lab question ???

[hedge hunter]

Right you lovely lot. I have a question which i would like your advice and input on if possible, i have always been a spaniel man myself and love the breed to bits. But this last season i have taken up wildfowling, and as much as my little cocker loves accompanying me on the marsh i cannot honestly see her making the grade, and after witnessing the harsh winter tides first hand, i can say im not to keen on sending her for certain retrives. It's obvious a good strong lab is whats needed here.

 

Now to my question, is there a strain out there or has anyone seen a good hard hunting lab before, i dont mean the type that you can send for a 200yrd retrive is some harsh ferns. But a lab that is willing to get into thick harsh cover and pyhsically work to flush game as would a spaniel. I know diffrent horses for courses, but if a lab puppy was entered correctly could you get a good all round hunting companion, willing to sit in a muddy ditch or pigeon hide, but just as comfortable and willing yo go beating and work hedgerows whilst rought shooting. I know its a big ask but surley theres got to be some out there, i look forward to your replys. Cheers hh

[geordieh]

I used to have one I had to put her down in 2013 at 13years old, she would quarter and turn on the whistle no more than 15 -20 yds in front, on open partridge ground and stubbles she would quarter like a pointer and cover huge amounts of ground.She would point pheasant and partridge.Retrieve fox.and geese.And would track wounded deer.I got her just as I was splitting up with my ex wife and I had unlimited time training her, for the first 12 months it was just me and her and it paid off.Best dog I have had.Once I learned to trust her she would go into any cover if it was occupied, if there was nothing in there she wouldn't enter that cover for love nor money,but if she said there was nothing there, there was nothing there.

[anser2]

I think you have made the right choice in getting a lab for wildfowling. As for an all round for rough shooting ,beating and wildfowling there are some good ones out there that will do this , but be warned wildfowling tends to make gundogs unsteady. We should of course keep our dogs under strict control , but in the real world this is not so easy and few wildfowling labs are very steady after a few years. If you have spent all week trying to get within range of a goose , finaly manage to get a shot only for it to fall winged 50 yards away across a big creek , in the darkness with a strong tide flowing and a howling gale , you want a dog that that goes at once for the retrieve. Every second is vital as the goose can easily be lost. Such experiances tend to produce brilliant game finding dogs , but not a dog that you are happy to take beating where strict control is very nessary. Perhaps the answer is to keep your spaniel for the rough shootng and beating days and the lab for the foreshore.

 

I used to have a very obediant handler trained lab that used to be happy to let my spaniel do all the hunting work while rough shooting and then be there on hand to do the retreving. While this lab was an ok wildfowling dog she lacked the flare that some of my less well trained dogs have had and by waiting to be told to retrieve a duck she wildfowling I lost a number of birds that the less obediant dogs would have got. My present black lab is a nightmare on a formal shoot , but give her a 2-300 yard retrieve across flooding creeks on a stormy night and she comes into her own and its very rare she ever comes back without the duck. A few years ago a mate had lost a goose and an hour later I came over and put my dog onto it she kept on finding the scent and then loseing it only to find it again. After aquarter of an hour we were ready to give up on it , but the dog had other idears. She ignored the recall whistle and kept working on the goose for a further 20 minuets and just as she was all but lost to sight 1\4 a mile off she turned , running back with the goose in her mouth.

 

I guess its horses for coarses , but Meg was part trained when I got her ( I got the part that was not trained ) and she is by far the hardest dog i have had to manage but she is very determined on any bird that is down. Which is not a bad thing for a wildfowling dog.

I used to have a golden retriever who could adjust her retrieving according to the type of shooting I was doing after a few stern words , she made a great peg dog and was a very good wildfowling dog , but I fear such dogs are not common.

Edited March 26, 2015 by anser2

[hedge hunter]

Thanks for your replys gents, yes i see what you mean about stediness, you need a dog to react in an instant to fallen game. Thanks for that anser2 i enjoyed reading about your dogs.

[TIDES EDGE]

After 12 years of having nothing but labs I have today gone back to a spaniel and collected a lovley 4 year old bitch for the very reason you started this thread my Labs are brilliant out on the estuary and for picking up but will not hunt out cover when beating , they will go in to retreive but wont work out a bank of brambles.

[muncher]

Thanks for your replys gents, yes i see what you mean about stediness, you need a dog to react in an instant to fallen game. Thanks for that anser2 i enjoyed reading about your dogs.

Sorry I don't agree at all ,I have a lot of respect for you anser2 but there is no need for a dog to run in it takes 1 second to say fetch, my brother and myself will often have 4 labs with us and not one will run in and we very rarely loose any birds on the marsh. then again i put a lot of effort in to training my dogs . I have had plenty of flights ruined by other fowlers dogs running about to every bloody shot ,for me its just an excuse for a badly or none trained dog.

Edited March 26, 2015 by muncher

[fenboy]

Sorry I don't agree at all ,I have a lot of respect for you anser2 but there is no need for a dog to run in it takes 1 second to say fetch, my brother and myself will often have 4 labs with us and not one will run in and we very rarely loose any birds on the marsh. then again i put a lot of effort in to training my dogs . I have had plenty of flights ruined by other fowlers dogs running about to every bloody shot ,for me its just an excuse for a badly or none trained dog.

 

Sorry it wont happen again

[widgeon man]

Glad you owned up fenboy............. Thought it was me for a while!

lol

[muncher]

No shandy the mud dog 🐶😊 not really got a soft spot for her and her.love for rotten seal

[Penelope]

Your brother's 4 dogs were outstanding in their steadiness, obedience and game finding abilities when Guy and I were out with him. An example to aim for.

 

Sorry I don't agree at all ,I have a lot of respect for you anser2 but there is no need for a dog to run in it takes 1 second to say fetch, my brother and myself will often have 4 labs with us and not one will run in and we very rarely loose any birds on the marsh. then again i put a lot of effort in to training my dogs . I have had plenty of flights ruined by other fowlers dogs running about to every bloody shot ,for me its just an excuse for a badly or none trained dog.

[fenboy]

To the OP .

You certainly are being sensible in considering the limitations of your cocker for work on the foreshore , two years ago I was in a similar situation and despite having a cracking cocker went out and brought a Lab.

 

Likewise you will need to consider the limitations of a Lab , they will like most dogs do what you train them to do up to a limit , I am sure there are some very good all round Labs but in general they are not going to go in dense cover like a Cocker will , horses for courses springs to mind.

[anser2]

Muncher of course you are right , but never the less almost every wildfowling dog I know runs in when a bird is shot after a few years. In my dogs case Its something I have never been able to control since I bought her part trained and beleve me I have tried. Its never been a serious problem though as most of the time I am the only gun on the marsh and if there is another gun I try and keep several hundred yards away from them. ( one of the features of my marsh is you can go for days and days and never hear another shot, and I have only once seen anyone else out of the first day of the season and never on the last. The shooting pressure is almost non existant). I do keep the dog on a lead at morning flight when the light is growing and when shooting a tide flight , but at evening flight its a different story and she does not run in to shot , only when a birds falls. But on the other hand she never chases ground game . She is also a great hunter in cover never worrying about thick brambles. her motto is " if a bird is in there I am going to find it no matter what". Meg will never make a peg dog , but she does what I want her to do and does it well and out of the several hundred retrieves she has had this season she has only l

 

. I used to have a full professional trained lab that could be trusted to sit until told to retrieve , it was great never having to tell her to heel or sit , she just did it without being told, but I did lose too many birds with her. She would be slow off the mark on wounded birds and never was happy searching beyond 50 yards away. she felt she was doing wrong being so far away from me. I would rather have a dog that uses her own brain when working than one that acts like a zombie waiting to be told everything.

 

We all aim with a new dog to have a steady , obediant , game finding dog for wildfowling and many of us spend many hours trying to get there , but in reality few of us acheave perfection.

[scotslad]

A lab will do want u want no problem, i've seen my labs go into cover that spaniels (to be fair poor spaniels) have refused. Was shooting on a spaniel training day and handler refused to send there spaniels into thick cover, i ended up walking it out as best piece of game holding cover about

Yes they won't hit cover till theitr face bleeds like a spaniel will, but if they think there birds in there or told wil certainly go into cover no matter how thick. Most of the beating lines and walk 1 stand 1 shoots round here are mainly labs in the line

 

I'd say u want a proper old fashioned working lab with a decent thick coat try and ask around local shoots or throu ur local wildfowling club. I would stay away from any of the more modern FT lines (snipey heads thin coats and thin tails) and stick with a more traditional built stocky, otter tails etc

 

 

Anser i woud say that's why the trainer got rid of ur old dog, prob no good for trialing too slow and no confidence at distance probably due to his training, (some of the modern trialling bred dogs can be like that need a ot of confidence and direction/handling, but been breed that way as some (usually new trainers) traillers prefer dogs that don't think for them selves too much)

Having a dog that sits an extra second until told to go will not make u lose extra birds

[muncher]

As above you never train a lab to heal untill training is done as the dog won't range and be a zombie like you said Robert that is a training issue , yes a dog with a brain and using its head is what we want as wildfowlers' and evening flight is when they have to use there own senses ,I've shot with some peoples dogs that are keen and go straight off and are good dogs but a bit of steadiness for me is for me important as if you shoot 2 birds one wounded one dead you can decide which one to put the dog on

[hedge hunter]

Thanks for all your reply guys i really appritiate it, has given me lots of food for thought. Cheers hh

[scotslad]

Each to there own muncher but i train any dog/breed to heel as 1 of the first things i do, if a dog never learns to pull on the lead it doesnae know any better, will start any dog walking on a lead almost as soon as i get them. But i know a lot of folk (esp spaniel trialers) won't agree with that

In the old breaking days i can see whybreaking a dog to heel would affect its hunting but not using modern positive reward techniques, esp when dog is so young.

 

Ask around locally, most proper fowling dogs tend to be more old fashioned built/bred, just stay clear of a lot of FTCH's in recent pedigree (althou there is some FT kennels/lines still breeding real proper labs, generally the more older established kennels)

Getting a dog to enter cover is more about training/conditioning,if it enters cover and always gets a reward/retrieve/flush etc and if it has a proper lab coat will help massively as won't fel the thorns etc

[muncher]

Yes as you say each to there own I don't use a lead I find if you take them out as a pup and get there trust and the reward is freedom I do chase them down if need be to come when I call ,now I have had and trained spaniels now they are a different beast all together .

[motty]

Each to there own muncher but i train any dog/breed to heel as 1 of the first things i do, if a dog never learns to pull on the lead it doesnae know any better, will start any dog walking on a lead almost as soon as i get them. But i know a lot of folk (esp spaniel trialers) won't agree with that

In the old breaking days i can see whybreaking a dog to heel would affect its hunting but not using modern positive reward techniques, esp when dog is so young.

 

Ask around locally, most proper fowling dogs tend to be more old fashioned built/bred, just stay clear of a lot of FTCH's in recent pedigree (althou there is some FT kennels/lines still breeding real proper labs, generally the more older established kennels)

Getting a dog to enter cover is more about training/conditioning,if it enters cover and always gets a reward/retrieve/flush etc and if it has a proper lab coat will help massively as won't fel the thorns etc

May I ask why?

[scotslad]

Only my opinion but a lot of more modern lab FT lines tend to be those skinny fast things that look like whppet crosses, i have seen some 'modern' labs tip toeing throu fields of thistles to get a retrieve as their coats are so thin and shivering while sitting on a peg in winter. Think its where some folk get the idea lab's won't enter cover as i have seen some back away from it.

 

Not saying all FT lines are like that, i know a few older trainers who still run 'proper' labs and do very well with them.

But i would not put to much emphisis on FT for a beaing line/rough shooting or wildfowling dog. Best if u can see a dog working first u like the look off and ask the owners who breed it or are they having pups.

It's the whole problem when u start judging dogs for looks and style over substance

[kent]

Its easy to make any dog unsteady, you just send it on everything no matter how much training you put in and it will become unsteady. Now some wildfowlers who shoot the tide have no option they can very rarely pick a bird themselves unless it falls in their lap- don't laugh it happens and can hurt! so its Quack, bang, splash, fetch- do that for a season and I bet your dog don't stay too steady! Some who shoot a few flashes, flight geese coming of the sand towards crops over the dry marsh etc. can even wait for the flight to end before gathering the slain this is very different and far easier to keep your dog steady. Its well known to all who train that you always pick some yourself dummies in training or game in the field to prevent running in occuring

 

I do concur about the coat and build thing a mate the other week was saying Chesapeake for his next as he has spanners at present and they feel the cold and wet and honestly thought all labs did off the ones he had seen, a proper lab coat is so thick with oily top hairs and a dense undercoat that to use the likes of spot on treatment finding the skin is darn near impossible. My own dog has this and never ever have I seen him shiver (people say oh it gets exited) rubbish mine gets exited to the extent he needs a good run and swim pre-flight but shivering is because your dog is cold. Trailers and pickers up don't really nee this and have started breeding dogs with a mind to speed, handling and generally flashyness- not that they want to create a sub breed within a breed it just happens along the way, same with show dogs with their Porkers! My lab is however sired by a top FTCH so there are exceptions his coat is so thick and dense its untrue

 

The difference in cover is a spaniel will go into cover because there might be something there a Lab will go into cover because he knows there is something in there. To explain that fully though a Lab relies more on air scenting than the shorter breeds labs and retrievers don't just bump into game while searching the ground at a lower level ground based scent. They will however put their nose down and track foot scent, this is the Retriever / spaniel main difference when I occasionally hunt my lab he will put his nose down because he is a retriever looking for the quickest route to the aim (contradictory as it is to walked up sport) You don't want your spaniel doing that! If your experienced lab wont go in cover he has never been trained into it or there aint nothing in it! Got to be honest and say he loves to hunt but wildfowling is quite contradictory to the requirements of a shoe shining spaniel in the white grass. 200 yards retrieves? easy any good retriever should double that or more thing is a wildfowlers dog will become a bit self employed so just send them and trust them in the main, overhanding means you will pick less (you see you cant see the things in the dark so having some dumb dog look to you for help aint gonna gather much game on a dark winter marsh)

 

Sure if FT were run on a dark winter marsh the winners might not be the usual suspects but they aren't FTCH says to a wildfowler the parent in question is KC registered has not shown hard mouth, will likely not give tounge and is handleable and will enter water (well on a nice day without a vast flow pushing through )

[anser2]

Good to see you posting again in the forum Kent.

[hedge hunter]

Thanks for your reply. I enjoyed reading that then kent, cheers hh

[Fal]

Some labs will enter cover searching with no issues, but they aren't designed for this job and some of them you may never ever get to enter cover, I think if you have a lab prepared to thrash through the undergrowth it's more luck that you have a crazy lab. If you can afford it, if you are doing two different types of shooting, try to go for two dogs.

 

I have trained my lab to heal, be steady, not to hunt of his own back and not to run in. They are the basics in my eyes that all gun dogs should have. Running in is a massive pet hate of mine, I have spent years training my dog not to run in, and only go when I tell him, then I shoot a bird and somebody else’s dog is on it. Really grinds my gears, and people think it is acceptable, I see the point about not wanting to lose time with a bird that has fallen into the tide etc but it takes a second to send a dog rather than allow it to run in.

Even sending the dog when the bird is still falling is better than it running in. An even bigger pet hate is when people miss a bird and their dog is up on the marsh hunting for the bird and it's not even there, in full view of all the birds, the owner screaming at them, in turn ruining the flight, again caused by running in.

 

If you can afford it, two dogs would be the only option. A beating type dog for rough shooting, a calm placid dog for fowling. I am getting a spaniel for this reason, I have trained my lab to be steady, heal at all times, I cannot expect it and will not teach it to hunt off its own back. It would just un-do all my hard work, labs are not designed to be hitting hard cover, it's not in them, and they are the wrong shape, size and temperament. I would never buy a lab with the view of making a beating dog out of it.

 

They are just my views, wrong or right that's what I think. People will have differing views, and that's why I love this forum!! Good luck with whatever you decide to do though!

 

[scotslad]

Weell said kent. Fal ur quite riight about being steady but being steady and not hunting are not the same thing. It is possibe to have a steady obediant dog that still hunts hard when it's allowed

 

There is asolutely no reason why u would need 2 dogs.

 

I've never understood this lab won't enter cover stuff. yes most won't rush into cover till there face bleeds but if there is scent in there or told to get in they will

Wot's the point in having a dog if it won't enter cover ? (and i've shot on a couple of spaniel days where ownwers refused to send there spamiels into cover as too thick )

Surely if a lab is going to retrieve ur game it needs to enter cover if ur game falls there? Plenty off shoots will drive woods in such a way that the picking up dogs will have to work a wood that can alo be driven, so really no difference the dogs still need to enter cover

 

Any decent working bred lab WILL enter cover no probs with the right training and can be steady if trained right.

[Fal]

Weell said kent. Fal ur quite riight about being steady but being steady and not hunting are not the same thing. It is possibe to have a steady obediant dog that still hunts hard when it's allowed

 

There is asolutely no reason why u would need 2 dogs.

 

I've never understood this lab won't enter cover stuff. yes most won't rush into cover till there face bleeds but if there is scent in there or told to get in they will

Wot's the point in having a dog if it won't enter cover ? (and i've shot on a couple of spaniel days where ownwers refused to send there spamiels into cover as too thick )

Surely if a lab is going to retrieve ur game it needs to enter cover if ur game falls there? Plenty off shoots will drive woods in such a way that the picking up dogs will have to work a wood that can alo be driven, so really no difference the dogs still need to enter cover

 

Any decent working bred lab WILL enter cover no probs with the right training and can be steady if trained right.

 

My point about my lab not hunting off his own back is something I don't want my dog doing. I have seen labs hunt, and I have seen them refuse to enter any type of cover, even to retrieve a bird, but then again I have seen spaniels point black refusing to enter even brambles but that's mostly down to bad training. I don't disagree with some people not being ok with sending their dogs into certain cover, I wouldn't send my dog into hawthorn etc which some people who don't own dogs think and expect people to send their dogs into for them. They should buy their own dog and be prepared to have its eye out, they can pick up bill and risk injuring their dog.

 

It's all down to what you want your dog to do, my lab will enter cover to retrieve and if I send him in, but I don't want him to be hunting like a spaniel I haven't trained him to do it and will not be, therefore the only way around this is to have another dog trained to do different tasks. I can assure you that owning either dog, a spaniel or a lab, does not guarantee you a dog that will do all you want it to. We up our chances of having a dog that will enter cover if it is from proven working lines, but it's still not a guarantee. A lot of dogs get ruined by bad training methods, or starting them too early. I am almost certain that a spaniel that will not enter cover is training related rather than down to the dog. If I was going to buy one dog, that I wanted as an all rounder, I would pick a spaniel no way I would pick a Lab to take beating etc I disagree that any decent working bred lab will enter cover, even with the right training. I've seen it with my own eyes.

 

I've never seen a well bred spaniel with the right training refuse to enter any cover, ever! Just my views!

 

ATB