Jump to content

lab question ???


hedge hunter
 Share

Recommended Posts

Weell said kent. Fal ur quite riight about being steady but being steady and not hunting are not the same thing. It is possibe to have a steady obediant dog that still hunts hard when it's allowed

 

There is asolutely no reason why u would need 2 dogs.

 

I've never understood this lab won't enter cover stuff. yes most won't rush into cover till there face bleeds but if there is scent in there or told to get in they will

Wot's the point in having a dog if it won't enter cover ? (and i've shot on a couple of spaniel days where ownwers refused to send there spamiels into cover as too thick :hmm: )

Surely if a lab is going to retrieve ur game it needs to enter cover if ur game falls there? Plenty off shoots will drive woods in such a way that the picking up dogs will have to work a wood that can alo be driven, so really no difference the dogs still need to enter cover

 

Any decent working bred lab WILL enter cover no probs with the right training and can be steady if trained right.

 

I think there is a mis understanding. I don't think hunting makes a retriever unsteady, they just tend to be keen on taking a straight line to the quarry when they find foot scent (shot or un-shot)- if you can keep up you might even get a shot :lol: Other than that its an over use of the stop whistle and trying on your patience with a keen one :rolleyes:

 

Its very possible to train all sorts of dogs to do things they were never bred to do though :good:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 62
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

U must off seen some completely different labs to me fal.

 

I generally do a fair bit of beating or picking up, usually 40ish days a season but a few season's has been up pushing 100. Most of the labs i have seen have not been to bad at entering cover (in fact quite a few are as wild as any spaniel) and most of the shoots up here's beating lines are predomiately labs. When ur on a beating line u never normally get the chance to work a spaniel in the proper fashion anyway

The only labs that i've seen that i would have no kennel space for tend to be very heavily modern FT bred and look like whippet crosses, have seen them tip toeing round thistles on the way out to a retrieve. Nae good to man nor beast that.

My dogs get sent into wot ever cover is needed, thorn, whin, brair, (only thing i refuse is icy rivers/ponds) if ur getting paid to flush or retrieve the birds u should send ur dog into anything. Touch wood never had any injuries or seen many, most injuries u see are fence related

 

This is going to sound silly but a lot of the local working labs are still quite local lines and there used to be 2 local estates/keepers that had very stocky lines 30 years ago, 1 of the lines was locally famous/infamous for there ability to take deer on the old deer drives. And the local FT trainers are still pretty old school and still breeding bigger dogs so even the better bred local FT dogs tend to be proper labs

 

I have labs a springer and a HPR in the kennels the now and all have different pro's and con's (but apart from my hpr) all pretty much do the same job and i train them the same way wether lab or spaniel. I'm as happy walking up rough shooting over my labs as i am my springer and usually have them all out together anyway.

 

All horses for courses and as long as ur dogs do wot u want them to do that's fine.

But labs do hunt fine for rough shooting, will never be a spaniel but do a good enough job with the right training whereas no ammount of training will ever train a spainel not to be cold on the foreshore, yes jackets etc help but still has not got the same double coat and far harder to dry after a flight too

Link to comment
Share on other sites

U must off seen some completely different labs to me fal.

 

I generally do a fair bit of beating or picking up, usually 40ish days a season but a few season's has been up pushing 100. Most of the labs i have seen have not been to bad at entering cover (in fact quite a few are as wild as any spaniel) and most of the shoots up here's beating lines are predomiately labs. When ur on a beating line u never normally get the chance to work a spaniel in the proper fashion anyway

The only labs that i've seen that i would have no kennel space for tend to be very heavily modern FT bred and look like whippet crosses, have seen them tip toeing round thistles on the way out to a retrieve. Nae good to man nor beast that.

My dogs get sent into wot ever cover is needed, thorn, whin, brair, (only thing i refuse is icy rivers/ponds) if ur getting paid to flush or retrieve the birds u should send ur dog into anything. Touch wood never had any injuries or seen many, most injuries u see are fence related

 

This is going to sound silly but a lot of the local working labs are still quite local lines and there used to be 2 local estates/keepers that had very stocky lines 30 years ago, 1 of the lines was locally famous/infamous for there ability to take deer on the old deer drives. And the local FT trainers are still pretty old school and still breeding bigger dogs so even the better bred local FT dogs tend to be proper labs

 

I have labs a springer and a HPR in the kennels the now and all have different pro's and con's (but apart from my hpr) all pretty much do the same job and i train them the same way wether lab or spaniel. I'm as happy walking up rough shooting over my labs as i am my springer and usually have them all out together anyway.

 

All horses for courses and as long as ur dogs do wot u want them to do that's fine.

But labs do hunt fine for rough shooting, will never be a spaniel but do a good enough job with the right training whereas no ammount of training will ever train a spainel not to be cold on the foreshore, yes jackets etc help but still has not got the same double coat and far harder to dry after a flight too

 

 

Brilliant post mate, enjoyed that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think the Scots breed a better shooting man Lab viewed in general terms and about the Top Deer dogs of any breed in the UK. Those Scots dogs do have to contend with a lot of prickly things that for sure ( I can't see why the Kilt was ever thought to be a good idea up there :lol: ) Its hard to say my dog will do this others wont do this but often you need to read between the lines Like "my dog gets exited" not "Dogs blooming cold"

My own Lab will certainly enter any cover and has been down the vets a few times from Blackthorn wild rose etc. I seriously think its cant get through his main coat but the ears have seen numerous rips and I do fear for his eyes but its part of his job and I doubt if asked he should have it another way! (there are dog mesh glasses available on line BTW ) A pheasant or woodcock hidden in the thickest just has to be flushed and if it happens its in too thick it will get carried back to me without a shot fired :rolleyes: have I asked him to go in sometimes not, will I tell him to get in sometimes yes but I get this funny look like "you sure?" if he knows nothing is too be had, its never to do with how thick or thorny it is. (actually I have seen him walk over cover brambles to thick for anything to get in )On a February moon flight when all is white and there is a stiff wind blowing across the marsh that you feel cold inside your neoprene you have to hand it to the dogs when they swim the creeks on and off and enter with such enthusiasm to gather a downed bird

Edited by kent
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think the Scots breed a better shooting man Lab viewed in general terms and about the Top Deer dogs of any breed in the UK. Those Scots dogs do have to contend with a lot of prickly things that for sure ( I can't see why the Kilt was ever thought to be a good idea up there :lol: ) Its hard to say my dog will do this others wont do this but often you need to read between the lines Like "my dog gets exited" not "Dogs blooming cold"

My own Lab will certainly enter any cover and has been down the vets a few times from Blackthorn wild rose etc. I seriously think its cant get through his main coat but the ears have seen numerous rips and I do fear for his eyes but its part of his job and I doubt if asked he should have it another way! (there are dog mesh glasses available on line BTW ) A pheasant or woodcock hidden in the thickest just has to be flushed and if it happens its in too thick it will get carried back to me without a shot fired :rolleyes: have I asked him to go in sometimes not, will I tell him to get in sometimes yes but I get this funny look like "you sure?" if he knows nothing is too be had, its never to do with how thick or thorny it is. (actually I have seen him walk over cover brambles to thick for anything to get in )On a February moon flight when all is white and there is a stiff wind blowing across the marsh that you feel cold inside your neoprene you have to hand it to the dogs when they swim the creeks on and off and enter with such enthusiasm to gather a downed bird

 

 

Another great read Kent. A silly question but have you any pics of your dog, just for comparison. As i honestly couldnt see the dogs who pick up on our shoot doing a season on the marsh...... sleek light footed grayhoundy things !!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Al that Newfoundland type blood of old.

 

I had one like that loved the marsh and was very good too they are a lot better a dealing with cold than a spaniel a good coat helps but that's not all its the breed copes with cold well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another great read Kent. A silly question but have you any pics of your dog, just for comparison. As i honestly couldnt see the dogs who pick up on our shoot doing a season on the marsh...... sleek light footed grayhoundy things !!!

 

I shall have a go at posting some here ( I am a total computer luddite though)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Best bet is to train your dog in situations where you plan to work them. I work a cocker and a lab and both are first class Wildfowling dogs. My dogs were trained from pups, on the foreshore in tidal water and mud, which builds up there stamina and muscles. I also trained them at my local reservoir, jumping from the boats and jetties to retrieve dummies. This prepared them to be comfortable when travelling in and jumping from the boat when out Wildfowling in tidal water or mud.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best bet is to train your dog in situations where you plan to work them. I work a cocker and a lab and both are first class Wildfowling dogs. My dogs were trained from pups, on the foreshore in tidal water and mud, which builds up there stamina and muscles. I also trained them at my local reservoir, jumping from the boats and jetties to retrieve dummies. This prepared them to be comfortable when travelling in and jumping from the boat when out Wildfowling in tidal water or mud.

 

A cocker is such an odd ball choice fowling dog, what can it do on the marsh that the lab cannot? Or is it a rough shooting dog that also comes along? Not having a go just wondering your thoughts, please don't say it can carry Greys and Canadas across the marsh . I see some use them in the states for duck from canoes as a big old lab might turn you right over with an enthusiastic leap in

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its easy to make any dog unsteady, you just send it on everything no matter how much training you put in and it will become unsteady. Now some wildfowlers who shoot the tide have no option they can very rarely pick a bird themselves unless it falls in their lap- don't laugh it happens and can hurt! so its Quack, bang, splash, fetch- do that for a season and I bet your dog don't stay too steady! Some who shoot a few flashes, flight geese coming of the sand towards crops over the dry marsh etc. can even wait for the flight to end before gathering the slain this is very different and far easier to keep your dog steady. Its well known to all who train that you always pick some yourself dummies in training or game in the field to prevent running in occuring

 

I do concur about the coat and build thing a mate the other week was saying Chesapeake for his next as he has spanners at present and they feel the cold and wet and honestly thought all labs did off the ones he had seen, a proper lab coat is so thick with oily top hairs and a dense undercoat that to use the likes of spot on treatment finding the skin is darn near impossible. My own dog has this and never ever have I seen him shiver (people say oh it gets exited) rubbish mine gets exited to the extent he needs a good run and swim pre-flight but shivering is because your dog is cold. Trailers and pickers up don't really nee this and have started breeding dogs with a mind to speed, handling and generally flashyness- not that they want to create a sub breed within a breed it just happens along the way, same with show dogs with their Porkers! My lab is however sired by a top FTCH so there are exceptions his coat is so thick and dense its untrue

 

The difference in cover is a spaniel will go into cover because there might be something there a Lab will go into cover because he knows there is something in there. To explain that fully though a Lab relies more on air scenting than the shorter breeds labs and retrievers don't just bump into game while searching the ground at a lower level ground based scent. They will however put their nose down and track foot scent, this is the Retriever / spaniel main difference when I occasionally hunt my lab he will put his nose down because he is a retriever looking for the quickest route to the aim (contradictory as it is to walked up sport) You don't want your spaniel doing that! If your experienced lab wont go in cover he has never been trained into it or there aint nothing in it! Got to be honest and say he loves to hunt but wildfowling is quite contradictory to the requirements of a shoe shining spaniel in the white grass. 200 yards retrieves? easy any good retriever should double that or more thing is a wildfowlers dog will become a bit self employed so just send them and trust them in the main, overhanding means you will pick less (you see you cant see the things in the dark so having some dumb dog look to you for help aint gonna gather much game on a dark winter marsh)

 

Sure if FT were run on a dark winter marsh the winners might not be the usual suspects but they aren't FTCH says to a wildfowler the parent in question is KC registered has not shown hard mouth, will likely not give tounge and is handleable and will enter water (well on a nice day without a vast flow pushing through :rolleyes: )

 

Why don't we hassle BASC and Kennel Club to run real trials on the shore in winter at dawn and dusk to find real retriever champions ?? I am going to email BASC and the KC and see what they say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I went to see the Essex Joint Council of Wildfowlers gundog test yesterday. Run over the saltings and all real fowling dogs present.

 

 

Why don't we hassle BASC and Kennel Club to run real trials on the shore in winter at dawn and dusk to find real retriever champions ?? I am going to email BASC and the KC and see what they say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Why don't we hassle BASC and Kennel Club to run real trials on the shore in winter at dawn and dusk to find real retriever champions ?? I am going to email BASC and the KC and see what they say.

 

Because how can you judge sitting still in a muddy hole for 4 hrs in the cold of mid winter or the run or swim out to retrieves in the dark, when you only see the dog when its at your feet?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Because how can you judge sitting still in a muddy hole for 4 hrs in the cold of mid winter or the run or swim out to retrieves in the dark, when you only see the dog when its at your feet?

 

Sitting silently in a muddy hole for 4hours in the cold in mid winter would weed out the ones with poor coats and the whining ones.

Retrieves could be done on the mud or across creeks and gutters with a strong tide and would be a far better trial than some of the current retriever trials you see where they put up pheasants out of a game crop and shoot them as they get up .

If wildfowling retreiver tests / trials or working certificates (call them what you want) were set up / created on the shore and were relevant, I know I would want a pup from proven parents that had been successful at this type of test than one from the current FTCH which is based around the game shooting scene .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The handlers would look a bit silly waving their white hankies on the foreshore to direct the dog.

 

But I do believe in horses for courses, and some great field trial dogs about it's all about what they have been trained to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't actually see it being about "all about what they have been trained to do" (only partly at best). Thin fast poorly coated dogs of untested patience and untested in real water work and the all important initiative if used as breeding stock (unproven on the marshes in the real world) will always be chuck it and chance it.

I have also heard it said by some top Retriever guys that handling often takes precedence over nose and nobody wants a trial dog that goes self employed when sent (but this is exactly what is required on a dark winter marsh). That said some fowlers cannot handle their dogs much at all when required and I fully accept this is also a big handicap.

 

We will never have a real life Trial for fowling dogs and the best stock is perhaps better selected within our rank were ever possible. Tests during daylight hours with dummies is about as good as it will ever get and that is never going to be much

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't actually see it being about "all about what they have been trained to do" (only partly at best). Thin fast poorly coated dogs of untested patience and untested in real water work and the all important initiative if used as breeding stock (unproven on the marshes in the real world) will always be chuck it and chance it.

I have also heard it said by some top Retriever guys that handling often takes precedence over nose and nobody wants a trial dog that goes self employed when sent (but this is exactly what is required on a dark winter marsh). That said some fowlers cannot handle their dogs much at all when required and I fully accept this is also a big handicap.

 

We will never have a real life Trial for fowling dogs and the best stock is perhaps better selected within our rank were ever possible. Tests during daylight hours with dummies is about as good as it will ever get and that is never going to be much

It's just as well that most people seem to get by with some of the brilliant dogs that have come from current FT lines. I don't think there is much wrong with the retrievers that are available, whether they have had 'trials' on the marsh or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...