JJsDad Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) A recent post concerning the need to take care (let the buyer beware) when viewing ads for used guns, promised a lot, but faded into obscurity because the author was unable or unwilling to jusitify his comments. While conversions such as `Sporterised` trap guns are, in my view, perfectly legitimate conversions, providing they are advertised as such and there is no intent to deceive. There are however, as the original post suggests, some guns out there that will catch out the unwary. Some are so subtle that they will catch out even the fairly canny buyer; as happened to a shooting colleague. My friend, who must remain nameless for obvious reasons, has bought and sold guns for around 40+ years and is conventional in that he shoots with an English side x side, and is knowledgable when it comes to likely faults. He has had an ambition for some time to buy a Churchill 25in box-lock. As is the way when you are after a specific make & model, he spent several months answering adverts, only to find out that likely purchases were wildly overpriced, pretty old and worn or had some undesirable feature that made him walk away. However, his persistence paid off and he finally bought a well cared for example that he proudly revealed, complete with a case. The price was around what a very good AYA No 2 fetches through a dealer; so he was well pleased. He asked my opinion and after a cursory examination, I had to admit there was little if anything that I could see wrong with the gun. The bores are spotless, with no suggestion of looseness, the engraving is not worn away and the stock is free from splits or damage. However, one little detail caused me to take note of the serial number. While the top rib bears the correct London address for Churchill, the proof marks are for the Birmingham Proof House. Why Why would a well respected maker with a presitigous London address go to the bother of sending the gun to Birmingham ? Half an hour with Nigel Browns book - English Gunmakers and a bit of research on the web revealed that at the time of proof, Churchills as a gunmaker had ceased to exist. However, the name and records had been bought up by the late (Sam Cummings). Mr Cummings at the time (amongst others) owned a Birmingham maker - Samual Wright. At the time in question, Wright`s were making, amongst others, guns with 25in barrels and a Churchill style raise rib and having them engraved with the Churchill name. So what has my friend got ?? I think providing he is happy with his purchase and shoots well with it I will keep quiet on the matter. However, it just goes to show that sometimes even a gun by a well respected maker can be not all that it seems. Edited August 31, 2014 by JJsDad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 And I suppose the next question has to be - "who actually made Churchill's boxlocks when Churchill's was a going concern?" I don't think it was Churchill's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 This whole topic is a mishmash of deliberate trade misinformation and misdescription....a very high percentage of British guns and parts were (and probably still are) made by out-workers and contractors (most of whom were also gunmakers in their own right) in the trade.......including the top London names.....and yes I heard sometime in the distant past that Churchill boxlock guns were not actually made by Churchill.....I think they were made in Brum but forget who it was claimed actually made them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longspoon Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 A number of years ago I acquired an old sxs hammer gun with the rib and action engraved with the name Scotcher, Bury St Edmunds. Long story short, when checked by a local museum it was determined that the gun had actually been made by Thomas Norfolk, a previous incumbent of the Traverse shop, and had apparently been finished off by Scotcher, having his name added to the gun. Had I acquired a genuine Scotcher ?or something else.....I saw it as a natural transition and was happy anyway....can of worms methinks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 ...a very high percentage of British guns and parts were (and probably still are) made by out-workers and contractors (most of whom were also gunmakers in their own right) in the trade.......including the top London names..... Many of the 'big names' had almost everything apart from their 'flagship' top models made out, usually in Birmingham. I believe the exception (of sorts) was Boss & Co. If the gun bears the Boss name, it was a London gun - though out workers were still used for parts. Lesser guns retailed by Boss were signed 'Robertson', not Boss, Mr. Robertson being the manager of the Company. Robertson guns are not 'best sidelocks', but are always very well made best quality work and materials. I don't know who made them, but I suspect it may have been more than one source, and probably Birmingham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Webley used to run around find clients be it a gun maker gun shop country store what ever with their 700s with various option from in the white to full finished with the retailers name and spec of engraving etc. So often that rare little heard of local gun turns out to be the ever popular Webley 700. Is this an issue not to me if you like the gun and shoot it well. Edited August 31, 2014 by welshwarrior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Further to my last post the maker of most of the Churchill XXV boxlocks was the firm of A.A. Brown and Sons of Birmingham, they are still in business...and make superb guns....their supreme deluxe SLE is a work of art, equal or better than the very best London guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Further to my last post the maker of most of the Churchill XXV boxlocks was the firm of A.A. Brown and Sons of Birmingham, they are still in business...and make superb guns....their supreme deluxe SLE is a work of art, equal or better than the very best London guns. Matthew Brown, son of the present proprietor is a gifted photographer specialising in gun photography, his site is here http://www.losgi.com/ - sorry to be 'off topic'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Webley used to run around find clients be it a gun maker gun shop country store what ever with their 700s with various option from in the white to full finished with the retailers name and spec of engraving etc. So often that rare little heard of local gun turns out to be the ever popular Webley 700. Is this an issue not to me if you like the gun and shoot it well. Yep, I inspected a pair of Webley 700 bearing, believe it or not! the Holland and Holland name on them 20+ years ago in a Birmingham Gunmakers shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Matthew Brown, son of the present proprietor is a gifted photographer specialising in gun photography, his site is here http://www.losgi.com/ - sorry to be 'off topic'. Yep I knew the late Albert the late Sidney and his son Robin who was apprenticed in the firm, Matthew I assume is Robins son? 40+ years ago I used to call in their workshop in Westley Richards Factory in Grange Road, Bournbrook, then when they moved I used to pop in to their premises in Alvechurch for a chat and to ogle at their guns!,.........nice people!........ the business is still there..............but I haven't been in for donkeys years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Open up your Samsung, Sony or Philips TV and you will find components made by Hitachi, LG and NEC, Look under the hood of your BMW, Honda or Peugeot and find parts made by Borg-warner, Bosch, TRW and even Miroku! and a load of other people you have never heard of...... The Guntrade is the same its all manufacturing... there are some cheeky ones like B25 trap guns being "reimagined" into game guns (you can;t tell with checking the serial that it started life a as plain actioned trap gun..... The main thing is your happy with it, and the price you paid but I agree you need your wits about you when buying either new or secondhand. As one gun maker told me 'you wont believe how much welding goes into a "best gun" '! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Look under the hood of your BMW, Honda or Peugeot and find parts made by Borg-warner, Bosch, TRW and even Miroku! And the bit that fail quality control go into those nasty Browning Miroku guns!!! ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 Thought of this thread when I was listening to the Ken Bruce show this morning discussing items they had bought or seen as advertised. Someone had gone to inspect a 'damaged repairable' car, advertised as 'mint condition pre accident' ! Made me chuckle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 Yep, I inspected a pair of Webley 700 bearing, believe it or not! the Holland and Holland name on them 20+ years ago in a Birmingham Gunmakers shop. Well known that W&S made Hollands boxlocks.......as well as many others. Tis why buying a Webley from that era no bad thing...it is effectively a holland & holland boxlock without the name on it!!.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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