Scully Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 it would be a good thing in my view if when anyone posts a thread on here about certificates being revoked that the full facts are posted about the case as the op of this one makes it appear that a totally innocent person has had his cert pulled for no good reason. I wasn't under that impression though, as like you, I doubt revocations are carried out for no good reason, but we will see. idoubt this will be the case. Agreed. also if they were doing another 38 of these calls for the same reason I also doubt it would be done on a casual basis like we will do them as we get around to it. I can't recall any mention of doing 'another 38 calls for the same reason' , just that they had another 38 knocks to do; no reason was given as far as I'm aware. The reason remains to be seen. revokes are swift. Agreed. as for the other visit it seems as this is nothing more than what has always been allowed under home office firearms rules. While I can agree that the 'other visit' is nothing more than what has always been allowed under HO rules, it was an 'unannounced visit' to check security as outlined in ACPO's 'new initiative', which was something some on this forum reckoned wasn't likely to happen. It is happening. It may not be an issue for any of us as we should have our security in order, but despite claims by some to the contrary, it is happening. In all the years I have been a firearms holder, and throughout all the 'troubles' when bombs were going off with horrendous casualties in N.Ireland and here on the mainland I have never had an unannounced visit on the grounds of a spurious link between legitimate shooters and a national security threat. But despite falling numbers in lost/stolen firearms ACPO have seen fit to introduce a 'new initiative' on these grounds. Unlike some, I would like to know why. the two are totally different..Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Just reading this and I'm just wondering what the issue is? Do Shotgun and Firearm cert holders resent unannounced checks or am I missing something, I'm genuinely interested as there's a couple of threads around this subject and I don't understand them.... On the face of it, there isn't really an issue. Unfortunately, the way it was linked to the terrorist and criminal activity didn't help. However, it isn't just on the face of it. It's continually two faced and in other aspects of civilian firearm ownership the police are continually operating beyond their legal remit so it's hardly surprising that people take offence. You could have a look at Post #1 on the MP/Home Office/ Porkies thread and read Norman Baker's letter. Unless Parrots2 has done something naughty (I'm sure he hasn't) then 8:30 on a Saturday night sounds distinctly like unsocial hours to me. It would be interesting to hear from the Parrots2 what the "justified and specific reason" that he was given for this untimely visit was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) There are no new powers, revised guidance and a statement that we (as certificate holders were vulnerable to radicalisation) and the police wanted to do random checks. Also there was the "hotline for reporting cert holders! Edited November 17, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 My last renewal my fao phoned me to do the customary visit and said he would be late as he had several other calls to do.he arrived at 10.30pm.was there for around 20 minutes.yes it was what you might call an unsocial hour but let's not forget he was working the same unsocial hours and from what I have seen from the last vacancy details for lincs police the pay is a pittance.As far as I was concerned I was home it got the job done without delays.we can't pick and choose when it is unsocial.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 looks like there out to see how many certs, they can collect in one night,dont know what its coming to,they just dont want us to have guns, and will do any thing to take them away from us, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 .As far as I was concerned I was home it got the job done without delays.we can't pick and choose when it is unsocial.atb Yes we can. I'm afraid that you've missed the point entirely. Yours was NOT an unannounced visit - you agreed to it. I had several guests at that hour on Saturday and if it had been my door bell and if a "justified and specific reason" had not been forthcoming as is the specified requirement for it, they'd have been sent packing and then first thing this morning my association and the PCC would have heard about it, the latter in no uncertain terms. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 My last renewal my fao phoned me to do the customary visit and said he would be late as he had several other calls to do.he arrived at 10.30pm.was there for around 20 minutes.yes it was what you might call an unsocial hour but let's not forget he was working the same unsocial hours and from what I have seen from the last vacancy details for lincs police the pay is a pittance.As far as I was concerned I was home it got the job done without delays.we can't pick and choose when it is unsocial.atb Mick Ah, Wymberley beat me to it. Must learn to type faster ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Yes we can. I'm afraid that you've missed the point entirely. Yours was NOT an unannounced visit - you agreed to it. I had several guests at that hour on Saturday and if it had been my door bell and if a "justified and specific reason" had not been forthcoming as is the specified requirement for it, they'd have been sent packing and then first thing this morning my association and the PCC would have heard about it, the latter in no uncertain terms. Cheers. +1 That was a prearranged visit you knew he was coming! We are talking about unannounced vista where the police (not feo) but potentially uniformed officers just knock on your door! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) Yes we can. I'm afraid that you've missed the point entirely. Yours was NOT an unannounced visit - you agreed to it. I had several guests at that hour on Saturday and if it had been my door bell and if a "justified and specific reason" had not been forthcoming as is the specified requirement for it, they'd have been sent packing and then first thing this morning my association and the PCC would have heard about it, the latter in no uncertain terms. Cheers. And you would have been within your rights to deny entry.As for the pcc why have you not sent in complaints regarding the acpo initiative as it is clearly unlawfully.so should be an easy one for them to rectify.also with durham complain to PCC regarding medical forms.again not lawful so another easy fix.simple really when you think about it. Atb Edited November 17, 2014 by bostonmick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew f Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) So if plod came knocking I could polity tell him were he could go Just reading this and I'm just wondering what the issue is? Do Shotgun and Firearm cert holders resent unannounced checks or am I missing something, I'm genuinely interested as there's a couple of threads around this subject and I don't understand them.... Maybe its because some people don't follow the rules very well like leaving bolts in the rifle etc. or its just a pain if you just got back from work about have your dinner and plod turns up Edited November 17, 2014 by andrew f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 So if plod came knocking I could polity tell him were he could go Maybe its because some people don't follow the rules very well like leaving bolts in the rifle etc. or its just a pain if you just got back from work about have your dinner and plod turns up But it is not illegal to keep bolts in rifles ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 On the face of it, there isn't really an issue. Unfortunately, the way it was linked to the terrorist and criminal activity didn't help. However, it isn't just on the face of it. It's continually two faced and in other aspects of civilian firearm ownership the police are continually operating beyond their legal remit so it's hardly surprising that people take offence. You could have a look at Post #1 on the MP/Home Office/ Porkies thread and read Norman Baker's letter. Unless Parrots2 has done something naughty (I'm sure he hasn't) then 8:30 on a Saturday night sounds distinctly like unsocial hours to me. It would be interesting to hear from the Parrots2 what the "justified and specific reason" that he was given for this untimely visit was. Thanks, a little bit clearer now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew f Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 But it is not illegal to keep bolts in rifles ! just empty the mag then>? was always told to take it out by my Firearms officer just doing what I am told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Yes we can. I'm afraid that you've missed the point entirely. Yours was NOT an unannounced visit - you agreed to it. I had several guests at that hour on Saturday and if it had been my door bell and if a "justified and specific reason" had not been forthcoming as is the specified requirement for it, they'd have been sent packing and then first thing this morning my association and the PCC would have heard about it, the latter in no uncertain terms. Cheers. No I never missed the point. I was just saying that you cannot be selective when deciding which situation is deemed unsocial.at some time in the near future there will be a meeting of the forces to discuss the results of any of these unannounced checks.if the result is that say 500 checks carried out all found in order no problems then the newspapers will not carry the story however if the result shows hostile and obstructive behaviour on the part of certificate holders just imagine the daily headlines. Sometimes you have to play to the audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 You should let your shooting organization know about the unannounced visit. This should not be happening, unless the police had some specific intelligence of wrongdoing or concern at your address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Best to keep an eye out in case they do turn up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 thats a nice picture, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Its his under paid look out in case plod arrives with out asking if it OK to call.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lister22 Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Just reading this and I'm just wondering what the issue is? Do Shotgun and Firearm cert holders resent unannounced checks or am I missing something, I'm genuinely interested as there's a couple of threads around this subject and I don't understand them.... Yes I do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 just empty the mag then>? was always told to take it out by my Firearms officer just doing what I am told. And this is the whole crux of the saga. The police making up the law as they go along and people accepting as gospel everything they are told and then believing it is law. As I pointed out, there is no requirement to take bolts out of rifles, nor must magazines be emptied. Nor should the police make unannounced visits on the off chance they may catch someone out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 And you would have been within your rights to deny entry.As for the pcc why have you not sent in complaints regarding the acpo initiative as it is clearly unlawfully.so should be an easy one for them to rectify.also with durham complain to PCC regarding medical forms.again not lawful so another easy fix.simple really when you think about it. Atb The point is Mick,is that this is the very reason we pay our sub's to our shooting organisations. There is nothing to stop any individual from contacting the pcc or our local licensing authority, but if that doesn't get the desired result when they are acting as you say 'unlawfully', then it is then down to our shooting organisations to take up the gavel on our behalf. That is what they are there for, as they themselves will claim with slogans such as 'the voice of shooting', and 'protect the future of shooting' etc etc. They want our money, let them earn it. Unfortunately in this instance our shooting organisations don't seem to be having much effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 As I have said, we need more people to complain formally when the licencing staff are off side, without formal complains the orgnisations are in a much weaker position when we go to the senior officers to complain. We get hit with ' There are no complains on file, shooters including you members are complying with what we have said so where is the problem?' Complaints can be made on line and your specific constabulary can be contacted off the IPCC web site here: https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints More help and advice on this from BASC in the very near future. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 As I have said, we need more people to complain formally when the licencing staff are off side, without formal complains the orgnisations are in a much weaker position when we go to the senior officers to complain. We get hit with ' There are no complains on file, shooters including you members are complying with what we have said so where is the problem?' Complaints can be made on line and your specific constabulary can be contacted off the IPCC web site here: https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints More help and advice on this from BASC in the very near future. David I can see your point entirely David, which is a fair point, but if BASC has given some members the advice to comply, which has been the case with at least one BASC member on this forum, then that individual wont complain, as they have been advised to comply. Not all individuals within your organisation seem to be singing from the same sheet, and certainly not all organisations are also. On another forum a CPSA member was asked 'how much do you want your certificate?' when he contacted them to ask if he should comply with his licensing authorities request for a medical report. Even if there is a need to supply further information through a declaration on an application of a medical condition, it is STILL NOT the responsibility of the applicant to contact their own GP for the report and pay for it, as has been the impression given on here. That responsibility still lays with the applicants licensing authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 thats a nice picture, Thank you Its his under paid look out in case plod arrives with out asking if it OK to call.... Underpaid!? 9 months old and has cost me a fortune already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Scully, thank you very much. I understand exactly what you are saying and take your point fully on board If a medical condition has been declared on the official application / renewal document then yes a medical report will be needed, if not then no medical report is required. The issue over who pays is a matter of concern I agree and one that we are still trying to crack David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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