Ligaments

[Anthony.D]

Hello,

Does anyone have any experience of a partially ruptured or torn (the same I think) spaniels knee ligament. The vet has said it hopefully won't need surgery and to rest it. Boy oh boy, how hard is that!

It's been 4 weeks now and I would say it's improved by 50%, up to about 75% normal, hard to say with her only walking and sometimes running in the garden.

I'm trying not to compare day by day and thinking week by week. Off to see the vet again later today.

 

[bigbird]

Ooh is it the cruciate ligament? Quite common in Spaniels I hear to damage the cruciate

[DazzJo]

My boxer ruptured his Cruciate ligament in his rear left leg, I had it sorted it out just before Christmas last year it's cost a hell of a lot of money it was fine for over 7-8 months and he's been limping the past 3 weeks on odd days so I'm beginning to think it's gone again. You think keeping a spaniel is hard to rest up try resting a brain dead 36kg boxer dog it's impossible!!

[archi]

My springer did her rear cruciate

Had it repaired and plenty of indoor pool swimming to help build up muscle etc and a virtually a year to the day the opposite leg cruciate went so had 2 nice vet bills within 12 months

She still worked but was too hard hunting for he own good

[Anthony.D]

Thanks both. Yes keeping them in or on a lead for short walks is hard. Even opening the back door with a lead in your hand starts them leaping around. Then its 1 step forward and 2 steps back. They say the bigger the dog the harder the treatment because of the weight on the knees. I suppose spaniels are right in the middle but because of their very busy nature surgery becomes more practical.

In the mean time I'm now thinking of a sports ice spray but should really have done this at the very start. See what the vet has to say.

He's already on Cod Liver oil and Glucosamine/chondroitin, more to make me feel as if I'm doing something I suppose. Some authorities say it helps, some not.

Archi, do you mean she could only work for short spells?

[tiny tim]

have you seen a specialist vet ,your normal vet will not see this too often but a greyhound vet will be dealing with this on a weekly basis ....ring your local greyhound track and get the number if there vet .

 

four weeks is nothing I had a lurcher with this and my vet <greyhound> confined it to cage rest for 8 weeks ,only allowed in the garden on the lead ...

it was a nightmare but the dog made a full recovery

don't let it run about in the garden.

where is your location......hope it goes ok

[Anthony.D]

Thanks Tim, you're a better man than me. It sounds a real mare.

Right went to the vet today. He said there was some movement with the 'drawer test' - sliding the knee forward in the joint. An intact cruciate would prevent this. On his advice I'm going back tomorrow to see one of the other vets who is more experienced in this area. Apparantly he does 4-5 cruciate surgery ops per week. Ice treatment would have helped on day one to bring down the inflammation, not really now. CLO and glucosamine possibly could help?

So, as per Tim, it made me feel a bit better that a second experienced opinion was being sought. I think my vet was good not being scared, arrogant at all to want this.

Tomorrow depending on how certain the other guy is, the dog may have to have a GA and an Xray to confirm the diagnosis. Then discuss treatment options.

The dog will do anything to please us so it makes me feel better doing the right thing even though the cost hurts. I wish I had been insured, but only me to blame.

PS. Swansea

Edited September 30, 2014 by Anthony.D

[tiny tim]

mine was on glucosomine and had laser treatnment as well..

 

good luck with the dog and let us all know how you get on...tim

Edited September 30, 2014 by tiny tim

[Anthony.D]

Thanks Tim and OF.

In case it helps someone else.

Went to the vet this am. He didn't mention an xray. Just looked at the dog walking and manipulated the knee - 'it's gone completely'. He does about 4 per week, I was happy with his diagnosis. I know people will say an xray is needed, he could have bumped up the bill?

Two options.

1. leave alone if the quality of life is acceptable. It would not improve in a working dog like a spaniel. He would not be able to work for a reasonable time or on difficult terrain.

2. Surgery. He said there are about 147 different cruciate ops, he did 2.

(a) A titanium hinge plated, screwed on. Expensive due to all the hinges, screws etc. I can understand this having a little knowledge of implants.

( Holes drilled in bone and 80llb b/s fishing line used to replace the cruciate, basically. Over half the price of 1st.

He couldn't, wouldn't give a 100% success, and said 90% for both. Post op recooperation 6 weeks. Both ops would restore the dog to 90% function..

To make me feel better he said the damage had started quite some time ago, ending in the snapped ACL.

For dogs over 35kgs the prognosis is v.poor, about 60% of dogs with one ACL gone, the other one goes (I'm getting him insured).

I decided on the op because as most will agree spaniels, and other working dogs, are most happy when working. The thought of having him couped up and watching as I went out without him was bad. There will be other stuff but I can't remember.

I opted for the 2nd, doing it tomorrow.

As the dog has been cooped up for 4 weeks with another 6 ahead I took him for a fairly good walk, nothing too strenuous - average. He was limping badly after car journey home. This was enough for me. right decision made. All at Gower Vets were brilliant.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Anthony.D

[ollie]

My springer did her cruciate in May 2013. It was quite bad as she was carrying her leg.

 

One vet quoted us £500 but another quoted £250. We got the operation & moved the dog inside to retire; however, I took her back to the vet a few months ago & they said the leg was quite strong again.

 

Since then I have had her out shooting again but only short journeys with not too much work involved. If your springer was like mine & would bust through a brick wall, then I'm afraid it may never be the same again, but I hope for you & the dogs sake that this is not the case.

[Anthony.D]

Just been out the garden. He can hardly walk on it, so it's got to be an improvement I hope. Thanks

[apache]

The lateral suture technique is very cost effective and does have a success rate comparable to the more expensive procedures! In the case of failure you are only left with the dog as it was before the op. If the complex ops with screws and metalwork fail then you have problems.

 

I personally know a good number of dogs back in normal work after cruciate surgery. It's important to build up the exercise - not do nothing for 6 weeks post op. You need to maintain and build muscle strength. Swimming is great but not always available.

 

The majority of cruciate problems are caused by age related degeneration in dogs, so it is common for the other knee to go. There is not an insurance company in the world that would pay for the 2nd op if the policy was started after the first!

[tiny tim]

good luck with the op

let us know how you get on ..tim

[Anthony.D]

Thanks yes, I've seen human implant screws work loose. Granted they were probably the older techniques, things have improved fantastically in a short number of years, so probably vetinery ones have also.

Yes strict 6 weeks lead only walks, garden steps will comlicate things. Perhaps a little ramp will help. I can take him swimming after the stitches come out, normally 7-10 days, best excercise they reckon.

The vet said it was in a bad way, lots of fluid coming out on incision, but the meniscus joint disc was intact which was great.

I asked about insurance of the other leg (I had phoned several Ins Co's. All but one said no, one said yes if the Vet could say it was OK). He said he had xrays of both knees and the other one was fine - great. So I could get it insured. However over the years I have developed a severe dislike and mistrust of Ins. Co's. I'm sorry if I upset anyone but they are the scum of the earth, and I'm cynically sure they would try to get out of paying for the other leg if it went. Which it is not going to do!!

I have been 100% honest with them, I could have tried to fiddle this one, but I'm not going down that route.

Anyway rant over. The vet said the op went really well, loved the dog, his last dog was a working ESS. He's very groggy, big healthy scar, on AB's and Pain Killers but still trying to wag his tail - he's the best ever! So it's a wait and see and fingers crossed, touch wood etc.

AgainI can't praise Gower Vets enough. I've since found out all the local shooting, beating dogs etc. go there. I've found a good one.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Anthony.D

[DazzJo]

I'm glad everything went well mate all the best with a speedy recovery for him

[loriusgarrulus]

Good to know it went OK.

[Anthony.D]

Thanks all. I'll give an update in a week.

[Anthony.D]

Giving an update incase it helps someone with the same problem, I hope not.

Sorry if it bores others.

Well the op. was 5 weeks yesterday. Keeping the dog in is very hard initially. Possibly because you're so used to the taking them out routine and the looks they give you - what have I done wrong?. But it has to be done, strict lead walks, hard to do but vital. It does then get easier as you and the dog get used to it.

After about 1 week he got a couple of stitches out. The vet used a staple gun to replace them. No LA, extremely quick, hardly any flinching! Brilliant.

Two weeks post op his knee swelled up in a matter of hours, very scary. The vet was not that concerned, it's a seroma and will go down in about 2 weeks, a common complication probably caused by him doing too much. He said no drainage required unless it really hurts, drainage can open a path for infection. All internet sites say they don't hurt, well it hurt definitely made his limp worse.

It took about 2.5 weeks to go down, still v.slightly swollen.

He's now going out for 2-3, 15-20 min lead walks per day, and some deep water swimming 2-3 mins on one walk.. The muscle wastage on that leg is obvious and will take some building up. He walks fine on the leg, limps a little at night sometimes. I must admit I do let him off the lead for a very short time on open ground, no dogs, squirrels etc. to do his business and have a sniff around.

The main problems have been,

1. Me letting him do too much

2. Him putting on weight due to restricted exercise.

Anyway I can see light at the end of the tunnel, recooperation going fine, but it's still going to be a long haul. I'm planning short easy shooting outings (one an easy 15 min walk down the marsh, no ups and downs, maybe some easy swimming if I get something) in a few weeks but am very apprehensive / scared. I'll have to have a serious think first.

[darren m]

its all worth it mate as long as you don't rush it,do exactly as the vet tells you.

 

my middle springer as had both her cruciates done , metal plates still in there , had a few problems though screws came out , meniscus tore , then an infection

 

I take it easy with her work wise but she as had a few days out and worked well , only prob she seems to have is sitting correctly so I don't enforce it any more , if I blow the stop whistle she stops and stands which is fine . I also try not to let her run long distance or at speed if poss as its when they put the breaks on damage can occur.

[Old farrier]

Hi

Glad the dogs going on ok

Speedy recovery

All the best

Of

[Anthony.D]

Thanks Darren and OF, Yes me rushing it is the big problem. I took him to the local deep pond today to swim and there were some mallard there.

He enjoyed that swim! But then went into work mode briefly, limping a bit tonight. After a 20 min lead walk he's fine, as you said it's the sudden bursts and stops.

So yes a long way to go. I'm realizing this season is probably out.

[ollie]

The vet told me that swimming was one of the best exercises for my spaniel when she tore her cruciate. However, you probably have to wait until the first 6 weeks are over.

 

My spaniel has been out a few times this season, but they are short sessions and when the terrain is favourable. It now has been approx 18 months since her operation.

[Anthony.D]

Hi Ollie,

How is she after 18 months? Are the sessions rough shooting, beating ? How short are the sessions?

Thanks

[ollie]

Hi Ollie,

How is she after 18 months? Are the sessions rough shooting, beating ? How short are the sessions?

Thanks

I had her at the flight pond retrieving once and out rough shooting once. Hope to get her out again at the end of this week.

 

She used to be able to work all day but I don't want to risk anymore than a couple of hours. I'm avoiding ground that is steep (which is hard where I live) or rocky because I don't want her to slip.

 

Since she had surgery she has lived inside, so she is more a pet now, but she still loves getting out. Good luck with your dog.

[Anthony.D]

Thanks Ollie. The terrain here can be rough also. I was thinking, and will do the same as you. Good advice, thanks again.