rich1985 Posted May 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 I did not March up to them spouting I'm going to do this or that, I just made them aware of what COULD happen, I did not say I will do this or I will do that. I in no way threatened to shoot there dog. Like I said I will be making some phone calls this week. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) I did not say I will do this or I will do that. I in no way threatened to shoot there dog. Maybe you should edit your original post below. I caught the owner and said if needs be I would shoot the dog . Edited May 17, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Not going to get involved anymore, farmers shot dogs on a regular basis if it is a last resort and the criteria are met there really is no problem. All very well being cautious but sometimes folk are inventing there own interepation of laws esp with firearms But pheasants really are a grey area, are only livestock while actually in the pen and even that is slightly grey area if they can fly out. Really u cannae shoot a dog for killing pheasants, yet keepers do do it on occasion (but ur on pretty shaky ground legally) As with any legal advice phone and ask Basc, there is no defence in saying so and so on the 'internet' said it was ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Ordnance, I did read the farmers weekly article. It deals with lots of what if's, my statement does not. It is black and white but people are confusing matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Ordnance, I did read the farmers weekly article. It deals with lots of what if's, my statement does not. It is black and white but people are confusing matters. +1 agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) Ordnance, I did read the farmers weekly article. It deals with lots of what if's, my statement does not. It is black and white but people are confusing matters. Are you saying that you know better than farmers weekly, and people should take your advice over theirs. ? The law is rarely black and white on any matter including this one. Your advice could get people in trouble. DOGs, LIVESTOCK AND GAME (BASC).At sometime or another many farmers and landowners will have experienced problems with dogs on their land disturbing their livestock or chasing and attacking game. It is a commonly held belief that a person has a right to shoot a dog if it is worrying livestock but this is not necessarily the case. Dogs are property and therefore capable of being stolen, damaged through injury, or destroyed by killing. Edited May 17, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Are you saying that you know better than farmers weekly, and people should take your advice over theirs. ? The law is rarely black and white on any matter including this one. Your advice could get people in trouble. DH is a member of the constabulary so yes, i would say he knows better than Farmers Weekly. I've yet to read anything of his that does not make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) DH is a member of the constabulary so yes, i would say he knows better than Farmers Weekly. I've yet to read anything of his that does not make sense. Being a member of the constabulary doesn't change anything the laws is what it is. Yes dogs can be shot under certain circumstances, everyone agrees with that. But there are certain conditions that have to be met by law as in most things. If most police officers don't know the law regarding firearms and don't care what they have being shot with, then they are not doing their job properly. They should care what it was shot with because they could be breaking the conditions of their FAC . Knowing he is a police officer just makes it more surprising he is giving out this sort of advice, shoot the dog it will be OK most police don't know the law. I've been involved in a few jobs where dogs have been shot for worrying livestock. Not once has the farmer been in trouble. Most police officers don't know much about firearms but they know farmers can shoot dogs worrying livestock. They don't care what with providing they have been humane and not hit anyone. Edited May 17, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee-kinsman Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 As title suggest had a dog in ewes and lambs today, no harm was done this time, I caught the owner and said if needs be I would shoot the dog if harm was done to stock or I felt harm was going to be done to stock. Here is my question, if push came to shove and I did have to shoot a dog and believe me I dont want to be in that situation would I break any terms on my firearms licence if I used a rifle? The last condition on my licence States the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans. Would I be covered if I shot a dog to protect stock, the way I read it I think I would but just thought I would check with the masses. I guess the owner wouldn't be too pleased by the situation so want to make sure I'm totally legal if a situation arose. The only way you would get away with it is if it was physically on the sheep/lamb at the time otherwise record it on your phone and call the police. Last year an German Shepherd had killed several lambs and sheep and was living wild in a large field. No one could safely get close to the dog and the police neglected to arrive after several deseperate phone calls. A bloke decided to shoot it with a .243, very clean kill and very humane and when it came to renewal there was a long discussion before the new cert was eventually granted. Thank fully there was enough evidence to prove that the measure to dispatch in such a way was very necessary and the only safe and reasonable option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Being a member of the constabulary doesn't change anything the laws is what it is. Yes dogs can be shot under certain circumstances, everyone agrees with that. But there are certain conditions that have to be met by law, as in most things. Indeed. Quite why people seem to think it's clear cut is beyond me. Perhaps they should read the BASC fact sheet if they don't believe the Farmers Weekly solicitor. https://www.google.com/url?q=https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php%3Fid%3D42&sa=U&ei=5OFYVYTeFIiwsAS9xYGQCg&ved=0CAQQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHbECewc5VKXoKxaiH3O4WkzS3-jA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 I Have just read the BASC fact sheet from the link above. It all seems pretty straight forward and changes nothing in my mind and my experience. You can't shoot anyone's dog just because it is near livestock, but if it is damaging property (livestock) and there is no other way it has to be done. All this talk about grey areas is IMHO twaddle. In the same way that we are expected to know the law about General licences the same applies to Dogs and livestock. If you don't know what you can and cannot shoot you shouldn't shoot it. If you can't bother to learn about such things then arguably you shouldn't be shooting live things and maybe it is best if you stay on Clay grounds and approved rifle ranges. Let us not have anymore criticism of DH by people who seem to show their ignorance of the subject they are posting about. If you are unsure don't get involved with the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) Indeed. Quite why people seem to think it's clear cut is beyond me. Perhaps they should read the BASC fact sheet if they don't believe the Farmers Weekly solicitor. https://www.google.com/url?q=https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php%3Fid%3D42&sa=U&ei=5OFYVYTeFIiwsAS9xYGQCg&ved=0CAQQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHbECewc5VKXoKxaiH3O4WkzS3-jA Charlie This whole topic confuses me, it clear cut as day light that if you have a dog rampaging and ripping lambs to pieces, or chasing in lamb ewes to exhaustion it needs to be dealt with, if shooting it is necessary, so be it. I'm not sure where the indiscretion is. The only risk is a civil action, the dog owner has offended, not the owner. The cited BASC info relates directly to using a firearm out of its conditions, it's ambiguous at best. Edited May 17, 2015 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Must admit i'm the same as last couple of posters, despite reading the links really don't see wot the problem is. As was probably said on the very 1st page it is a last resort and is a lot more straight forward if u use a shotgun rather than an FAC. Not really something u should be volanteering urself for and if ur not 100% sure u could get urself in trouble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coatesy75 Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 put seep wool in the dogs mouth . jobs a good one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Not really something u should be volanteeringurself for and if ur not 100% sure u could get urself in trouble This is exactly the point I have been trying to get across, which is not helped by the sort of daft, irresponsible post by Mr coatsey below putseep wool in the dogs mouth . jobs a good one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 If your interested read The Animal Act 1971, Chapter 22, Section 9 and The Dogs (Protection Of Livestock) Act 1953, Chapter 28. It's in black and white for you. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 If your interested read The Animal Act 1971, Chapter 22, Section 9 and The Dogs (Protection Of Livestock) Act 1953, Chapter 28. It's in black and white for you. Harry Me, I know it verse for verse having paid a fortune for my legal team to defend me in court after a complete pillock spent his life savings trying to prosecute me for shooting his nasty sheep worrying pet dog. Hence my advice to people to keep out of it if they are not your sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I can understand your worries having been on the receiving end however I would not hesitate to apply the rights given to us in these acts if the situation demanded it. It's all about knowing your powers and rights. If you know your subject and apply the law correctly then you should be fine. In a previous role I would have to justify my actions if I shot a person. I'm confident to do that with a dog if needed but I understand not everyone is in the same boat. Did you win your case and did you get your costs awarded? I assume it was a private prosecution. If so did the police and CPS say why the didn't want to run with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Harry It was indeed a private prosecution, as you have said previously, the police, particularly in rural areas, fully understand and are sympathetic in such situations. In my case the dog's owner, a visitor to the area, did all he could to achieve a successful prosecution wheeling out an assortment "bunny hugging" experts and throwing money at his legal team. Fortunately, my actions were defensible and he failed, but as with all things court related the costs I was awarded did not cover my expenses. As a sheep farmer I would not hesitate to do it again, but the point of my previous posts on this thread is to warn those who are not farmers, but merely someone with permission to shoot vermin, contemplating taking such an action is to think twice and be aware that they could end up in court defending their actions. Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Well done to you. If I were not the land owner or farmer I would want to know that I would be 100% supported by them. Having said that I could not stand by and watch an uncontrolled dog ripping sheep apart. did you have any problems with the police after and did they have any issue with what shotgun, rifle, cartridge, home load you shot it with and if shooting a dangerously out of control dog was specified on your ticket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I had no problems whatsoever with the police or firearms licensing. I have for years ensured that my FAC conditions reflect every possible contingency I could/can think of and I must say the couple of counties I have dealt with have always been understanding, helpful and accommodating. My certificate was so worded........... "The firearms and ammunition shall be used also for shooting dogs which are worrying livestock on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot". "The firearms and ammunition shall be used also in connection with the humane killing of animals". C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) Dirty Harry, on 18 May 2015 - 12:25 AM, said: If your interested read The Animal Act 1971, Chapter 22, Section 9 and The Dogs (Protection Of Livestock) Act 1953, Chapter 28. It's in black and white for you. Harry And as I and others have said, it's not black and white and few laws are I thought you being in the police would know. The post bellow proves that to be the case. Yes he won on that occasion but it cost him time hassle and money plus they were his sheep. In this case they are not even his sheep, but if he feels the need to shoot a dog go for it, it won't cost me anything. One other point if someone caught me as it was put, and threatened to shoot my dog who wasn't even the land owner, I would be reporting him to the police for threatening behaviour. In a previous role I would have to justify my actions if I shot a person. A bit dramatic. Me, I know it verse for verse having paid a fortune for my legal team to defend me in court after a complete pillock spent his life savings trying to prosecute me for shooting his nasty sheep worrying pet dog. Hence my advice to people to keep out of it if they are not your sheep. Edited May 18, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Like I said. don't get involved. That is unless your life is so boring and you fancy some stress from court proceedings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 And as I and others have said, it's not black and white and few laws are I thought you being in the police would know. Your talking absolute rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 And as I and others have said, it's not black and white and few laws are I thought you being in the police would know. The post bellow proves that to be the case. Yes he won on that occasion but it cost him time hassle and money plus they were his sheep. In this case they are not even his sheep, but if he feels the need to shoot a dog go for it, it won't cost me anything. One other point if someone caught me as it was put, and threatened to shoot my dog who wasn't even the land owner, I would be reporting him to the police for threatening behaviour. A bit dramatic. I think that says more about u thou. The OP explained that earlier and most likely a mis type/communication thing due to it being the internet U honestly think it is ok for ur dogs to give the sheep a 'wee chase' but would get upset if someone's a bit rude to u and tells u off about it and warns u off the future consequences. Most responsible dog owners would be so ashamed and to busy apologising rather than thinking about making a complaint If 1 of my dogs worried sheep i would be borrowing the gun to shoot it myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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