RossEM Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Shame that it ruins rabbits, never shot .22 Magnum or Hornet, are they as bad for ricochet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Shame that it ruins rabbits, never shot .22 Magnum or Hornet, are they as bad for ricochet? It doesn't if you head shoot them. Our game dealer will only pay full price for headshot rabbits. Even when I had a .22mag' they were still all headshot; can't say I noticed any more ricochets with the mag' than I do with lr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Shame that it ruins rabbits, never shot .22 Magnum or Hornet, are they as bad for ricochet?The WMR will mess a bunny up very much so. It has more punch the the HMR and as for the hornet... Well I personally would rather it shot by the.22lr haha. With regards ricochets the WRM and HMR in my own personal experience is there about the same. The hornet I would say slightly less chance. But that doesn't mean they won't. Any calibre fired at a certain angle into certain types of ground will skip about like a flat pebble across a still pond. Just my 2p worth Edited May 12, 2015 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) As I’ve said before on this, the stance of my FEO (rightly or wrongly) was: • West Mercia will not put AOLQ against .22lr to stop folk using them on fox. Or at least they don’t like to issue the AOLQ at all.• West Mercia will not put the fox condition down against .22lr and they see fox as a separate condition not covered by "pest".• If he hears of me or any other WMP ticket holders using .22lr on fox he will have there ticket removed/revoked. I wasn’t going to argue with my FLO as I don’t have the confidence or knowledge to engage him fully on this. I also have yet to meet a single other SGC/FAC holder who has a good word to say about this individual. And he has what I want so am afraid rightly or wrongly I don’t want to upset him or rock the boat. Other comments he has made to me jut to give you an idea of him are:• 17HMR mach 2/ HMR2 - is a far better and more capable round then HMR, his mate has one and he’s seen him shoot loads with it.• He’s watched someone head shoot a fox at 40ish yards with a .22lr and the round bounced off the fox’s head and the fox ran off injured which bolstered his anti 22lr / fox stance. He’s ex-military and from fellow shooters in the local area and threw my work I have herd of him upsetting all of them with a definite air about him as if he thinks he’s ex SF. As said above, this is what he departed on me when I broached the topic. ATB Matt Edited May 12, 2015 by salop sniper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted May 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Matt, sounds like a pretty **** position you're in there. Obviously I can't convince you, but if it was me I would be on to his boss for clarification and BASC for advice - your FEO sounds...interesting. I've no idea how WMP have legally interpreted point 2, as far as I'm aware there's nothing that exempts fox from AOLQ in Firearms Law or the HO Guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 As Ive said before on this, the stance of my FEO (rightly or wrongly) was: West Mercia will not put AOLQ against .22lr to stop folk using them on fox. Or at least they dont like to issue the AOLQ at all. West Mercia will not put the fox condition down against .22lr and they see fox as a separate condition not covered by "pest". If he hears of me or any other WMP ticket holders using .22lr on fox he will have there ticket removed/revoked. I wasnt going to argue with my FLO as I dont have the confidence or knowledge to engage him fully on this. I also have yet to meet a single other SGC/FAC holder who has a good word to say about this individual. And he has what I want so am afraid rightly or wrongly I dont want to upset him or rock the boat. Other comments he has made to me jut to give you an idea of him are: 17HMR mach 2/ HMR2 - is a far better and more capable round then HMR, his mate has one and hes seen him shoot loads with it. Hes watched someone head shoot a fox at 40ish yards with a .22lr and the round bounced off the foxs head and the fox ran off injured which bolstered his anti 22lr / fox stance. Hes ex-military and from fellow shooters in the local area and threw my work I have herd of him upsetting all of them with a definite air about him as if he thinks hes ex SF. As said above, this is what he departed on me when I broached the topic. ATB Matt Ahhhh yes the old bullet bouncing off the head story haha surly this old twaddle can't still be doing the rounds? Think it's more the case the person just missed lol 😁 Ps. I'm not taking the micky out of you mate. Far from it. Think your FEO needs a kick up the *** and educated. For what's worth a.Cci stinger ( 191 ft lbs ) at 50 yrds square in the chest would knock a fox flat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 As I’ve said before on this, the stance of my FEO (rightly or wrongly) was: • West Mercia will not put AOLQ against .22lr to stop folk using them on fox. Or at least they don’t like to issue the AOLQ at all. • West Mercia will not put the fox condition down against .22lr and they see fox as a separate condition not covered by "pest". • If he hears of me or any other WMP ticket holders using .22lr on fox he will have there ticket removed/revoked. they don't need to put AOLQ on it...but they do need to answer to the Home Office if they go against the guidance They won't put fox as a condition but then say it is not covered by "vermin"? can't have it both ways or are they again going against home office guidance? What exactly is he going to do to have it removed? create a case law? never been tested in court and I am pretty sure his firearms manager doesnt want it tested on his watch. discreet letter to your Chief Constable and the HEAD of the Firearms office reminding him of their obligations to follow HO Guidance or justify their departure from it: I suggest a copy of the below in your letter: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417199/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v13.pdf Fox 13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes. 10.38 There is no requirement to establish ‘good reason’ for additional conditions or the addition of quarry species to an existing condition where ‘good reason’ already exists for the possession of a firearm in the first instance (See chapter 13). Firearms should be conditioned to provide flexibility with quarry shooting by allowing all lawful quarry (see Appendix 3) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Fully agree guys, but any come back is on me and then I have to carry on dealing with the FLO. Am sure there must be others on who have the same FLO as there are others from my area. The initials: SL should confirm this. ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted May 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Complain anonymously through BASC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyflier Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 I have shot 6 foxes with my .17 HMR, each one was head shot, they dropped without a twitch. They were shot at no more than 100 Yards on a nil wind evening where they were making a real nuisance of themselves. I can thoroughly recommend a .17 HMR for foxes where shot placement is in the capabilities of the firer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 I've taken a few foxes with 22LR without any problems. All you really need to be aware of is the slowness of the bullet compared to HMR and C/F calibres, so you need the fox to be pretty still. I shoot 40grain Fiocchi subsonics - listed as 1050 fps, it works out as 98 ft lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Ahhhh yes the old bullet bouncing off the head story haha surly this old twaddle can't still be doing the rounds? Think it's more the case the person just missed lol I have done this with HMR and .22 once with each both the same scenario fox facing, standing slightly higher ground shot was smack on between the eyes or just above eye line look at the angle of an eye line or above shot : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) Having a debate with a bloke on FB shooting group as to whether .22LR is a suitable calibre for fox. He's telling me that his FEO "makes the rules" and he also thinks .22LR isn't powerful enough. I'm saying it's irrelevant if your ticket allows it - it's down to the judgement of the shooter and the particular circumstances of the shot. I'm not an FAC holder but a have witnessed one cleanly killed with a .22LR by a farming mate, he was carring .243 as well, but the fox popped up at 30 yards and he quickly shot it rather than swapping rifles and letting the fox run. He has an open ticket with AOLQ on the .22LR. I'd like to get a consensus on this from experienced FAC holders. Cheers, Ross It can often be awkward taking the FEO to task but he does not make the rules. As outlined earlier in this thread the Home Office sanctions .22lr for fox as appropriate, and also quote fox to be vermin, so you don't need AOLQ either. This very subject has been debated many a time and as per various responses already, .22lr is very capable of dealing with foxes when used within its capabilities and those of the shooter...exactly the same could be said about any quarry and calibre! Edit Yes, .22LR is a suitable calibre for foxes Yes, when the circumstances are right You don't need both of those headings, they go hand in hand, do you say.... 1.Yes a .243 is suitable for deer 2.Yes, when the circumstances are right ....but a .243 isn't suitable for deer 2 miles away, as a .22lr isn't suitable for a fox 200 yards away, like I say, it goes without saying! Edited May 15, 2015 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 My point was that he didn't mention whether there was a safe backstop or not - there are a lot of novice members on the page and omitting that detail sets an incredibly bad example IMO. I've no experience of shooting branchers (but totally sympathise with controlling them), only supervised shooting of rabbits, carrion crows and foxes with .22 & .222 so can't really comment but I don't think I'd be comfortable without a backstop. That's weird about TVP. My former FEO told me he was personally discouraging new FAC applicants from .22LR (not that he has any real grounds to do so) and I was very surprised, because as far as I know .17HMR is a much harder hitting and longer range calibre than .22 - you would think that TVP would be cautious about granting a more 'lethal' calibre to novices. That's interesting I can remeber a few years ago being turned down for 22 WMR and HMR by TVP for writing Winchester Magnum Rimfire for vermin as they don't allow Magnum rounds for vermin and fox, I was told to apply for a 223 or 22-250 as they where more suitable and less powerful!! Enough said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 It can often be awkward taking the FEO to task but he does not make the rules. As outlined earlier in this thread the Home Office sanctions .22lr for fox as appropriate, and also quote fox to be vermin, so you don't need AOLQ either. The issue I see is having to negotiate once an FEO comes back to reject or change your mind you are on a hiding to nothing as they will never allow themselves to lose face with you or their peers get your info right FROM THE BEGINNING make your case with all the relevant safety, humane reasons, HO guidance etc BEFORE it goes to the FEO make his job easy and he will push it upstairs for signature every time give him something that he thinks his boss will shout at him for and you will get a rejection or change of tack from them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 That's interesting I can remeber a few years ago being turned down for 22 WMR and HMR by TVP for writing Winchester Magnum Rimfire for vermin as they don't allow Magnum rounds for vermin and fox, I was told to apply for a 223 or 22-250 as they where more suitable and less powerful!! Enough said Mad. So what do they think Magnum rounds are suitable for then?!! This is the problem with not having experienced people advising licensing departments - you potentially end up with novices being granted calibres which are way over the top for their needs, and following their licensing department's incorrect advice! I can't personally see what would be wrong with any of the beefier .22 rimfire rounds on small game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Mad. So what do they think Magnum rounds are suitable for then?!! This is the problem with not having experienced people advising licensing departments - you potentially end up with novices being granted calibres which are way over the top for their needs, and following their licensing department's incorrect advice! I can't personally see what would be wrong with any of the beefier .22 rimfire rounds on small game. The policy referred (according to the Chief Custables reply to my letter) to magnum centre fire rounds like 300 Win mag and belted magnums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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