Gun shop staff moan

[RossEM]

My brother bought a secondhand gun today, it's a 20 bore Winchester 23 and he paid £750. The member of staff dealing with him told him it was choked 1/4 & 1/4 - however after further checking, it turns out that the gun is actually choked Improved & Full. This got me annoyed, as he plans to use it for a bit of duck shooting, steel shot will be on the menu and therefore he'll have to shell out more money to have the barrels bored out.

 

Was it such a chore for the shop assistant to use a choke gauge to double check? And if he didn't have the tool, why give advice when you don't know what you're talking about?

 

I've had other experiences with guns sold to myself and friends in the past which were patently unsafe, with actions opening upon firing (no exaggeration), firing pins sheared off, ejectors not functioning, barrels pitted & dented among other problems.

 

Granted, the secondhand gun market can be a minefield and you should choose carefully - which I have learned through experience - but is it really too much to ask that gun shop staff should have an idea of what they are selling before money changes hands?? Guns cannot be sold when out of proof but is there a case for similar restrictions on guns which are non-functioning or otherwise unsafe?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spandit]

Take it back if it was sold as described.

[matone]

Have you measured it with a bore guage or are you just reading the markings ?

[fenboy]

As above , the gun could have been bored out from the original markings .

If I had particulary wanted to use steel through a gun I would have brought one rated as such so I could use it through any choke.

 

If you have been sold guns with pitted and dented barrles then thats as much your fault as the seller , its not hard to look down a barrel .

 

In any case you would be better taking the gun back to the shop and discussing with them than complaining on here.

[Gordon R]

I would be straight back to the shop.

 

I presume you and your friends did the same thing when you were sold guns which were patently unsafe.

[retromlc]

choke is also the relationship between the actual bore and the restriction,one of those cheap choke guage keys you can buy aren't accurate,the other thing to note is the just because a person works in a gun shop doesn't mean they know a single thing about guns beyond you or I,It's a job to them not a love of the sport vocation.It's the same is all shops,assistants are just that,not a mine of usful knowledge,If you take it to a gunsmith and have the bores measured properly and if the chokes aren't as described ,take the gun back,explain the situation and I'm sure a replacemnt gun will be offered.

[Gunman]

Ross ,If you have had that sort of experiences with gun shops then you are going to the wrong shops . Some one told me that we were expensive , but I have never sold a gun that was not fully functional , as described and told the buyer if there was any problem to come straight back and have it put right .Biggest problem with a lot of gun shops is that the staff no ****** all about what they are selling .I am constantly getting guns from shops that they have sold that need work that should have been done before the gun was offered for sale . If you were looking at a gun that I was selling and wanted to know what the chokes were I would measure them in front of you , even bore them to what you want as part of the deal . But then again and I mean no disrespect , it seems customers get price or service, you can not always both.

[welshwarrior]

Ross ,If you have had that sort of experiences with gun shops then you are going to the wrong shops . Some one told me that we were expensive , but I have never sold a gun that was not fully functional , as described and told the buyer if there was any problem to come straight back and have it put right .Biggest problem with a lot of gun shops is that the staff no ****** all about what they are selling .I am constantly getting guns from shops that they have sold that need work that should have been done before the gun was offered for sale . If you were looking at a gun that I was selling and wanted to know what the chokes were I would measure them in front of you , even bore them to what you want as part of the deal . But then again and I mean no disrespect , it seems customers get price or service, you can not always both.

I couldn't agree more I regularly hear but you guns a bit more expensive, clients then appear with a cheap gun in poor condition that doesn't really fit say can you help me, of course we can their cheap gun just got more expensive!

[Guest cookoff013]

well, i think you have little recourse, the gun was bought as is, he could also complain that he might not be able to shoot 20gauge slugs through it.

 

without being a complete numpty, i wouldnt be considering 20gauge on ducks and steel, the steel loads are notoriously slow. as he`s contemplating a "bit" of duck shooting he should consider some premium shot type like itx / itm / niceshot etc. it may actually be cheaper in the short run, maybe not the long run though. he`ll get better performance though.

 

now without being condescending your brother has selected a fine gun for lead, not ideal for steel, but very suitable for premium nontoxic shotshells.

 

so thats just Impact tungsten matrix or "niceshot". it may actually be cheaper to reload your own. it may be even cheaper to take a flight to the states, pick up some niceshot and then bring it back !

 

the steel loads available are 2.75" 24g #5 steel (#6 US) from gamebore... same loads by hull cartridge....24g #5

lylevale have a 4 in steel, thats slightly better (decoys, etc)

 

the premium nontoxics are £35 for 25 shells, (bismuth) and £65 for 25 shells.(itx) where as steel is approx £8 box or £230 / k.

 

i can understand the frustration, as steel and other nontoxics is a minefield, its just he selected a gun for a task, that there is very little market for.

 

i think in this case its his responsibility to open up the chokes. i think it`ll be about £30 total. its a second hand gun, sold as seen.

 

good luck and i hope yousort this out.

[timps]

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 covers you for anything sold including second hand. Part of the regulations are the goods must be "As Described" if you asked and it was then described as 1/4 1/4 and it's not they are then in breach.

 

The problem is if it's a verbal description then proving it can be a little harder, but I would argue it's a question most buyers would reasonably ask for a fixed choke gun.

 

If you want to apply a little pressure you can contact trading standards,not much help if the shop digs it's heals in but sometimes can persuade a shop to be a little more understanding.

 

But how you have outlined the transaction taking place the verbal description given by the shop is in breach of the sale of goods act.

[RossEM]

For clarification we've used a choke gauge so pretty certain our measurements are correct. It is reassuring to read Gunman's comments and that is the kind of service anyone buying a gun deserves, and thanks to all for the other positive comments. Reading my original post back I should clarify that my Brother told the shop assistant that he would like to shoot duck with it using steel cartridges, and was told by the assistant that the gun was choked 1/4 & 1/4, incorrectly.

 

I think shop assistants at the very least should know that a gun is in safe, working condition before it is sold, and should be able to give an accurate description of the gun (i.e. is the safety automatic, what the chokes are, what the chamber length is, etc etc.) I'm not suggesting they should all have a gunsmith's knowledge, but I would expect the minimal level to include a working knowledge of the operational parts!

 

I will happily name & shame the shops which these unsafe guns have been sold from via PM if anyone is interested, but suffice to say all were long established and supposedly reputable.

 

In the case of the gun I bought with the firing pin sheared off (a Remington pump), I returned it to the shop at a Game Fair in front of a lot of people and got a full refund in under a minute. I was not at all happy with the shop as it transpired they'd also 'forgotten' that the gun should have been supplied with a case and chokes.

 

In the case of the gun that opened upon firing (a 1990's Miroku) the gun was sent for repair, returned within a week and the problem promptly reoccurred, at which point my friend got his money back. He bought a new Baikal after that and has had no issues with it.

 

Another friend unluckily bought both the gun with the dented barrel (a Birmingham hammergun) and the one with a non-functioning ejector (old Beretta O/U). The barrel dent was in fairness, very hard to spot. The shop had it tapped out by a gunsmith and sent for reproof, which it passed. The non functioning ejector on the Beretta was quickly repaired free of charge and is still working, as far as I know.

 

I forgot to mention another instance - my boss had his gun (Grade 1 Browning) fitted to him by his local 'gunsmith', who promptly bent it off with right hand cast - however my boss is left handed!

 

I suppose the after-sales service of any of the shops can't be faulted, but my grievance with the above instances is that guns are being sold without even the most cursory of checks, let alone test firing.

 

 

Just as a footnote, Cookoff013, I shot a lot of Express Steel 4's through my old Medalist 20 bore and had great results, the loads were not slow, I shot decoyed pigeon, driven and walked up pheasant, walked up snipe, flight pond mallard, teal & wigeon, decoyed canada geese and flighted greylag geese with no problems whatsoever. I agree those Express steel cartridges are very good. Let's not have a debate about the effectiveness of steel shot! A gun shop has got to be pretty dodgy to sell a gun 'as seen' , I'm sure I don't need to point out how dangerous that is.

[Dr D]

Caveat emptor

[ChrisAsh]

Choke gauges are based upon the set standard value of the diameter of the inside of the barrel, unfortunatly guns are allowed quite a large variation whilst still being classified as xxgauge with 12 gauge possibly being the widest rage of measurements

 

Te result is that a .005 choke will depend on the actual bore size rather than the standard bore size for that gauge, so the metal drop in choke indicator can be out and it really needs the actual bore and choke to be physically checked

[7daysinaweek]

Caveat emptor

BUYER BEWARE!

[Gordon R]

For clarification we've used a choke gauge so pretty certain our measurements are correct.

 

 

Choke gauges are about as much use as snap caps. If you mean the tapered tube type, with graduations for degrees of choke, you will do well to be "pretty certain".

[RossEM]

Gordon, the gauge we have at work is similar to this one: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/121849/skeets-shorty-shotgun-choke-and-barrel-micrometer-gage-12-16-gauge

On the upside, the Winchester is a great little gun, shame they're so rare as I'd be after one!

[clayman]

and the little piece of advice that seems to have been missed, is that choke is a combined function of the cartridge used and the guns restriction. It is measured as the output on a pattern plate, not at the gun.

 

It is entirely right that drop in gauges only give an approximation of choke, and BASC studies have show that marked / measured choke designations can be as much a 2 or even 3 increments out when the gun is shot to a pattern plate. They have a ballistics committee report available to any-one interested in their findings.

 

Certainly, bore to throat measurements tighten up the theoretical output, but bottom line the ONLY way to get a true choke measurement is over several shots taken at a pattern plate and a pellet count in the prescribed circle.

 

As suggested, the sellers have an obligation to put things right or refund if you have been mis-sold. One simple solution is to have the Full ( if it actually is) reamed out to 1/2 or more and get it steel proofed.

[brett1985]

A gun shop has got to be pretty dodgy to sell a gun 'as seen' , I'm sure I don't need to point out how dangerous that is.

 

i think that may be a matter of opinion really.

 

i know of a couple of shops that offer guns on an 'as seen' basis, i.e. no warranty. BUT, they have all been checked to make sure they are safe.

 

thats were the difference is.

[Dekers]

As already stated.......take it back, and you go to some right dodgy gun shops looking at the list of faults on guns you have bought!

[RossEM]

As already stated.......take it back, and you go to some right dodgy gun shops looking at the list of faults on guns you have bought!

Not up to me, it's my Brother's and he doesn't want to take it back - it's a rare gun and he got it relatively cheap.

 

In my experience it's been the shops without resident gunsmith that I've had problems with. I should add that the instances above are mostly friends of mine, not me. I can tell you which ones they are by PM but I don't think it's fair to post them on the thread.

[RossEM]

 

i think that may be a matter of opinion really.

 

i know of a couple of shops that offer guns on an 'as seen' basis, i.e. no warranty. BUT, they have all been checked to make sure they are safe.

 

thats were the difference is.

Brett, I think it depends on what the fault is. Guns with severely pitted barrels are out of proof, therefore cannot be sold (at least the barrels can't be.) If the gun shop owner doesn't have or cannot use a tool to measure the pitting then they cannot be sure it's legal to sell it. The faulty ejector isn't so serious, just annoying.