - I think the expression used to be ' a closed shop' not the easiest to change. (I stress this is just my opinion and perhaps intensified by my disappointment. Thanks again

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I can understand the idea of one organisation but choice will hopefully mean competition that means some will have to try harder.

BASC judges all on membership numbers they are ok if membership is up all is great if membership drops they will listen to members

 

Good luck to NGO they made great strides when started they engaged locally a thing BASC did years before.not sure if that is happening nationally.

 

We need strong representation to maintain and build on what we have and it is correct in my view concerns are raised on forums like this

To long as long as folk leave and be quite about it and do not rock the boat that's ok well it is not. Many have concerns and should voice them

Just a question for all who is the BASC council member to contact with your concerns most will not have a clue Shooting and Conservation does not show them apart from once a year. Without contact details.

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In this weeks Shooting Times (27/8) pages 6 and 7 the actual number of shotgun and firearms license holders is in print for each year from 2004 to 2014. There is a steady growth. Shooting is not in decline as evidenced by these figures, to the contrary it is growing. BASC is the biggest shooting organisation by far so it has to take some credit in a period of political and social unrest with shooting and field sports in general. I don't always agree with BASC but for sure I'll always be a member.

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Hi Kes

 

BASC need people like you, people with an opinion based on compassion, concern and experience.

 

The new CEO Richard Ali has been in office for approximately 18 months and thing are changing at BASC changing for the better.

I am confident that if you contacted Richard or possibly Gary Easton (cannot remember his title) they will speak with you and listen to your concerns..

 

In my experience thing are changed more easily from the inside, especially when all concerned are talking to each other and more importantly listening to each other.

 

No doubt our good friend David from BASC will soon appear and correct where I am wrong and give us a more informed answer than I could ever give.

 

I should inform you that I am BASC Coach and work with BASC on numerous events, but I am not employed by BASC, just in case anyone should think I have an ulterior motive.

 

But please do not walk away, walk topwards BASC and make the difference

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In this weeks Shooting Times (27/8) pages 6 and 7 the actual number of shotgun and firearms license holders is in print for each year from 2004 to 2014. There is a steady growth. Shooting is not in decline as evidenced by these figures, to the contrary it is growing. BASC is the biggest shooting organisation by far so it has to take some credit in a period of political and social unrest with shooting and field sports in general. I don't always agree with BASC but for sure I'll always be a member.

Why are numbers growing - is that down to BASC/

If not why not?

I am not so sure about credit for BASC - shooting is closely tied to the economic climate and rather less volatile than house prices, more money more shooting. If that theory holds even a little bit true then why wasnt there a surge in membership well before 2004?

Whilst I respect your opinion, my gut feeling is that changes in membership more reflect an awareness of the need for insurance and why wouldnt BASC and others push that idea ?

The question is why do people leave BASC - if that was addressed, it might become a more attractive place to be and better fulfill the claim, as yet a bit groundless in my view, that it is the "Voice of Shooting"

For me its 'spin' and 'substance' - only the latter is what all shooters need and deserve and actually pay for.

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Hi Kes

 

BASC need people like you, people with an opinion based on compassion, concern and experience.

 

The new CEO Richard Ali has been in office for approximately 18 months and thing are changing at BASC changing for the better.

I am confident that if you contacted Richard or possibly Gary Easton (cannot remember his title) they will speak with you and listen to your concerns..

 

In my experience thing are changed more easily from the inside, especially when all concerned are talking to each other and more importantly listening to each other.

 

No doubt our good friend David from BASC will soon appear and correct where I am wrong and give us a more informed answer than I could ever give.

 

I should inform you that I am BASC Coach and work with BASC on numerous events, but I am not employed by BASC, just in case anyone should think I have an ulterior motive.

 

But please do not walk away, walk topwards BASC and make the difference

 

Bakerboy, if you are a typical loyal member, maybe BASC will succeed.

However there are people like Wymberley and Scully, equally as committed to shooting sports and with no axe to grind who are walking away. BASC had the chance to impress and was advised it has, was and is making mistakes, yet we dont have the 'stand and fight' (on fact and principle) which essential members need.

Most of us arent stupid, most of us want to stay but who at BASC cares?

How many replies to posts have accused negative comments as being 'BASC bashing', not genuinely concerned comments. To simply paraphrase, BASC needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Some of the most thoughtful, potentially helpful and committed members leave and do not return.

I think you are an exception but dont tell me it hasnt crossed your mind? I want an organisation where it doesnt cross mine.

Thanks again.

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Personally,whether it be BASC,CA,NGO,SACS or whoever I would love to see some well publicized positive & robust action to make sure Police areas do not exceed their authority.I do not agree with the "softly,softly do not rock the boat" approach,the rule of law should be obeyed by both shooters & the police.As an aside I am a BASC member and intend to remain so:each to their own

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Personally,whether it be BASC,CA,NGO,SACS or whoever I would love to see some well publicized positive & robust action to make sure Police areas do not exceed their authority.I do not agree with the "softly,softly do not rock the boat" approach,the rule of law should be obeyed by both shooters & the police.As an aside I am a BASC member and intend to remain so:each to their own

Fair enough and if you get BASC to take the action you want in the way you want, I'll rejoin - this is just my point, and why I am trying elsewhere.

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If any member wants to contact BASC Council please use the form here: http://basc.org.uk/about-basc/basc-constitution-and-objects/contact-us-council-enquiries/

 

BASC does contact lapsed members to ask the reasons for lapsing, this is typically an random sample of several thousand, this research is repeated every few years to see if there are any changes.

 

Recently we have also been calling up a random sample of members about to lapse

 

We also conduct membership satisfaction surveys every few years, again this is a randome sample as above

 

I am pleased to say that BASC is growing, more members are staying and more members are joining, this is a continuing trend and as of close of play today our membership was about 3000 higher than at the end of August 2013, and I am confident it will grow further by the end of this year.

 

This does not mean for one moment that I or anyone at BASC is complacent or resting on laurels, far from it!

 

I have always tried on here to listen to concerns, and answer them, I have constantly and consistently asked members to get in touch with me at the office if they are not happy about something, and I will always do my best to help and get it sorted.

 

But BASC is a massive organisation, and we cant please all the people all the time, we will of course try to, but there will typically be some issues where opinion is divided.

 

BASC is far from being a closed shop as has been suggested, remember its the members that elect from their number those they wish to represent them on Council, and its Council that makes the policy decisions not the management.

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"Fair enough and if you get BASC to take the action you want in the way you want, I'll rejoin - this is just my point, and why I am trying elsewhere."

 

I can see what you mean,but my point was no organization that I know of has appeared to tackle apparent unlawful decisions "head on" so who or what can you recommend?

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BASC is far from being a closed shop as has been suggested, remember its the members that elect from their number those they wish to represent them on Council, and its Council that makes the policy decisions not the management.

 

Good words David, How many new Council members have you had in the last 5 years - assuming say 5 a year thats 25 new positions -how many are reelects like this years Chairman.

Did Council decide on the form of structure to deliver its policy?

Oh and how many voted - a sure test of engagement for a shooting organisation representing shooters at a difficult time ?

I'm sorry I shouldnt ask - I'm leaving.

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I joined BASC years ago like many others, and was once very proud to belong to such an organisation, believing I was part of an organisation with real clout and influence.

I have joined and left quite a few other organisations since then, but BASC has always been a constant, and I can sincerely state that since receiving the letter this morning confirming my membership cancellation I have felt that I have betrayed an old friend. I am still niggled by the thought I may regret it, but have burned some bridges now, so that's that.

Contrary to what some may believe, and justly so considering the time I've spent 'bashing' BASC, I am not wishing for the demise of BASC, I think UK shooting would suffer terribly if this were to happen. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than for BASC to grow and prosper to the extent it had the gumption to stand up and say to those in positions of authority over us....'shove it up your ****, enough is enough and we're not complying any further. We are among the nations most law abiding subjects but are regarded by police, politicians and civilians alike as gun toting psychopaths. No more, we've had enough.' Just saying it warms my cockles! :) I am an activist, outside of my family I live for shooting, it is my passion, and I will actively oppose and generally be a pain in the **** of any organisation or authority I deem to perceive as offering a threat to that. The same applies to those organisations which take our money with offers and claims that they can 'protect' or 'ensure' the future of shooting sports or as in BASC"s case, are 'the voice of shooting' but are then found to be wanting.

I can't deny that BASC have done some great things, and have without doubt been a great influence on the way UK shooting is perceived, but over the past few years have lost their way somewhat in my opinion. Possibly the organisation has become too cosy with people of influence and now feels it has to toe the line for fear that influence is lost; I have no idea, it is only supposition on my part, but what started the rot for me was the lead shot issue and in particular a meeting I attended some years ago chaired by J. Swift. In a question and answer debate I found him to be evasive, at some times derisive and at other times aloof and indifferent. It certainly surprised me and I came away feeling let down, disillusioned and a little embarrassed by his abrupt dismissal of some questions asked by one or two members.

Really, for me, since then it has been an accumulation of disappointments which I could itemise but most have been mentioned by me and at some length at one time or another on here so I doubt anyone wants to hear them again. Basically I think it is the realisation that there is very very little BASC, (or our other organisations, can do) and in the case of BASC, will do, for the reasons given. I think the last conversation I had with a BASC representative over the phone brought this realisation into startlingly sharp focus for me and was the icing on the cake. It was a very short process from there to realise I could be just as disappointed but for less money.

But anyhow, I'm not going to try and persuade others to defect, nor try to influence which they join, and would never do so.

Hopefully BASC, or another organisation, will one day be the organisation I wish it would be, or maybe I'm just too much of an activist to ever be satisfied. Anyhow, that's no ones problem but mine.

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There have not been 25 new council members over the last 5 years, its more like one or two now ones each year. How Council operate and indeed BASC operate is enshrined within the constitution.

 

I agree only a small percentage of members bother to engage in the election process, but that's democracy in action!

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There have not been 25 new council members over the last 5 years, its more like one or two now ones each year. How Council operate and indeed BASC operate is enshrined within the constitution.

 

I agree only a small percentage of members bother to engage in the election process, but that's democracy in action!

Or perhaps reflection of their perception of the chance of change ?- something arguably which needs itself, to change, to increase dynamism and possibly risk-taking.

You dont say how many completely new (to Council) members have been elected versus the available seats and theres still a question open on the Merseyside Firearm thread, where a colleague conveyed a different impression re medicals to your own.

I dont wish to get you to run around after my questions David and you aren't responsible for what you colleagues say but there are some significant inconsistencies and some care perhaps needs to be taken to ensure that obvious points of potential member criticism are obviously and openly and understandably dealt with.

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I'm a strong supporter of BASC but accept that the organisation isn't perfect; I've yet to learn of any shooters representative that is perfect.

 

Members vote with their wallets. If the organisation doesn't dance to your tune or play to your script it's time to go, and Kes's time has come.

I've tired of reading his diatribe over many months if not years. I look forward to his words of wisdom being directed towards his new choice of representative body on this forum, lets see how they perform if indeed they even bother to respond.

 

I do my best to support BASC, I recruit new members almost every working day, to satisfy the cynics I don't enter the incentive schemes, I'm satisfied to know that I've done my bit. I do make sure that my voice is heard on issues that cause me concern but I do so without seeking to snipe or score points against BASC or its officers on an open public forum.

 

webber

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I learned a long time ago that tilting at windmills is a waste of a life.

If you don't agree with any element of an organised group, don't join.

If one you are already a member of fails to meet your expectations, criteria, etc., then leave.

 

Its no big deal, life goes on.

 

I believe there are something like 140,000 members of BASC, they are either all very satisfied, or very complacent, but they don't appear to be going anywhere.

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