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Labrador info please gents


beeredup
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I'm looking to add a lab to my Sprocker to work along side him, mainly as either a picking up dog or on the Marsh with me.

 

i have been offered a well bred greenBriar pup early next year, i want a dog pup as with my work month on month off know ing my luck a bitch will more than likely be in season when i come home and want to go shooting. Yes i know a gun dogs owner being away for 6 months a year is a curious arrangement but luckily my amazing wife keeps our sprocker ticking over nicely while i am away offshore she does little with him other than a bit of quartering and tennis ball hunts she is very consistent with him too.

 

my main concerns are:

 

ft bred dogs seem to be quite lean compared to a general working lab?

their coats seem thinner?

i must admit i really admire the Drakeshead and Greenbriar stamp of dog

would i be "wasting the potential" of such a dog by using it as i want?

 

what other blood lines should i look out for?

should i just go for a run of the mill Lab from good working lines?

 

i know the greenbriar pup will make an awesome shooting companion but would it suit my needs on the marsh?

 

thanks in advance for any advice

 

 

 

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Don't know much about labs but:

 

ft bred dogs seem to be quite lean compared to a general working lab?

their coats seem thinner?

- 'General' working labs you'll probably find have show lab in their lineage somewhere more recent than 'FT' labs. Hence the heavier stamp and layered coat, making them not 'better' swimmers but perhaps a tad more happy to go in in winter as they don't get as cold and wet through to the skin.

i must admit i really admire the Drakeshead and Greenbriar stamp of dog

would i be "wasting the potential" of such a dog by using it as i want?

Why? The dog doesn't know it's not winning Field Trials lol and will have a just as happy and fulfilled life with you than it would in any competition kennels, if not better!

Don't know enough to comment on your other questions :)

Edited by bigbird
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Sorry, but to say general working labs go back nearer to show lines than the labs currently being classed as FT lines is nonsense. If you dig far enough back in their pedigrees you'll find the likes of Swinbrook Tan etc, all working / trial dogs.

 

Dogs have thin coats because they live in warmer environments, live anything truly outside & it'll grow a wooly coat. The dog that won the trial I was at on Monday had a thick wooly coat, he was from one of the leading Trial kennels in the country.

 

Buy a dog with proven lineage, it parents may not have spent their time wild fowling but will have proven themselves to be bidable.

Edited by PERCE
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Speak to John H Jnr. Tell him what you want and he should find you the right litter. Mine came from him great coat well built not over leggy. There is some heavy duty trial blood on the male side and proven picking up dogs on the female as the line progresses. I am very grateful he and especially Nina didn't mess around and told me how it was accurately I got fed up of looking at the wrong type for my needs

I agree with your thoughts on type for wildfowling, if you see a proper lab shiver you need to get off the marsh coz the likelihood is you hypothermic yourself LOL

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Sorry, but to say general working labs go back nearer to show lines than the labs currently being classed as FT lines is nonsense. If you dig far enough back in their pedigrees you'll find the likes of Swinbrook Tan etc, all working / trial dogs.

 

Dogs have thin coats because they live in warmer environments, live anything truly outside & it'll grow a wooly coat. The dog that won the trial I was at on Monday had a thick wooly coat, he was from one of the leading Trial kennels in the country.

 

Buy a dog with proven lineage, it parents may not have spent their time wild fowling but will have proven themselves to be bidable.

I am sorry but in this instance I totally cannot agree. I have wildfowling friends who have outdoor kennelled dogs that lack undercoat and many heavy trail lines lack the big fat necks that keep the blood warm in winter while doing repeated water work and then wait around afterwards in unimaginable conditions we experience on the marshes in Jan / Feb.

 

SOME trial lines look like lurchers in build and have inadequate coats this blood must be avoided by the Wildfowler at all costs.

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Sorry, but to say general working labs go back nearer to show lines than the labs currently being classed as FT lines is nonsense. If you dig far enough back in their pedigrees you'll find the likes of Swinbrook Tan etc, all working / trial dogs.

 

Dogs have thin coats because they live in warmer environments, live anything truly outside & it'll grow a wooly coat. The dog that won the trial I was at on Monday had a thick wooly coat, he was from one of the leading Trial kennels in the country.

 

Buy a dog with proven lineage, it parents may not have spent their time wild fowling but will have proven themselves to be bidable.

 

 

Oh, I thought I was being all clever then because I once read an article about it and that's what it said :/ Pah, foiled again!

Edited by bigbird
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I am sorry but in this instance I totally cannot agree. I have wildfowling friends who have outdoor kennelled dogs that lack undercoat and many heavy trail lines lack the big fat necks that keep the blood warm in winter while doing repeated water work and then wait around afterwards in unimaginable conditions we experience on the marshes in Jan / Feb.

 

SOME trial lines look like lurchers in build and have inadequate coats this blood must be avoided by the Wildfowler at all costs.

 

Their dogs dogs still wont have show blood in them from the last 40 years so.

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Confused now....

Yes I agree that there'll be a mixture of show and trial lines in any general working lab in the country - what I'm saying is that the FT lines will have been more selectively bred away from the show lines for performance and other attributes than, say, a 'general' working dog which doesn't need to be to suit the average shooter/wildfowler/whatever. Hence GENERALLY a FT lab will very likely have less recent show blood.

Edited by bigbird
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Their dogs dogs still wont have show blood in them from the last 40 years so.

That I cannot say but why should a fowling dog contain show blood either? People have been out wildfowling from before the Lab even existed or the KC. Its a real situation to find good fowling dogs I have resolved the only real long term answer is to breed your own. Trails have had as much influence on changing breeds from their origins as showing as both extend certain features and ignore others as irrelevant to their need. I was reading not long back about the differences that could exist in a retriever made up on walked days or those on peg days, not something I fully get as I don't do it but I do get the differences of a dark cold winters night spent on the saltmarsh and freezing winswept sea retrieving 14 lb geese

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So is there a 'wildfowling' strain? Serious question, I know nothing about wildfowling

 

The fowling fraternity has always bred dogs but they are becoming harder to find

Big webbed paws for swimming ?

 

A lab should have these, mine does I think it comes from the Newfoundland used to create the first Labs

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You want a pup from mine ......lol. My lad has numerous Ftch & Ftw in his pedigree, but is a proper Lab with a thick double coat, webbed feet, good frame and really important a good head.

I see too many labs nowadays that look more like a whippet than a Lab.

As a wildfowling dog he excells, happy to sit for hours in a wet muddy hole then will retrieve anything that is presented from anywhere! Also we beat on a few shoots and is the dog that is called for when some of the trialling dogs who pick up cannot find shot birds!

If you want a Lab buy a Lab that looks like a Lab, buy it on how the parents work not just on the lineage and train it to work how you want it to work.

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You want a pup from mine ......lol. My lad has numerous Ftch & Ftw in his pedigree, but is a proper Lab with a thick double coat, webbed feet, good frame and really important a good head.

I see too many labs nowadays that look more like a whippet than a Lab.

As a wildfowling dog he excells, happy to sit for hours in a wet muddy hole then will retrieve anything that is presented from anywhere! Also we beat on a few shoots and is the dog that is called for when some of the trialling dogs who pick up cannot find shot birds!

If you want a Lab buy a Lab that looks like a Lab, buy it on how the parents work not just on the lineage and train it to work how you want it to work.

 

 

so when are you covering a bitch with him, and when can I place my order for a bitch pup please ??? Lol

 

Not even had my first flight and im itching for a 'dog for the job' already haha, cheers hh

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Easiest thing to do is ask the breeder/owner of both the sire and dam, wot they look like, coat type etc, possibly get a photo or call round and see them. If sire/stud has been used a few times wot type of pup does it tend to throw?

 

I think ur right some labs now are not wot i would call a lab and i don't think fit for purpose (could say the exact same about heavilt FT bred springers and cockers too) plenty of the modern type look like they've been crossed with a whippet and no longer have the double coat which is part of the breed standard. Not unusual to see these skinny excuses for labs shivering at a peg or picking there way throu cover as coat so thin.

 

I tend to think most of the older more extablished FT lines still tend to be more old fashioned type dogs (heavy set, squarish head and otter tails with a decent double coat) and most of the more established trialers still bred to type and do very well with them.

From wot i can see it is often the newer/younger lab lines that tend to look like whippets

 

The ironic thing is both FT and Show breeders look down there noses at genuine working lines yet these working lines will be nearer the breed standard than both the show (too big and heavy) and FT (too small) And just because it is not heavily FT bred does not mean it has show blood in it either, doubt any breeder in right mind would put a show lab into a working line

 

Until 30 odd yr ago no one bothered with FTCH breeding and just breed good beatingl lne/working dogst to oher good working dogs and seemed to produce decent lines, yes some FT blood does help but it has gone to far the other way now and too much focus on using an FTCH stud without finding out if that stud is the most suitable for the bitch, all about fashion and money.

Also in my opinion FT have evolved and now don't bear an awful lot of resebulance to a shoot day, and far too many folk invloved don't actually shoot so have no idea wot is actually needed in a god shooting dog

 

Best person to ask is the owners, don't know much about greenbrair lines but i have a drakeshead dog who is a proper old fashioned dog with quite a long wavy coat, got 1 of his sons too and is looking like a spitting image of him with long hair (still only 8mth)

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That about sums things up perfectly Scotslad. John Senior of course brought his dogs to trial from wildfowling originally as he travelled to the Dee from Burnley I believe? Many of todays trailers of course come via clubs and tests, many might never have held a gun before they went out and bought a gundog. Its happened with sheepdogs also hence the big money being paid by Americans and Chinese. A friend who trains Sheepdogs for work on farms says pretty much the same about a real difference starting to manifest in Border collies. I asked were the difference lay and he said "getting them ewes on a trailer, trail dogs wont bite" (in fact he said they have "no xxxxx teeth" but that sounds daft if you miss his point) "and the sheep soon learn that!" "That's ok if you have all day to get them down the auction and forget gathering the fell as they will bring 'em back in bunches of half a dozen a go!"

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