Temporary SG Certificate

[shalfordninja33]

Hello Everyone,

 

I received my renewal documentation, completed it sent it back 3 days afterwards on 16th Feb. Yesterday a received a temporary certificate through the post, my SGC runs out on 3rd May and I hadn't requested a temporary as I still have over a month to run on the current cert.

 

I haven't been contacted about a home visit or anything as yet, the temporary certificate is valid for 6 months, I assume I've been sent one as they're running behind and will get to me in due course.

 

I have two questions, the first concerns buying ammunition, can I still purchase it with a temp certificate or should I stock up before my current ticket runs out in may?

 

The second is acquiring a shotgun, I'm due to inherit one in the coming weeks but I assume I cant do this with the termp certificate or on my current one as it will be an additional that wont have been on my renewal paperwork?

 

If the temporary is valid until August would I have the put the inherited gun into RFC storage until my renewal is complete?

 

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[CharlieT]

Only if you have your current certificate in your possession, as the new acquisition will have to be entered on it.

 

Although you can continue to use your shotgun until your certificate expires, a Temp Cert only permits you to possess not to use your firearm.

 

If you have sent your certificate to the police you may wish to ask them to return it so that you can add your new acquisition to it and stock up on ammo.

[bostonmick]

Not sure on the above as a temporary certificate is not a section 7. It was always my understanding that you could do all the things your standard certificate allowed.

[CharlieT]

Not sure on the above as a temporary certificate is not a section 7. It was always my understanding that you could do all the things your standard certificate allowed.

 

And there is me thinking that the reason the police are permitted to issue a permit, colloquially refered to as a temporary certificate, is because of section 7 of the firearms act.

 

7Police permit.

 

(1)A person who has obtained from the chief officer of police for the area in which he resides a permit for the purpose in the prescribed form may, without holding a certificate under this Act, have in his possession a firearm and ammunition in accordance with the terms of the permit.

[shalfordninja33]

Only if you have your current certificate in your possession, as the new acquisition will have to be entered on it.

 

Although you can continue to use your shotgun until your certificate expires, a Temp Cert only permits you to possess not to use your firearm.

 

If you have sent your certificate to the police you may wish to ask them to return it so that you can add your new acquisition to it and stock up on ammo.

I was instructed to supply a photocopy of my current certificate with the renewal and keep the original. I was reluctant to put the new acquisition on as it won't be on the original renewal paperwork and don't know whether or not it would cause an issue during the house visit?

 

I stock up on ammo prior the current certificate running out.

 

Not sure on the above as a temporary certificate is not a section 7. It was always my understanding that you could do all the things your standard certificate allowed.

I spoke to Essesx firearms dept this afternoon and was told everyone renewing in Essex at the moment is being issued temporary certs as they're so far behind.

 

I was then told I can continue using my guns once the certificate runs out under the temporary cert, I just cant buy/sell any guns or purchase ammo until the new ticket is issued. I pushed them for a date on the renewal and they wouldn't give me one, other than say my temp ticket runs until August and hopefully it will be complete by then!

[Brodie]

Have just been reading up in "Sporting Shooting and the Law" by David Frost.

It states a temporary certificate is also known as a Section 7 permit - same thing.

Also says that a section 7 permit is a certificate for the purpose of purchasing shotgun ammunition.

I am inclined to trust David Frost's judgement, (he sits or sat on the APCO firearms panel), rather than someone from a police force who a while ago issued a letter saying it was legal to keep/possess guns without a certificate if your renewal was delayed - no mention then of temporary/section 7 permit being needed or issued.

I would welcome BASC's opinion on this as it seems to be getting more common for renewal delays.

[David BASC]

Section 7 Permits – Are you entitled to one? – The legalities

It is the certificate holder’s responsibility to renew their certificate on time and not rely on police reminders. The police do send out renewal reminders well in advance of expiry. However, backlogs can occur and are expected in 2015.

 

Each request for a temporary permit case must be determined on its merits but constabularies should issue them if delays have occurred in the system.

It is intended to cover temporary situations such as delays, or to allow short-term possession of firearms after the death of the certificated owner.

A permit may not be issued in order to authorise the purchase or acquisition of firearms or ammunition but shotgun ammunition can be purchased if you have a temporary permit.

 

The July 2014 Home Office Guidance says:

10.51 “If a certificate expires before a renewed certificate has been issued and the certificate holder has behaved in a reasonable manner returning the forms in good time, a temporary permit (section 7 Permit) should be issued by default. With regard to renewal, the applicant may submit a photocopy of their certificate and retain the expiring certificate in order to be able to buy ammunition.”

15.4. “Permits should be issued by chief officers where a certificate has not been re-issued or where a variation has been delayed and the applicant has made the application in good time. This may be appropriate where the renewal of a certificate is so delayed that the applicant may otherwise be left without permission to continue possessing and using their firearm and ammunition. This may not be the case where the applicant or his referees had been uncooperative and, is, or are, substantially responsible for the delay. In these circumstances, the applicant should be advised to arrange for the firearms and ammunition to be placed in storage with a registered firearms dealer or another suitably authorised certificate holder.”

BASC advice on obtaining a Section 7 temporary permit

BASC’s advice is that if your certificate is delayed by the administrative process you should always make a written request for a temporary permit. These are the things you need to do:

• Supply the date you submitted your renewal application and the date your certificate(s) expired.
• Request the immediate renewal of the certificates or the issue of a Section 7 permit to prevent you from possessing firearms without a valid certificate.
• Politely advise that if a Section 7 permit is not issued then you will be obliged to consider submitting a formal complaint.
• Request details of the complaints procedure.

Refusal to grant a Section 7 permit – Complaints

Any complaint against a refusal to issue a Section 7 permit should be made in writing. You should be able to find details on the force’s website. BASC can’t make the complaint for you but we will advise you how to do it. Making a justified complaint will also highlight areas where the police might improve their service.

[Scully]

Hello Everyone,

 

I received my renewal documentation, completed it sent it back 3 days afterwards on 16th Feb. Yesterday a received a temporary certificate through the post, my SGC runs out on 3rd May and I hadn't requested a temporary as I still have over a month to run on the current cert.

 

I haven't been contacted about a home visit or anything as yet, the temporary certificate is valid for 6 months, I assume I've been sent one as they're running behind and will get to me in due course.

 

I have two questions, the first concerns buying ammunition, can I still purchase it with a temp certificate or should I stock up before my current ticket runs out in may?

 

The second is acquiring a shotgun, I'm due to inherit one in the coming weeks but I assume I cant do this with the termp certificate or on my current one as it will be an additional that wont have been on my renewal paperwork?

 

If the temporary is valid until August would I have the put the inherited gun into RFC storage until my renewal is complete?

 

Thanks in advance for your replies.

If you still have your present valid certificate and the opportunity arises to buy the shotgun before it expires then buy it and simply inform licensing as you are obliged to do in the usual manner. Your letter informing them of your acquisition goes into your file and all the details will be entered on your new ticket when it is processed. It is standard procedure. The temporary permit changes nothing and is irrelevant to this issue and only comes into play if your current certificate expires before you receive your new one.

Keep it safe but ignore it until then.

[shalfordninja33]

Thanks for the advise guys, very helpful.

 

I'm going to crack on and collect my inheritance whist my current certificate is still valid and stock up on carts n the meantime.

 

Thanks again.

 

Matt

[Scully]

I'm pleased we've got that cleared up finally. I always thought a S7 permit and a temporary certificate were one and the same thing, but was informed in another thread they weren't, and not being one to argue ( ) let it go. Reading the above confirms that they are in fact one and the same thing.....I think. I even asked all my mates out of interest but none had ever heard of any other permit apart from a S7.

Thanks Charlie T and David Basc.

Now I know it doesn't entitle the possessor to buy ammunition but all we need to clear up now is if it entitles the possessor to use his firearms and shotguns. We have two conflicting bits of advice above gents unless I've read it wrong.

When I was given a S7 permit I received my new tickets back before the old one expired, but it's still a relevant question as I'd sent my current ticket in as part of the renewal process, unaware back then that it wasn't necessary, so the only proof I had of authorisation was the S7 permit.

[DaveyTed]

I think confusion occurs because of differences regarding temp permits for shotgun and firearms. As David quoted you can't use a temp cert to buy firearms ammunition but you can use it to buy shotgun cartridges.

 

I see from that the OP's response from Essex Police was wrong if he was told he could not buy shotgun cartridges on a temp. permit..

Edited March 26, 2015 by DaveyTed

[CharlieT]

I'm pleased we've got that cleared up finally. I always thought a S7 permit and a temporary certificate were one and the same thing, but was informed in another thread they weren't, and not being one to argue ( ) let it go. Reading the above confirms that they are in fact one and the same thing.....I think. I even asked all my mates out of interest but none had ever heard of any other permit apart from a S7.

Thanks Charlie T and David Basc.

Now I know it doesn't entitle the possessor to buy ammunition but all we need to clear up now is if it entitles the possessor to use his firearms and shotguns. We have two conflicting bits of advice above gents unless I've read it wrong.

When I was given a S7 permit I received my new tickets back before the old one expired, but it's still a relevant question as I'd sent my current ticket in as part of the renewal process, unaware back then that it wasn't necessary, so the only proof I had of authorisation was the S7 permit.

 

 

A permit (issued under S7) is a prescribed form and as such the wording on it is standard. Ones I have had in the past, and every one I have seen, have only authorised possession not use. It is my understanding, confirmed by my most helpful licensing manager, that they do not authorise use. Note the firearms act only states possession not use.

 

Most certainly they do not authorise the acquisition of S1 ammunition.

I can understand that they would allow the possessor to acquire shotgun cartridges as such cartridges are not controled or subject to certification, hence BASC stating that one can.

[Scully]

 

15.4. “Permits should be issued by chief officers where a certificate has not been re-issued or where a variation has been delayed and the applicant has made the application in good time. This may be appropriate where the renewal of a certificate is so delayed that the applicant may otherwise be left without permission to continue possessing and using their firearm and ammunition.

 

 

Thanks Charlie T, this is the part which is confusing me, as it appeared in Davids post above.

Does this not mean that a S7 permit allows the authorised holder to use their shotgun or rifle? I'm not trying to be deliberately pedantic, I am genuinely confused by this.

I continued to use mine when in possession of a S7 permit only. My FEO told me I couldn't buy ammo with it but never mentioned I wasn't allowed to use them.

[CharlieT]

Thanks Charlie T, this is the part which is confusing me, as it appeared in Davids post above.

Does this not mean that a S7 permit allows the authorised holder to use their shotgun or rifle? I'm not trying to be deliberately pedantic, I am genuinely confused by this.

I continued to use mine when in possession of a S7 permit only. My FEO told me I couldn't buy ammo with it but never mentioned I wasn't allowed to use them.

 

Ah, I'd missed that bit.

 

I rather think that David needs to confirm that particular advice is indeed correct.

[Scully]

 

Ah, I'd missed that bit.

 

I rather think that David needs to confirm that particular advice is indeed correct.

Fair enough, no problem. Will contact NGO also; see what they say.

Many thanks.

[David BASC]

Yes it alows posession and use

[Davyo]

If it has form 112 in the top right hand corner then it's what I got yesterday 'a permit issued under section 7 of the firearms act'

I was told that I could not have one issued until the licence actually expires( also confirmed by BASC).My SGC expired on 25/03/15 and was told that I can not have a S7 till 26/03/15( not even on the 25/03/15) Was phoned on the 26/03/15 and told I can now collect my S7.

What I'm confused by is why are different enforcement areas not singing from the same hym book?DURHAM & BASC both confirmed that a S7 will not and should not be issued until a licence actually expires.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Davyo

[Scully]

Yes it alows posession and use

Thankyou.

What I'm confused by is why are different enforcement areas not singing from the same hym book?DURHAM & BASC both confirmed that a S7 will not and should not be issued until a licence actually expires.

Your guess is as good as mine Davyo. I haven't found anything relating to S7 not being issued prior to a ticket expiry date ( but then again haven't looked too hard) but both mine and another on here had/have been issued well before expiry dates.

It is easy to get the impression that licensing authorities are allowed to more or less interpret administration as they see fit basically, only sticking to the letter of the law when it either suits or is impractical to do otherwise. It has been this way for years and without interference from either ourselves or our representative bodies, it seems it will always be thus. We only have ourselves to blame.

[compo90]

I think it highlights that both essex and durham are inept, but at least essex admit that and hence sending the op a s7 as they know they won't have his licence done in time.

[shalfordninja33]

I think it highlights that both essex and durham are inept, but at least essex admit that and hence sending the op a s7 as they know they won't have his licence done in time.

Indeed and whilst it must take more admin time to issue the S7, however I'm heartened by Essexs proactive steps in issuing the S7 instead of me having to chase for one as my renewal date gets near. It will be interesting to see how long the renewal process takes.

 

Yes it alows posession and use

Thank you for clarifying David. The responses and debate to my original question have made me feel much more comfortable with the situation.

Edited March 27, 2015 by shalfordninja33

[CharlieT]

Yes it alows posession and use

 

Thanks David.

[Brodie]

Can David(BASC) please confirm if shotgun cartridges can be purchased on a section 7 permit or is David Frost wrong in his book?

I know you cannot purchase firearms ammunition but there seems to be a difference between firearms and shotgun temp permit rules.

Given the long delays some renewals are taking this could be important to regular, high usage shooters.

Thanks

[compo90]

Can David(BASC) please confirm if shotgun cartridges can be purchased on a section 7 permit or is David Frost wrong in his book?

I know you cannot purchase firearms ammunition but there seems to be a difference between firearms and shotgun temp permit rules.

Given the long delays some renewals are taking this could be important to regular, high usage shooters.

Thanks

I believe that's already been answered and yes a S7 can allow you to buy cartridges for a S2 shotgun.

[David BASC]

Yes shotgun cartridges can be purchased