Jump to content

lab question ???


hedge hunter
 Share

Recommended Posts

I don't actually see it being about "all about what they have been trained to do" (only partly at best). Thin fast poorly coated dogs of untested patience and untested in real water work and the all important initiative if used as breeding stock (unproven on the marshes in the real world) will always be chuck it and chance it.

I have also heard it said by some top Retriever guys that handling often takes precedence over nose and nobody wants a trial dog that goes self employed when sent (but this is exactly what is required on a dark winter marsh). That said some fowlers cannot handle their dogs much at all when required and I fully accept this is also a big handicap.

 

We will never have a real life Trial for fowling dogs and the best stock is perhaps better selected within our rank were ever possible. Tests during daylight hours with dummies is about as good as it will ever get and that is never going to be much

Have shot on live quarry field trials, so how's that chucking a dummy. Yes it is ALL about what they are trained to do, sniff out drugs, fetch phone, not run in, would think your dog does not do the first two, possibly because it's not been trained too. field trials give a standard that's all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 62
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

It's just as well that most people seem to get by with some of the brilliant dogs that have come from current FT lines. I don't think there is much wrong with the retrievers that are available, whether they have had 'trials' on the marsh or not.

Don't get me wrong the sire of mine was in the top three twice on the trot and he came from perhaps the best known Lab family ever. I had this chat with a Fowling mate the other week who is wanting one but pretty much thought the same as me (thin coats, skinny bodies and untested in hard conditions) Its still a pig in a poke, the way it was put to me was what you know about a FTCH is it will be soft mouthed and will enter water and is quiet but most of all its had a good trainer handler. Different people shooting different marshes with different requirements

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have shot on live quarry field trials, so how's that chucking a dummy. Yes it is ALL about what they are trained to do, sniff out drugs, fetch phone, not run in, would think your dog does not do the first two, possibly because it's not been trained too. field trials give a standard that's all.

Did you read what you quoted? The only relevant bit related to TESTS which are nearly always carried out with dummies

My point is FT are carried out under conditions that are very rarely encountered by a wildfowler. Running in is actually thought of as a good thing with some fowlers I shoot with and I must admit I am sort of in two minds about it myself having seen both the up and downside of that behaviour (very bad thing in a trail or game day mind you)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest problem u have with FT, tests or even scurries nowadays is some folk want to win them and dinae see them as a bit of fun and will train there dog spcefically for those circumstances and dog become more speciailised purely for the 'competion'.

Even if u devise a test that is fair for wilfowling dogs u'd be amazed how quickly someone would train there dogs to do it as a hobby without actually fowling

 

Even for a 'normal' working lab modern FT's are so far removed and dogs trained to such a high standard there is very little benefit to ur average shooting man, and worse than that dogs are now being breed with FT first in there mind so u get these fast skinny things with poor coats, which are no good for normal shooting anyway as dinae like cover. No good to man nor beast really

 

Dunno wots wrong with the old fashioned way of picking/breeding dogs, ie word of mouth, 'i hear old jimmy has a good dog' having a quick look at it and using ur own judgement/eye and not relying on tickets and awards, more old fashioned stocksmanship, back in the day u did not have all the diseases u have now (hips/eyes) as any that were would be PTS and most of there litter mates would not be bred from. It's using the same stud dogs and breeding of very poor bitches is dong gundogs no favours

No/little money involved so why breed of poor stock

 

Another of my major gripes now is that a FTCH dog has never meant it is the best breed/genitically even out of the same litter but the best trained but the stanard of training is now so far advanged and away from ur average man, some of these top trainers can make average dogs look amazing, which does not mean it is the best dog to beed from, yet in the old days u would make allowances poor owners/trainers, sometimes a litter mate would be far poorer trained even a wlld dog but had more natural ability so be better for breeding off

Edited by scotslad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You speak a lot of sense Scotslad.

 

For me some FTCH in the pedigree show the dog should have some "trainability" that is all , it does not tell me the dog is going to make an outstanding worker or be up to several seasons on the foreshore.

 

I like you like a Lab that looks like a Lab , though my new pup is perhaps a bit sleeker than my other dog he still has a proper double coat and his parents were both well built thick coated dogs.

Edited by fenboy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In theory it shoud never have been easier than now to breed decent working/fowling dogs with the internet and forums like this BUT the biggest problem is to many people cannae ***** there dogs and think the sun shines out of there behind.

 

If only there was some way to test them??? :whistling::)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest problem u have with FT, tests or even scurries nowadays is some folk want to win them and dinae see them as a bit of fun and will train there dog spcefically for those circumstances and dog become more speciailised purely for the 'competion'.

Even if u devise a test that is fair for wilfowling dogs u'd be amazed how quickly someone would train there dogs to do it as a hobby without actually fowling

 

Even for a 'normal' working lab modern FT's are so far removed and dogs trained to such a high standard there is very little benefit to ur average shooting man, and worse than that dogs are now being breed with FT first in there mind so u get these fast skinny things with poor coats, which are no good for normal shooting anyway as dinae like cover. No good to man nor beast really

 

Dunno wots wrong with the old fashioned way of picking/breeding dogs, ie word of mouth, 'i hear old jimmy has a good dog' having a quick look at it and using ur own judgement/eye and not relying on tickets and awards, more old fashioned stocksmanship, back in the day u did not have all the diseases u have now (hips/eyes) as any that were would be PTS and most of there litter mates would not be bred from. It's using the same stud dogs and breeding of very poor bitches is dong gundogs no favours

No/little money involved so why breed of poor stock

 

Another of my major gripes now is that a FTCH dog has never meant it is the best breed/genitically even out of the same litter but the best trained but the stanard of training is now so far advanged and away from ur average man, some of these top trainers can make average dogs look amazing, which does not mean it is the best dog to beed from, yet in the old days u would make allowances poor owners/trainers, sometimes a litter mate would be far poorer trained even a wlld dog but had more natural ability so be better for breeding off

Totally crack on!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

talking about labs how important do people think hip and eye scores are when looking at a pup, you see lots of litters where they are not scored, would that put you off buying?

 

Yes it would put me off , it is very important to me , you do not want to invest time and money into a pup only to have to have it PTS due to poor hips or eyes , and that is without the emotional side of things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would not put me off buying, but depends on how well u know the dog/owners and there reasons for breeding.

 

I bred of my old lab with only eyes done, some will think its wrong but he had probably worked easily 400+ days by the time i bred him, he's stil working now at gone 10 althou a bit slower but he will be out on the grouse come the 13th again.

 

If i was buying of a complete stranger i might insist on it but not from know lines/people i know. U see a lot of working bred dogs with little health tests done but sally owners just wanting the 1 pup of the litter for themselves.

 

Think the local labs round me must be different to wot is elsewhere as most are still very old fashioned looking, enter cover and generally un health tested yet never hear of bad hips or eyes being a problem

Link to comment
Share on other sites

talking about labs how important do people think hip and eye scores are when looking at a pup, you see lots of litters where they are not scored, would that put you off buying?

I wouldn't buy. Reasoning is firstly how much thought and planning went into things (obviously very little) secondly there are other scored and genetically tested bred available. Lastly it might not show till after you did all the training and got very attached to your dog.

I know a fella right now who has a good lab of young age well trained and shown potential but with hips that are falling in bits, family very attached to it and his current dog past it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would not put me off buying, but depends on how well u know the dog/owners and there reasons for breeding.

 

I bred of my old lab with only eyes done, some will think its wrong but he had probably worked easily 400+ days by the time i bred him, he's stil working now at gone 10 althou a bit slower but he will be out on the grouse come the 13th again.

 

If i was buying of a complete stranger i might insist on it but not from know lines/people i know. U see a lot of working bred dogs with little health tests done but sally owners just wanting the 1 pup of the litter for themselves.

 

Think the local labs round me must be different to wot is elsewhere as most are still very old fashioned looking, enter cover and generally un health tested yet never hear of bad hips or eyes being a problem

Its possible, its like Farm bred sheepdogs here. Many haven't even had std inoculations let alone boosters and i doubt much rubbish gets bred. Gundogs certainly here in England? health checks essential IMO.

I shouldn't imagine puppy farming is very popular in areas were half a days drive is involved to collect

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...