beeredup Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 I'm looking to add a lab to my Sprocker to work along side him, mainly as either a picking up dog or on the Marsh with me. i have been offered a well bred greenBriar pup early next year, i want a dog pup as with my work month on month off know ing my luck a bitch will more than likely be in season when i come home and want to go shooting. Yes i know a gun dogs owner being away for 6 months a year is a curious arrangement but luckily my amazing wife keeps our sprocker ticking over nicely while i am away offshore she does little with him other than a bit of quartering and tennis ball hunts she is very consistent with him too. my main concerns are: ft bred dogs seem to be quite lean compared to a general working lab? their coats seem thinner? i must admit i really admire the Drakeshead and Greenbriar stamp of dog would i be "wasting the potential" of such a dog by using it as i want? what other blood lines should i look out for? should i just go for a run of the mill Lab from good working lines? i know the greenbriar pup will make an awesome shooting companion but would it suit my needs on the marsh? thanks in advance for any advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Don't know much about labs but: ft bred dogs seem to be quite lean compared to a general working lab? their coats seem thinner? - 'General' working labs you'll probably find have show lab in their lineage somewhere more recent than 'FT' labs. Hence the heavier stamp and layered coat, making them not 'better' swimmers but perhaps a tad more happy to go in in winter as they don't get as cold and wet through to the skin. i must admit i really admire the Drakeshead and Greenbriar stamp of dog would i be "wasting the potential" of such a dog by using it as i want? Why? The dog doesn't know it's not winning Field Trials lol and will have a just as happy and fulfilled life with you than it would in any competition kennels, if not better! Don't know enough to comment on your other questions Edited September 3, 2014 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Sorry, but to say general working labs go back nearer to show lines than the labs currently being classed as FT lines is nonsense. If you dig far enough back in their pedigrees you'll find the likes of Swinbrook Tan etc, all working / trial dogs. Dogs have thin coats because they live in warmer environments, live anything truly outside & it'll grow a wooly coat. The dog that won the trial I was at on Monday had a thick wooly coat, he was from one of the leading Trial kennels in the country. Buy a dog with proven lineage, it parents may not have spent their time wild fowling but will have proven themselves to be bidable. Edited September 3, 2014 by PERCE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Speak to John H Jnr. Tell him what you want and he should find you the right litter. Mine came from him great coat well built not over leggy. There is some heavy duty trial blood on the male side and proven picking up dogs on the female as the line progresses. I am very grateful he and especially Nina didn't mess around and told me how it was accurately I got fed up of looking at the wrong type for my needs I agree with your thoughts on type for wildfowling, if you see a proper lab shiver you need to get off the marsh coz the likelihood is you hypothermic yourself LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Sorry, but to say general working labs go back nearer to show lines than the labs currently being classed as FT lines is nonsense. If you dig far enough back in their pedigrees you'll find the likes of Swinbrook Tan etc, all working / trial dogs. Dogs have thin coats because they live in warmer environments, live anything truly outside & it'll grow a wooly coat. The dog that won the trial I was at on Monday had a thick wooly coat, he was from one of the leading Trial kennels in the country. Buy a dog with proven lineage, it parents may not have spent their time wild fowling but will have proven themselves to be bidable. I am sorry but in this instance I totally cannot agree. I have wildfowling friends who have outdoor kennelled dogs that lack undercoat and many heavy trail lines lack the big fat necks that keep the blood warm in winter while doing repeated water work and then wait around afterwards in unimaginable conditions we experience on the marshes in Jan / Feb. SOME trial lines look like lurchers in build and have inadequate coats this blood must be avoided by the Wildfowler at all costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Sorry, but to say general working labs go back nearer to show lines than the labs currently being classed as FT lines is nonsense. If you dig far enough back in their pedigrees you'll find the likes of Swinbrook Tan etc, all working / trial dogs. Dogs have thin coats because they live in warmer environments, live anything truly outside & it'll grow a wooly coat. The dog that won the trial I was at on Monday had a thick wooly coat, he was from one of the leading Trial kennels in the country. Buy a dog with proven lineage, it parents may not have spent their time wild fowling but will have proven themselves to be bidable. Oh, I thought I was being all clever then because I once read an article about it and that's what it said Pah, foiled again! Edited September 3, 2014 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I am sorry but in this instance I totally cannot agree. I have wildfowling friends who have outdoor kennelled dogs that lack undercoat and many heavy trail lines lack the big fat necks that keep the blood warm in winter while doing repeated water work and then wait around afterwards in unimaginable conditions we experience on the marshes in Jan / Feb. SOME trial lines look like lurchers in build and have inadequate coats this blood must be avoided by the Wildfowler at all costs. Their dogs dogs still wont have show blood in them from the last 40 years so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Confused now.... Yes I agree that there'll be a mixture of show and trial lines in any general working lab in the country - what I'm saying is that the FT lines will have been more selectively bred away from the show lines for performance and other attributes than, say, a 'general' working dog which doesn't need to be to suit the average shooter/wildfowler/whatever. Hence GENERALLY a FT lab will very likely have less recent show blood. Edited September 3, 2014 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Their dogs dogs still wont have show blood in them from the last 40 years so. That I cannot say but why should a fowling dog contain show blood either? People have been out wildfowling from before the Lab even existed or the KC. Its a real situation to find good fowling dogs I have resolved the only real long term answer is to breed your own. Trails have had as much influence on changing breeds from their origins as showing as both extend certain features and ignore others as irrelevant to their need. I was reading not long back about the differences that could exist in a retriever made up on walked days or those on peg days, not something I fully get as I don't do it but I do get the differences of a dark cold winters night spent on the saltmarsh and freezing winswept sea retrieving 14 lb geese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 So is there a 'wildfowling' strain? Serious question, I know nothing about wildfowling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Big webbed paws for swimming ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 So is there a 'wildfowling' strain? Serious question, I know nothing about wildfowling The fowling fraternity has always bred dogs but they are becoming harder to find Big webbed paws for swimming ? A lab should have these, mine does I think it comes from the Newfoundland used to create the first Labs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 The fowling fraternity has always bred dogs but they are becoming harder to find Hmm maybe it's because of all those misspelled signs asking people not to let their dogs empty themselves on the pavements...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted September 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 thanks for the info lads and Lass please keep the debate going Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon 3 Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 You want a pup from mine ......lol. My lad has numerous Ftch & Ftw in his pedigree, but is a proper Lab with a thick double coat, webbed feet, good frame and really important a good head. I see too many labs nowadays that look more like a whippet than a Lab. As a wildfowling dog he excells, happy to sit for hours in a wet muddy hole then will retrieve anything that is presented from anywhere! Also we beat on a few shoots and is the dog that is called for when some of the trialling dogs who pick up cannot find shot birds! If you want a Lab buy a Lab that looks like a Lab, buy it on how the parents work not just on the lineage and train it to work how you want it to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedge hunter Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 You want a pup from mine ......lol. My lad has numerous Ftch & Ftw in his pedigree, but is a proper Lab with a thick double coat, webbed feet, good frame and really important a good head. I see too many labs nowadays that look more like a whippet than a Lab. As a wildfowling dog he excells, happy to sit for hours in a wet muddy hole then will retrieve anything that is presented from anywhere! Also we beat on a few shoots and is the dog that is called for when some of the trialling dogs who pick up cannot find shot birds! If you want a Lab buy a Lab that looks like a Lab, buy it on how the parents work not just on the lineage and train it to work how you want it to work. so when are you covering a bitch with him, and when can I place my order for a bitch pup please Lol Not even had my first flight and im itching for a 'dog for the job' already haha, cheers hh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Easiest thing to do is ask the breeder/owner of both the sire and dam, wot they look like, coat type etc, possibly get a photo or call round and see them. If sire/stud has been used a few times wot type of pup does it tend to throw? I think ur right some labs now are not wot i would call a lab and i don't think fit for purpose (could say the exact same about heavilt FT bred springers and cockers too) plenty of the modern type look like they've been crossed with a whippet and no longer have the double coat which is part of the breed standard. Not unusual to see these skinny excuses for labs shivering at a peg or picking there way throu cover as coat so thin. I tend to think most of the older more extablished FT lines still tend to be more old fashioned type dogs (heavy set, squarish head and otter tails with a decent double coat) and most of the more established trialers still bred to type and do very well with them. From wot i can see it is often the newer/younger lab lines that tend to look like whippets The ironic thing is both FT and Show breeders look down there noses at genuine working lines yet these working lines will be nearer the breed standard than both the show (too big and heavy) and FT (too small) And just because it is not heavily FT bred does not mean it has show blood in it either, doubt any breeder in right mind would put a show lab into a working line Until 30 odd yr ago no one bothered with FTCH breeding and just breed good beatingl lne/working dogst to oher good working dogs and seemed to produce decent lines, yes some FT blood does help but it has gone to far the other way now and too much focus on using an FTCH stud without finding out if that stud is the most suitable for the bitch, all about fashion and money. Also in my opinion FT have evolved and now don't bear an awful lot of resebulance to a shoot day, and far too many folk invloved don't actually shoot so have no idea wot is actually needed in a god shooting dog Best person to ask is the owners, don't know much about greenbrair lines but i have a drakeshead dog who is a proper old fashioned dog with quite a long wavy coat, got 1 of his sons too and is looking like a spitting image of him with long hair (still only 8mth) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 That about sums things up perfectly Scotslad. John Senior of course brought his dogs to trial from wildfowling originally as he travelled to the Dee from Burnley I believe? Many of todays trailers of course come via clubs and tests, many might never have held a gun before they went out and bought a gundog. Its happened with sheepdogs also hence the big money being paid by Americans and Chinese. A friend who trains Sheepdogs for work on farms says pretty much the same about a real difference starting to manifest in Border collies. I asked were the difference lay and he said "getting them ewes on a trailer, trail dogs wont bite" (in fact he said they have "no xxxxx teeth" but that sounds daft if you miss his point) "and the sheep soon learn that!" "That's ok if you have all day to get them down the auction and forget gathering the fell as they will bring 'em back in bunches of half a dozen a go!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Dont think anyone has mentioned the "Beaver tail"? another important asset! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon 3 Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Dont think anyone has mentioned the "Beaver tail"? another important asset! I call it "otter tail" Scotslad mentioned it in one of his posts - but is an important thing in a dog that is meant for water work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Dont think anyone has mentioned the "Beaver tail"? another important asset! Is there a joke in their I am not getting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) Is there a joke in their I am not getting? no, but sounds like there should be!! Beaver tail/Otter tail Edit: Think the yanks call them Beaver and we call them Otter??? Edited September 4, 2014 by silver pigeon69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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