millrace Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 So here's the question is it wrong to have a bitch covered by a dog when they share the same parentage albeit completely different lines, the dog in question is dandrew druid........great grandfather one side father on other...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Depends on your views, those into line breeding would have no issues those who like to breed for health would frown on it. In the breed I have its a big no no as it seems to increase issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Had a dog from a well known chap and he advised he had a 'closed gene pool'. Euphemism for 'cant afford a good stud dog '. KC recommended. Nice dog but 3 years and it developed epilepsy. One very sad child and a very uncomfortable and expensive 2 weeks of the vet. The breeder is dead now but previously known for his terriers. Go for an unrelated line in MHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted March 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yea that's the thing with cockers, the druid and messyderyn lines predominate nearly every pedigree you see........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 In GWP's its suggested to be an issue with epilepsy, its probably more interesting in cockers at the moment as they seem to have loads of problems. I'm far from convinced that the ones I have seen collapse were exhaustion / sugar defficient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) That's true Millrace, you'll be hard put to find a 'well bred' cocker without Druid or Scimitar at least twice in the pedigree. It's pretty much the norm All we seem to have to choose from is two predominant lines in the cockers, Maesydderwen and Mallowdale at the moment. Edited March 27, 2015 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I would not be afraid to have druid in a pedigree a few times. Dogs like him a very very few and far between. Some of the stuff being churned out now are very very poor indeed. Litters advertised from mediocre,at best, bitches to ftch dogs will damage the breed far more, in my opinion, than any well thought out line breeding. Every year someone joins a breed, any breed, and all of a sudden they are out to rescue the breed. They honestly think the breed cannot survive without their input. These are the fools that ruin years and years of breeding. They know less than nothing but think they know everything. Get pups from those that have been,seen and done it many times over not the also rans. If you can buy in better than you can breed then don't breed. Rant over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berettacocker Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I would not be afraid to have druid in a pedigree a few times. Dogs like him a very very few and far between. Some of the stuff being churned out now are very very poor indeed. Litters advertised from mediocre,at best, bitches to ftch dogs will damage the breed far more, in my opinion, than any well thought out line breeding. Every year someone joins a breed, any breed, and all of a sudden they are out to rescue the breed. They honestly think the breed cannot survive without their input. These are the fools that ruin years and years of breeding. They know less than nothing but think they know everything. Get pups from those that have been,seen and done it many times over not the also rans. If you can buy in better than you can breed then don't breed. Rant over. I would not be afraid to have druid in a pedigree a few times. Dogs like him a very very few and far between. Some of the stuff being churned out now are very very poor indeed. Litters advertised from mediocre,at best, bitches to ftch dogs will damage the breed far more, in my opinion, than any well thought out line breeding. Every year someone joins a breed, any breed, and all of a sudden they are out to rescue the breed. They honestly think the breed cannot survive without their input. These are the fools that ruin years and years of breeding. They know less than nothing but think they know everything. Get pups from those that have been,seen and done it many times over not the also rans. If you can buy in better than you can breed then don't breed. Rant over. I agree get the best bred pup, after all you get what you pay for. But if you have a nice, maybe not best bred bitch, nothing wrong with putting a top quality dog over her to improve her breeding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I agree get the best bred pup, after all you get what you pay for. But if you have a nice, maybe not best bred bitch, nothing wrong with putting a top quality dog over her to improve her breeding? You cannot improve a bitches breeding by mating her. Her breeding is her breeding no matter what. If you are looking at a stud to put something into the pups that the bitch is lacking then, in my eyes, the bitch should not be getting bred from. The very best to the very best and hope for the best should be the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) You cannot improve a bitches breeding by mating her. Her breeding is her breeding no matter what. If you are looking at a stud to put something into the pups that the bitch is lacking then, in my eyes, the bitch should not be getting bred from. The very best to the very best and hope for the best should be the only way. I get what you're saying cocker boy but these lines are often very 'hot' and not necessarily what the shooting man / lady is after - and small, come to think of it. In this case maybe a bitch that isn't what some people would call 'good enough may have all the qualities he's looking for if she's that bit quieter, less hard hunting and self employed and a touch slower. I suppose we have to define what we'd say is 'the best'. 'The best' for you and I may be totally different from 'the best' for somebody who'd like a family pet but who can also go and do a day's shooting in whatever capacity and the owner not being in for a white knuckle ride . Both are equally viable and of equal merit I'd say Edited March 27, 2015 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) I get what you're saying cocker boy but these lines are often very 'hot' and not necessarily what the shooting man / lady is after - and small, come to think of it. In this case maybe a bitch that isn't what some people would call 'good enough may have all the qualities he's looking for if she's that bit quieter, less hard hunting and self employed and a touch slower. I suppose we have to define what we'd say is 'the best'. 'The best' for you and I may be totally different from 'the best' for somebody who'd like a family pet but who can also go and do a day's shooting in whatever capacity and the owner not being in for a white knuckle ride . Both are equally viable and of equal merit I'd say I wouldn't know about stuff that isn't the best of the best, they are circles I don't mix in. Ha ha. But I suppose those others getting bred from can help pay for a new car,kitchen,holiday,extension etc etc etc. All for the love of the breed of course. Lol Edited March 27, 2015 by cocker boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't know about stuff that isn't the best of the best, they are circles I don't mix in. Ha ha. But I suppose those others getting bred from can help pay for a new car,kitchen,holiday,extension etc etc etc. All for the love of the breed of course. Lol LOL get you Edited March 27, 2015 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I wouldn't know about stuff that isn't the best of the best, they are circles I don't mix in. Ha ha. But I suppose those others getting bred from can help pay for a new car,kitchen,holiday,extension etc etc etc. All for the love of the breed of course. Lol Would you 'suppose' that some might like to breed off a good working bitch on her merit's not her FTC pedigree? Would you 'suppose' that some would like to move away from the trial cockers which run around like lunatics for an hour then fall over? Or would you even consider the possibility that someone who has a good solid working bitch (no interest in trialling) might just want to breed to have a pup with the qualities they admire in the mother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Would you 'suppose' that some might like to breed off a good working bitch on her merit's not her FTC pedigree? Would you 'suppose' that some would like to move away from the trial cockers which run around like lunatics for an hour then fall over? Or would you even consider the possibility that someone who has a good solid working bitch (no interest in trialling) might just want to breed to have a pup with the qualities they admire in the mother? Of course they have a good solid working bitch, she is usually really good. Of course she is. How many people out shooting admit to owning a **** bitch?. None that's how many. Yet every shoot in the country is full of **** gundogs. Amazing fact that. But the money from a litter from the great bitch don't half come in handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Cocker boy has some very good points, esp about no one owning a **** dog but cockers are really quite inbred for the number of dogs. The big problem i think is people breeding **** dogs to FTCH's to make money but even folk breeding good bitches, how many actually ask a lot about the stud dog strength's/weakness's? In many cases ur good working bitch would produce better working pups if bred to a good working cocker. Trial dogs are no longer very good working dogs like they were 30+ years ago and are now bred and trained fairly specifically for trialling If it some genetic defect does show up in the future will be right throu the breed Can u not go on the KC site and put in the names and they will give u a Inbreeding co-effecient, some well known cocker studs are up about 25+% inbred They reckon with the eplisy in GWP's can unofficailly all be traced back to 1 import in the 80's a show dog which won loads and died very young, but too many kennels cannae admit it as it is throu so many lines and cannae be tested for. Took quite a few generation before anything showed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Of course they have a good solid working bitch, she is usually really good. Of course she is. How many people out shooting admit to owning a **** bitch?. None that's how many. Yet every shoot in the country is full of **** gundogs. Amazing fact that. But the money from a litter from the great bitch don't half come in handy. And how many of those ****gundogs come direct from 'proper breeders' who also supplement their holidays, this could go on all day so back to the OP line breeding is OK if there are no known problems. If there are its best to outcross and not add to others mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted March 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Got to answer a few points,,,, reason for breeding,, to me I've got a good dog from good lines who is only let down by my poor training so yes prob classed as one of those **** dogs on the shoot,but she misses nowt puts all the springers to shame when they run on she sniffs dives in and up comes the bird,,,, now more important to me is that she has a class temperament as she is also my kids pet and is so easy going with them and when has had enough just jumps up to chair at window or clears of to a bedroom out of the way....this is what is important to me, now I can quite easily afford to go and buy any pup I can find but will I get this easy going temperament chance I don't need to take,, now financial gain nope not the case either I need 1 pup for me and already have 2 ppl who have asked for a pup if there is any more unknown to them this will be a gift from me no money will be taken, I'm not breeding for money just trying to get myself another decent dog to shoot over........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurchers Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Do you not think people look at ftch to much in a pedigree than looking at how both parents are.there is people who breed good dogs from working stuff who can't get the prices of ftch.if both sides are off good workers doesn't mean the pups will be good weather it's off ftch or not.you get good and bad in both sides so don't think they need ftch in to make the grade as it doesn't work that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I agre with lurchers above. Millrace i would be looking for a sire that compliments any weakness's ur bitch has, if that is a FTW/FTCH all well and good but far more important to do ur homework and get a stud to suit ur bitch. FTCH no longer means the best genetic dog out a litter just the best trained 1 and with so many proffessional dog trainers the gap between most/good normal trainser is widening all the time, and also folk going throu 10-20 pups a season just to find a decent 1 which a lot of trainers will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Funny the dog is not trialed or won anything......lol just a good hunting dog it was the druid on both side and others in the lines I just don't know how similar they shd be before they are to alike as per original post before it ceems the breeding experts ran of on a tangent...each to their own I've ceen trailing dogs that WD be useless for me to shoot over as they never go more than a few feet away not much use in Irish gorse flushing woodcock.......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurchers Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) If they are similar in there ways and both do what you want them to do is that not a good thing to be using.i think with a full pedigree of red just helps to sell your pups better.i know a hell of a trainer for esp as he has shot and trained them for over 40yrs and all he does is rough shooting and wouldn't thank you for field trials and his dogs are top notch,but hardly and red in there pedigree the only problem is he will help you train your dog with you but wouldn't train any of his to sell on as he says he doesn't have the heart to get rid of them once he has trained it as he get attached to them. Edited March 28, 2015 by lurchers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.w. Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Funny the dog is not trialed or won anything......lol just a good hunting dog it was the druid on both side and others in the lines I just don't know how similar they shd be before they are to alike as per original post before it ceems the breeding experts ran of on a tangent...each to their own I've ceen trailing dogs that WD be useless for me to shoot over as they never go more than a few feet away not much use in Irish gorse flushing woodcock.......lolTo the original post the answer is yes, don't breed to close as this brings problems with it to be as safe as you can pick good lines that are as far away from each others breeding as possible this keeps the gene pool and gives a healthy litter.You only need to see what has happened to the cockers there pool is small and problems have come with it the guys that have bred the good dogs have seen them crossed with every Tom **** and Harry and is harmful to the cockers, it's now common at shoots to see fitting cockers that I don't remember happening 30 years ago cocker boy is spot on in what he says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Do you not think people look at ftch to much in a pedigree than looking at how both parents are.there is people who breed good dogs from working stuff who can't get the prices of ftch.if both sides are off good workers doesn't mean the pups will be good weather it's off ftch or not.you get good and bad in both sides so don't think they need ftch in to make the grade as it doesn't work that way. With no interest in trialing I would much rather buy a pup from someone I know has good working dogs and where I can see both parents , and they have good hip and eye scores I would take that over paying inflated prices for a dog with a mainly red pedigree . I would guess there are as many if not more excellent working dogs out there than there that have never seen a trial than there is that have . Of course if trialing was my bag then I would be wanting what I believe to be a pup with the best chance of being successful at it . So for me just because a dog has a lot of red does not particulary make it best of the best ,and even if it was , put it with a poor trainer and it will still be ****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurchers Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 With no interest in trialing I would much rather buy a pup from someone I know has good working dogs and where I can see both parents , and they have good hip and eye scores I would take that over paying inflated prices for a dog with a mainly red pedigree . I would guess there are as many if not more excellent working dogs out there than there that have never seen a trial than there is that have . Of course if trialing was my bag then I would be wanting what I believe to be a pup with the best chance of being successful at it . So for me just because a dog has a lot of red does not particulary make it best of the best ,and even if it was , put it with a poor trainer and it will still be ****. Like I said red means nothing,but like everything else there will be better out there that has never seen a trail and never will that makes me pick that breed from than ftch every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Personally I see a fair few people who trial and personally i don't think they make good pickers up. Simply as they treat it like practice for trialling rather than the other way round. Dogs sent one at a time working on steadiness etc the really good people are the ones who can work multiple dogs at the same time and they make it look effortless. Usually they aren't the ones with two dogs and one sits at heel all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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