Help with some info on my gun?

[demonwolf444]

Someone who is a member of the IGC might chime in later if your lucky. That is a fine fine gun, likely to be a restocked gun as mentioned and that's going off the widows peak on the but plate and over all condition of finish and checkering, read and understand the proof marks, and make sure you find a suitable load.

 

If its nitro proofed Hull imperial game is an excellent cartridge for lighter side by sides if its nitro proofed - 2 1/2 inch ( 65mm cases ) loaded from 24 gram to 30 or 32 in 5's and 6's from memory but 26 and 28 in 6's are very pleasant and effective for comfortable shooting in lighter side by sides.

 

A cheaper cart is 65mm cased Hull Comp X which is also not to bad and much cheaper than above, but thats obviously a clay load, 28g/7.5's/ 65mm fiber.

 

Many of these old guns were produced as part of the birmingham trade and then finished and branded by other "makers" or even just retailers, never the less many fantastic quality guns were made as part of the trade, and yours is certainly one of them.

 

I'm sure we will all be looking forward to hearing about your outings together ( especially with more pictures of that awesome wood )

 

One never to part with that, provided its looked after its one to pass down, irrespective of what you paid its in your cabinet now, and your a lucky man for it.

 

James.

Edited April 21, 2015 by demonwolf444

[Reeceknight]

Someone who is a member of the IGC might chime in later if your lucky. That is a fine fine gun, likely to be a restocked gun as mentioned and that's going off the widows peak on the but plate and over all condition of finish and checkering, read and understand the proof marks, and make sure you find a suitable load.

 

If its nitro proofed Hull imperial game is an excellent cartridge for lighter side by sides if its nitro proofed - 2 1/2 inch ( 65mm cases ) loaded from 24 gram to 30 or 32 in 5's and 6's from memory but 26 and 28 in 6's are very pleasant and effective for comfortable shooting in lighter side by sides.

 

A cheaper cart is 65mm cased Hull Comp X which is also not to bad and much cheaper than above, but thats obviously a clay load, 28g/7.5's/ 65mm fiber.

 

Many of these old guns were produced as part of the birmingham trade and then finished and branded by other "makers" or even just retailers, never the less many fantastic quality guns were made as part of the trade, and yours is certainly one of them.

 

I'm sure we will all be looking forward to hearing about your outings together ( especially with more pictures of that awesome wood )

 

One never to part with that, provided its looked after its one to pass down, irrespective of what you paid its in your cabinet now, and your a lucky man for it.

 

James.

Cheers for taking time to write that mate as I was wondering about loads etc, I know it's 2 1/4 chamber and been reroofed recently but don't know about the nitro proof. cheers for that 👍🏼

[Old Boggy]

Just to add to what has already been said on this, the screw at the rear of the fences, indicates that it has intercepting sears (these lock the internal hammers when the safety is on as opposed to just locking the triggers and so prevents accidental discharge which can stll happen if the safety only locks the triggers).

This is another sign that the gun is of excellent quality over and above the general run of the mill guns made at the time.

It would be interesting to see the proof marks to establish the age of the gun.

As said previously, James Crockart may be able to assist with the approximate age from some possible records still held by them, as I believe that they were the same company at some time as the name on your gun.

Very best of luck with your research of this lovely gun, and of course it will be an absolute pleasure to shoot with suitable cartridges.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

That deserves to be used with paper cases!

[Reeceknight]

[Reeceknight]

Anyone make sense of that 😂

[Andy H]

Well some of the old markings there were only used from 1875 to 1887.

IE the 12b 14m Not for ball

Edited April 22, 2015 by Andy H

[Reeceknight]

Well some of the old markings there were only used from 1875 to 1887.

IE the 12b 14m Not for ball

oh really!? Is it that old!? Is that 100% an indication of age? good info there!

Edited April 22, 2015 by Reeceknight

[DanWalker]

No need to use it with paper cases, reproofed at 2 3/4 inch/70mm. Original marks look like London 1875-87 proof rules. Full list of UK proof marks here: http://www.shotguns.se/html/uk.html . If it is a screw grip action (hard to tell from the photos - any chance of a picture of toplever and/or the rib extension of the barrels?) that would put it in a very short time frame. I think the patent for the Webley and Brain action was 1882 or 1884 off the top of my head.

 

Certainly looks well made, and with modern reproof should be a handy gun. Congratulations again

[Andy H]

Two gunsmiths working together Anson and Deeley developed the boxlock action in 1875.

[Reeceknight]

Perfect now we're getting somewhere! more photos as requested

 

 

 

[DanWalker]

Yep, that looks like a Webley and Brain patent screw grip to me (but I'm not an expert, just an enthusiast) so it's post-'82 and pre'87 (give or take).

 

Webley offered a bewildering array (to me at least) of models to the trade which could then be completed to the customer's satisfaction.

 

There's a similar but not identical one retailed by W. Richards on Guntrader at the moment.

 

Out of interest what's the rib say? Does it have an address? That can often be the best clue to tracking down the origin.

 

Every picture I see, I get more jealous!

[panoma1]

Looks like a Westley Richards made gun, Anson & Deeley worked for them, (A&D) invented the boxlock action in 1875, "not for ball" was used between 1875 and 1887, so that dates it between 1875 and 1887.

Originally BP proofed in London.

Reproofed In Brum 2013.

[demonwolf444]

As has been said when it has had its chambers lengthened at some point, the markings 12 - 70 mean its suitable for use with 70mm cartridges ie 2 and 3/4 cartridges.

 

From what we can see without picking it up, or measuring wall thicknesses etc ( which we can pretty much safely assume are fine if it passed reproof in 2013 ) you really have a very high quality gun.

 

The "not for ball" marking is an interesting one, in one of my old shotgun books its said a good shotgun should put two balls within 4 inches of each other at 50 yards, so i think it was a lot more common than is is now to put balls through them the not for ball marking was introduced as choked bores became more common, sometimes old guns can have quite considerable choke, or sometimes it can be a very small constriction of a few thou so guns with any apreciable choke from 1875-1887 usually are marked to say not for ball, after 87 just the word "choke" replaces the not for ball marking as choke boring was successfully marketed by greener customers could order best guns and ask for them to print certain number's of pellets with certain loads at certain ranges ( cards were often stuck in the inside of case lids reminded the owner what the pet load was they had chosen ) which is an option still available when ordering from best gun makers today.

 

This might be useful for reference - just ignore the red box.

 

 

I think the type of damascus your barrels are made of is the four iron oxford type, good little document on the different types of damascus is here:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zEE1xuaNuR26Drg3E_IMUEpA_YThLMP0VSIx2xJM9bA/edit

 

The intercepting safety's are an ingenious device that basically prevents the hammers from falling fully in case the gun was dropped or due to accidental discharge, the way the mechanism works is basically behind the normal seers is another sear, when the triggers are pulled the sear for the intercepting safety is released just before the normal sear allowing the gun to fire. If the normal firing mechanism faulted some how and the gun went off without you pulling the trigger the intercepting sear would not have been released and the hammers would be stopped before reaching the firing pins. The reason it was developed is because your normal tang safety only blocks the triggers and not the firing mechanism, therefore if the gun was dropped and was not fitted with intercepting safetys the tang safety would do very little to make the gun safe, the intercepting sears block the firing mechanism

 

If you want more info on the intercepting sears then the gunsmith in this youtube series talks over the mechanism taking the gun apart and showing how it operates on a gun he is working on i don't know if its in part one two or three but its somewhere in there:

 

 

The intercepting safety was a feature that was mostly used on higher end guns, the Birmingham trade began producing boxlock guns in quantity for the lower end of the market the extra parts and milling required to the action obviously correlates to a higher production cost and therefore the mechanism was never used on mass.

 

If your a man who reads vic venters gun craft gives a good simple over view on the subject though there are many other titles worth reading i'll pm you a reading list if it is a subject your interested in.

Edited April 22, 2015 by demonwolf444

[DanWalker]

Looks like a Westley Richards made gun, Anson & Deeley worked for them, (A&D) invented the boxlock action in 1875, "not for ball" was used between 1875 and 1887, so that dates it between 1875 and 1887.

Originally BP proofed in London.

Reproofed In Brum 2013.

 

Yes, Westley Richards owned the Anson & Deeley patent (no. 1756 of 1875) but they licensed its use to other manufacturers including Webley. That's why this gun carries the stamp 'Anson & Deeley's Patent' followed by the use number (4336) - Westley Richards were very careful to ensure there was no infringement of their patent, hence the court cases with Greener. The patent expired in 1889 at which point everyone was free to make A&D actions without paying Westley Richards a royalty.

 

The Webley "screw grip" is the third bite operated off the toplever which tightens on a stepped dollshead extension - Webley didn't license this patent to any other manufacturers as far as I'm aware so you can pretty much guarantee a gun of this age with a screw third grip was built in the Webley factory. They may have been finished elsewhere though.

[Reeceknight]

Thanks for all the great info so far chaps! Much appreciated

[mick miller]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this looks like a fake to me. Those stamps simply don't ring true. More likely this is nothing other than a cheap Baikal that has some hydro dipping and other tweaks to it so as to fool the local village idiot.

 

Made by Crockett & Tubbs, come on...

 

Have you tried scraping the stock and barrel with a blunt knife to see if any of the paint comes off Reece? I'd start with the barrel, give it one good long scrape with an edge and see if that 'Damascus' finish peels off. If it's bonded really well give the stock and forened a good scrape too, eventually it should peel off.

 

Good luck.

Edited April 23, 2015 by mick miller

[Reeceknight]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this looks like a fake to me. Those stamps simply don't ring true. More likely this is nothing other than a cheap Baikal that has some hydro dipping and other tweaks to it so as to fool the local village idiot.

 

Made by Crockett & Tubbs, come on...

 

Have you tried scraping the stock and barrel with a blunt knife to see if any of the paint comes off Reece? I'd start with the barrel, give it one good long scrape with an edge and see if that 'Damascus' finish peels off. If it's bonded really well give the stock and forened a good scrape too, eventually it should peel off.

 

Good luck.

 

 

😂😂😂😂 this cracked me up mate top banter lol

[Harnser]

this cracked me up mate top banter lol

 

No,no,it's true . My offer of 35 Jim still stands .

 

Harnser

[Reeceknight]

As has been said when it has had its chambers lengthened at some point, the markings 12 - 70 mean its suitable for use with 70mm cartridges ie 2 and 3/4 cartridges.

 

From what we can see without picking it up, or measuring wall thicknesses etc ( which we can pretty much safely assume are fine if it passed reproof in 2013 ) you really have a very high quality gun.

 

The "not for ball" marking is an interesting one, in one of my old shotgun books its said a good shotgun should put two balls within 4 inches of each other at 50 yards, so i think it was a lot more common than is is now to put balls through them the not for ball marking was introduced as choked bores became more common, sometimes old guns can have quite considerable choke, or sometimes it can be a very small constriction of a few thou so guns with any apreciable choke from 1875-1887 usually are marked to say not for ball, after 87 just the word "choke" replaces the not for ball marking as choke boring was successfully marketed by greener customers could order best guns and ask for them to print certain number's of pellets with certain loads at certain ranges ( cards were often stuck in the inside of case lids reminded the owner what the pet load was they had chosen ) which is an option still available when ordering from best gun makers today.

 

This might be useful for reference - just ignore the red box.

 

 

I think the type of damascus your barrels are made of is the four iron oxford type, good little document on the different types of damascus is here:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zEE1xuaNuR26Drg3E_IMUEpA_YThLMP0VSIx2xJM9bA/edit

 

The intercepting safety's are an ingenious device that basically prevents the hammers from falling fully in case the gun was dropped or due to accidental discharge, the way the mechanism works is basically behind the normal seers is another sear, when the triggers are pulled the sear for the intercepting safety is released just before the normal sear allowing the gun to fire. If the normal firing mechanism faulted some how and the gun went off without you pulling the trigger the intercepting sear would not have been released and the hammers would be stopped before reaching the firing pins. The reason it was developed is because your normal tang safety only blocks the triggers and not the firing mechanism, therefore if the gun was dropped and was not fitted with intercepting safetys the tang safety would do very little to make the gun safe, the intercepting sears block the firing mechanism

 

If you want more info on the intercepting sears then the gunsmith in this youtube series talks over the mechanism taking the gun apart and showing how it operates on a gun he is working on i don't know if its in part one two or three but its somewhere in there:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM0FlvFtzkI

 

The intercepting safety was a feature that was mostly used on higher end guns, the Birmingham trade began producing boxlock guns in quantity for the lower end of the market the extra parts and milling required to the action obviously correlates to a higher production cost and therefore the mechanism was never used on mass.

 

If your a man who reads vic venters gun craft gives a good simple over view on the subject though there are many other titles worth reading i'll pm you a reading list if it is a subject your interested in.

 

I have just decided to really disect all you guys information and I completely missed this post as when I came on the thread I must have missed it! this is so helpful now I can actually explain about the gun when asked! Thank you for taking the time with videos, links and photos. 👍🏼👍🏼 if I could green rep you (like other forums) I would.

 

the gun has since done fair bit of pigeon shooting, using light loads around the 26 gram mark, as anything else is fairly uncomfortable, I done a round of Clays using 21grm and 24 gram and shot just as well with it as my over and under so thanks for all the info on cartridges .

 

It's a pleasure to shoot and feels very special when out with it 👍🏼. I have since spoken to James crockart in Scotland and had a few things explained but most is what you guys have already told me, he told me not to lock it away but to use it as much as possible 😁 so once again thanks to you all. very helpful.