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Lab vs Springer or Cocker Spaniel (Pup v Trained?)


southwest_colonel
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I apologise that this topic has almost certainly come up before in one form or another. I can't find anything from the last few months though, and knowing how people love to talk about their dogs, I rather hoped a few people may like to chime in with some thoughts and advice.

 

The time has come to purchase my first gun-dog. I grew up around dogs owned by my grandparents, though we never had any at home (much to my annoyance!) I would like a companion, but also a useful worker. Following a series of unsuitable living arrangements, things are finally in place to allow me to get on the dog owning ladder. I shoot a fair bit, predominantly small driven days and walked up. However, I spend most of my season in the field as a sporting agent - with occasional trips to the grouse moors in that capacity (which occasionally lends itself to shooting a drive a two - if only more often!) So a bit of a mixed bag of requirements...?

 

I think I have boiled it down to the three classic choices: labrador retriever, cocker spaniel or English springer spaniel.

 

My heart wants a cocker - I have a considerable number of friends who have cockers, and I can't help but find them all totally adorable. My concern is that they sound like a little more of a handful than the others - so perhaps not the best first dog? Also that, with relatively little to do on days that I'm agent-ing, whether they would tire of having little retrieving/hunting to do?

 

Would really appreciate people's thoughts on the subject of breed. I am being led down the cocker path by my friends who adore their dogs - all excellent workers, even if a little maverick at times. Meanwhile, the days I run are awash with labs. Those guns seem very happy with their choices also - and whilst we talk about the dogs, I don't feel in a position to 'pick their brains' (so to speak). Meanwhile I have had surprisingly little experience or contact with springers - which seems a little odd to me given how popular they are.

 

I am also intrigued as to people's thoughts on puppy v part-trained v fully trained. Personally I am tending to lean towards part-trained, so that I can have some input into the final product, but without the pressure (as a relative newcomer) of laying the all important foundations. Plus, I will have a fully useful dog a little earlier...

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I have a cocker and a lab.

If your heart says cocker , get a cocker , in general they may take a little more training but not in every case the cocker I have was a breeze to train the Lab I am currently training has been a nightmare, so much depends on the individualy dog .

 

I would condider buying a puppy and booking lessons for both you and the dog witrh a decent trainer, as a newbie to training you are likely to have as many faults as what ever dog you choose .

 

Good luck

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If you lack the inclination / patience / ability to put 2 years into training a dog, buy one trained from somebody else as it'll be cheaper & less stressful in the long run. It probably doesn't need to be too flash as I suspect it'll only ever be picking dead stuff up round the pegs / butts. As long as it's steady, doesn't ****** off & probably most importantly it doesn't sing, you won't break the bank. A Labrador dog is what you are most likely to find at decent money to fit the bill. I'm into cockers but finding one that's right as a peg dog isn't easy, in general they're too frenetic for the job.

 

PS if you do want to start with a pup, I know of a nicely bred 5 month old Labrador dog that I could put you on to. It's not mine!

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I see Cockers as less of a novice ride and a bit too small for heather and hares if you shoot like that, as a peg dog I should be seriously impressed if you made a good job of a cocker first go. Walked up shooting hedge lines etc. the perfect dog if a little hot in general (on balance I prefer a big ESS though those are getting rare as cockers seem to be growing and ESS shrinking), I looked for one a bit back and gave up they were all small and mainly white.

For a peg dog the Lab is pretty much unbeatable (genetic engineered that way) but still needs training for purpose, they say labs are born half trained unfortunately most of them die that way :rolleyes: Don't discount a lab and its ability to hunt and flush birds to the gun walked up or even hit cover hard either. Undoubtedly a spanner is better at it but then a Lab is a better retriever by nature. Fact is if you trained a spaniel too hard and early on heelwork it might make a poorer hunter for it and this is what most do to a lab for its work as a go" back" robot

If you have the cash decide what you want, find the right kennels and trainer for you and sit down and talk turkey. The last thing a shooting agent wants is a badly trained or ill mannered dog running wild and spoiling a drive. Male lab, that a trail competitor decided was never going to be fast and polished enough for his needs after starting well into training might be the most economical choice? My mate paid about 1.5k for one and to be fair it did only need finishing (beware part trained in general it can be a find the part that was "actually trained" challenge)

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I would say u are in a slightly different position to most as ur dog may reflect n urself and ur job/professionalism (rightly or wrongly).

Wot do ur boss other agents run? I would imagine most other agents will have labs?

A lot of folk slate labs for being boring etc but i'd say in ur circumstances that's exactly wot u want as a first dog. Esp as most of the time u will be concentrating on organisiing or ur clients or shooting, many dogs will take advantage of u not paying them 100% concentration esp on an exciting atmosphere like a shoot day.

Wot are ur most important things ur looking for from ur dog?

I'd guess very good at walking to heel of lead in a shoot environ, steady and quiet, any retreiving, stop whistle or handling would be a bit of a bonus, but fairly easily achieved

 

Any of the breeds could do wot u ask but the lab would in most cases do it easier esp the peg work/steadiness.

Prob the FT failure route to go is probably quite good, some can be very cheap, i was offered 1 for 600 quid, i would of called it fully trained, just not going to make the grade so he let it go for wot he paid for it.

The only problem in my eyes with some heavily bred modern FT lines, is the look and coat, i like the old fashioned looking dogs heavy set with a proper thicjk coat, my old lab esp would enter very thick cover no bother, esp if some scent in there

 

I'm not a big fan of cockers but thats a personal thing, seen far to many bad 1's over the years all giving noise etc and all these dogs were bred from, i have since seen some brilliant cockers but still feel they are too wee for many jobs. Now as so fashionable never a good thing for good breeding

 

If u go with a spaniel (or even a lab) i would probably not go for something with too much red FTCH's in its recent history, a good old fashioned proper working line of dogs would be ideal for u.

 

My advice would be get a lab and also join a group training class even if it is part/full trained already, training is a continous thing and will be ongoing. If in the future u get more confident and fancy a change go for it, but a lab is generally a very easy first step into shooting dogs are usualy fairly easy trained and very forgiving when u make a mistake

 

Also even if u find a fully trained 1 at the right money don't be in a hurry to take it shooting too early, u will still need to bond with it and figure each other out. Heard many stories of people buying a fully trained dog then taking it out shooting the next day, it does happen probably more than u'd think

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I would say u are in a slightly different position to most as ur dog may reflect n urself and ur job/professionalism (rightly or wrongly).

Wot do ur boss other agents run? I would imagine most other agents will have labs?

A lot of folk slate labs for being boring etc but i'd say in ur circumstances that's exactly wot u want as a first dog. Esp as most of the time u will be concentrating on organisiing or ur clients or shooting, many dogs will take advantage of u not paying them 100% concentration esp on an exciting atmosphere like a shoot day.

Wot are ur most important things ur looking for from ur dog?

I'd guess very good at walking to heel of lead in a shoot environ, steady and quiet, any retreiving, stop whistle or handling would be a bit of a bonus, but fairly easily achieved

 

Any of the breeds could do wot u ask but the lab would in most cases do it easier esp the peg work/steadiness.

Prob the FT failure route to go is probably quite good, some can be very cheap, i was offered 1 for 600 quid, i would of called it fully trained, just not going to make the grade so he let it go for wot he paid for it.

The only problem in my eyes with some heavily bred modern FT lines, is the look and coat, i like the old fashioned looking dogs heavy set with a proper thicjk coat, my old lab esp would enter very thick cover no bother, esp if some scent in there

 

I'm not a big fan of cockers but thats a personal thing, seen far to many bad 1's over the years all giving noise etc and all these dogs were bred from, i have since seen some brilliant cockers but still feel they are too wee for many jobs. Now as so fashionable never a good thing for good breeding

 

If u go with a spaniel (or even a lab) i would probably not go for something with too much red FTCH's in its recent history, a good old fashioned proper working line of dogs would be ideal for u.

 

My advice would be get a lab and also join a group training class even if it is part/full trained already, training is a continous thing and will be ongoing. If in the future u get more confident and fancy a change go for it, but a lab is generally a very easy first step into shooting dogs are usualy fairly easy trained and very forgiving when u make a mistake

 

Also even if u find a fully trained 1 at the right money don't be in a hurry to take it shooting too early, u will still need to bond with it and figure each other out. Heard many stories of people buying a fully trained dog then taking it out shooting the next day, it does happen probably more than u'd think

 

Spot on :yes:

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I'd say if you want a cocker go for one. BUT be aware you'll need to work much harder in training and be constantly working on it for it to be a peg dog. If you go the cocker route I'd say go part trained, at least you can get a feel for the dogs steadiness with a demo and then have something to build on. The point being you get a better idea of temperament with the older dog than you can with a pup.

 

Essentially your asking a lot more of a cocker to do what you want then a lab, speak with a couple of pro trainers they may have suitable dogs ready.

 

If your going to go it totally alone your safest bet is a lab. There bred for it at the end of the day

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Thanks for the thoughts so far guys. Quite agree that I'm best off having a chat with a pro trainer, but always nice to get people's thoughts from their experiences to take in with me.

 

Much as I love the idea of a cocker, I had been expecting that I would be better served by a lab in this particular instance. Especially as it will be my first dog. I very much suspect that I would look for a puppy next time and have full input all the way (with appropriate assistance), but am keen to learn the ropes a little before diving in at the deep end and starting from scratch.

 

Great point about not taking it out straight away - I had anticipated probably not taking it on a shoot until the 2015 season, but will see how things go, if I get a good one which bonds well.

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Thanks for the thoughts so far guys. Quite agree that I'm best off having a chat with a pro trainer, but always nice to get people's thoughts from their experiences to take in with me.

 

Much as I love the idea of a cocker, I had been expecting that I would be better served by a lab in this particular instance. Especially as it will be my first dog. I very much suspect that I would look for a puppy next time and have full input all the way (with appropriate assistance), but am keen to learn the ropes a little before diving in at the deep end and starting from scratch.

 

Great point about not taking it out straight away - I had anticipated probably not taking it on a shoot until the 2015 season, but will see how things go, if I get a good one which bonds well.

 

If you buy a trained dog you have to see it working and check what its retrieved for damage to the ribs etc. If you buy a pup tomorrow say you wont be working it in 2015 at very most you will giving it some real thing experience at the very end of the season and the dog will be the focus not the shooting

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