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20-22yrd Fox control


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Last couple of mornings I have a bloody great fox coming after my chickens in the garden around 5.30am,

I could have him with my 22lr ?

 

Would sub sonics suffice ?

Presumably a headshot for humane despatch, but whereabouts in head would be best ?

 

I'm not proposing to make a habit of this, merely to deal with a specific threat.

Heart shot will also work well, follow rear of front leg up, about a third of the way up from the bottom of the body. Subbies ideal.

A

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Update :

Well after seeing him on Friday morning and chasing up the garden in just my boxers :sick:

Said fox has not reappeared :good:

 

As was mentioned by several respondents,

I personally could not legally shoot it as I don't have an open FAC

 

I should add in closing

No humans were injured, upset or disturbed by the sight of me chasing up the garden in me boxers lol

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Update :

Well after seeing him on Friday morning and chasing up the garden in just my boxers :sick:

Said fox has not reappeared :good:

 

As was mentioned by several respondents,

I personally could not legally shoot it as I don't have an open FAC

 

I should add in closing

No humans were injured, upset or disturbed by the sight of me chasing up the garden in me boxers lol

At least we should be thankful you had some clothes on. :)

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+1

Isn't the root cause of any problems we get the fact that said idiots should not even be attempting to interpret the law but simply to adhere to it and apply as specified? After all, as said, "it seems pretty bloody clear to me".

 

:yes::yes::yes:

 

The problem I see is many regions/FEO simply don't know the law, and/or FEO are under pressure to adhere to the Policy of their region, even though it has no force of Law.

 

Add to that the fact many FAC applicants are new, and don't know the law themselves, or are too nervous to question the FEO (from what I can see on PW, THL, etc., etc this also applies to far to many long term FAC holders as well), and the regions continue to get away with it.

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Its interesting reading this thread and talking to my FEO.

 

I spoke to them for some advice prior to putting in my Fac application in recently. I only wanted to apply for rimfires for vermin control, rabbits and foxs on my dads farm. They said no to .22 for foxs and said that hmr would be accepted. I asked if i could use a wmr on foxs, the reply was - quote "whats a wmr?". When id finished explaining a wmr the response was - quote "its still a .22" and they said during the conversation "you probably know more than i do".

 

How can we interperate law accuratly if the enforcers are different from one force to the next and some dont seem to know enough about the subject?

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Its interesting reading this thread and talking to my FEO.

 

I spoke to them for some advice prior to putting in my Fac application in recently. I only wanted to apply for rimfires for vermin control, rabbits and foxs on my dads farm. They said no to .22 for foxs and said that hmr would be accepted. I asked if i could use a wmr on foxs, the reply was - quote "whats a wmr?". When id finished explaining a wmr the response was - quote "its still a .22" and they said during the conversation "you probably know more than i do".

 

How can we interperate law accuratly if the enforcers are different from one force to the next and some dont seem to know enough about the subject?

A shocking state of affairs. There is a fair bit of guidance that has been issued to the forces to ensure "consistency" unfortunately they are not there yet. For example all forces should use the AOLQ (Any Other Lawful Quarry) condition on all new licences but not all are. As you say it is sometimes the case when shooters know more about shooting then the FEOs (I have found this on a number of occasions). I imagine there will be similar posts and threads five years from now.

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I don't know - if he was totally naked, he could just wait until the fox sees him, it falls over laughing, then he can nip up and hit it with a shovel! :lol::whistling:

But don't foxes often eat worms

Oh in Durham,running around the garden naked waving a shovel around will certainly get your licence revoked( only joking)

Edited by Davyo
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Update :

Well after seeing him on Friday morning and chasing up the garden in just my boxers :sick:

Said fox has not reappeared :good:

 

As was mentioned by several respondents,

I personally could not legally shoot it as I don't have an open FAC

 

I should add in closing

No humans were injured, upset or disturbed by the sight of me chasing up the garden in me boxers lol

Well bud, you have sussed it, I must admit the thought of you running after me in just your boxers would certainly put me off for ever :lol: . I am sure after seeing that horrible sight he has efed off to some where safer :good::lol: .

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In practical terms it is best to have an open licence with the AOLQ condition. My force, Cambridgeshire, seem more sensible than many (thanks). The law (or should I say the interpretation by police forces) over fox, vermin and shooting with .22 rimfire is too messy and no-one want to be a test case. .22 rimfire is excellent for close range fox, especially where discretion is required (gardens).

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In practical terms it is best to have an open licence with the AOLQ condition. My force, Cambridgeshire, seem more sensible than many (thanks). The law (or should I say the interpretation by police forces) over fox, vermin and shooting with .22 rimfire is too messy and no-one want to be a test case. .22 rimfire is excellent for close range fox, especially where discretion is required (gardens).

 

I struggle to believe there will ever be a need for a test case when the Home Office Guide says.......

 

"13.19 .......................... The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow....

 

 

I simply don't see any region bringing a case that goes against the Home Office Guide!

 

The guide also says .22lr and fox are compatible.

 

see #25 for more detail.

Edited by Dekers
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Legally he can if it's deemed suitable by his chief constable.

 

This thread had shown he doesn't have an Open FAC and his garden has not been cleared, so he can't.

 

Most certainly, if someone has a closed FAC but their garden is cleared then they can.

 

:good:

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North Wales not allowed. 22 for fox

Crazy given that we all know it works.

 

If anyone from N Wales has Vermin or AOLQ then they can, and most certainly anyone from any other region with either Fox, Vermin or AOLQ against their .22lr can legally shoot them in N Wales. The Home Office guide says fox is Vermin and .22lr can be used against them.

 

I suggest a lot of people in N Wales have Vermin on their FAC against a .22lr, and as the Home Office guide says Fox is Vermin I would like to see N Wales argue against the Home Office it isn't.

 

So that really does make N Wales Policy very silly.

Edited by Dekers
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I am sorry but when the FEO/Licensing officer says "you can't have this because of this" and it is incorrect...do people not question the reasons and judgements?

 

I am not suggesting you chuck your toys out of the pram but if you ask a question rather than what IMO you should be doing is justifying what you want

 

if you want a .22 for fox and the HO guidance says you can then you are not a test case.

They are.
they now need to prove to the HO why they think the guidance is wrong

 

do you homework, lay out the facts and get what you want

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This has been dealt with before.. and before... and yes, it is a bit silly.

 

There are two main issues.

 

When justifying to the police the "good reason" for requiring a rifle, most forces will not accept that shooting foxes is an acceptable "good reason" for granting a .22 rimfire.

 

What is acceptable, for initial grant is, for example, rabbit control.

 

When you actually own a .22 rimfire, the law allows you to shoot (ALQ) Any Lawful Quarry. Shooting foxes with .22 rimfire is entirely lawful - but as with everything firearms, subject to your certificate conditions, and that is where the Chief Constables powers come to bear - it is a local decision and that decision carries the weight of the law.

 

Foxes have not been defined in law as vermin and there has never been a test case.

 

The new 2015 Home Office Guidelines do, however, help us by declaring that:

 

......The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow. ......

 

All subject to the Wildlife and Countryside Act of course.

 

If your rifle is conditioned ALQ then there is no problem and no grey area. If it simply says 'vermin' then it is still open to interpretation in law so get it changed to ALQ. If you have, say, a .223 which specifically says fox on your certificate while your .22lr says vermin, that may suggest that your police force sees fox and vermin as different things. It is down to the interpretation of the law by the Chief Constable and until tested in court it remains a grey area, no matter what the Home Office Guidance may say. Guidance is not law.

 

The 2015 Home Office Guidance also states:

 

".22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill."

 

So make life easy for yourselves. Always get the landowners permission in writing and make sure that your firearms certificate states any lawful quarry for every rifle that you own.

 

If you want a .22 rimfire for fox you probably will not get it if that is your "good reason".

 

If you have a .22 rimfire and want to use it appropriately as a short range weapon against fox then make sure that your certificate is appropriately worded, just cover your back.

 

Rightly or wrongly, it is at the discretion of your Chief Constable. The law is not clear and guidlines are not law. If you are prosecuted and become the test case and win the decision that foxes are vermin it will have taken a year or more out of your life, the confiscation of your guns for that period, and possibly many thousands of pounds with no legal aid and only the vague hope that costs would be awarded in your favour. RSPCA and Animal Liberationists have deep pockets and illogical thought processes. It might be them that bring an unreasonable and malicious publicity seeking case against you, not the police who want a quiet life!

Edited by dadioles
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