Passionforangling Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I have searched the dog forums on here and not found any discussion on these so would appreciate any thoughts/ advice on the use of these collars ( sometimes called pinch collars I believe) To set the scene..... My daughter lives on Anglesey and has an 18 month old fox red who she has had some difficulties with regarding him pulling on a conventional slip lead to the extent that she was finding it difficult to control him consistently. She takes her dog to a trainer on Anglesey who is very experienced in gun dog training and has also worked with the police, training their dogs so has pretty good credentials for training I think. Anyway, this collar has certainly had the desired effect and her dog doesn't pull at all when he is on this collar. On a recent visit I went to see the trainer take his class with my daughters dog and was impressed with what I saw and mentioned that my 6 month old pulls a bit on a slip lead and I'm not sure how to combat it. He offered to have a look at him and so the next day I took Bailey along for him to see. As we walked through the field to the training ground, good as gold Bailey was pulling a bit on the lead, not excessive, but certainly not slack, and his head was down sniffing in the grass which is to be expected in a new environment I suppose. The trainer said he would show me the prong collar on Bailey so showed me the correct way to use it and fit it and the results were, to be honest, amazing. Within seconds he was walking on a loose lead, head up and tail wagging. Because of the instant success I bought one off him and have used it at home with the same results but in an ideal world I'd like him to do the same on a slip lead, especially when he is old enough to go shooting. So my questions are.... 1) should I abandon the prong collar and persevere with a slip lead ? 2) will the prong collar, if used over the next few weeks educate Bailey enough not to require it permanently? Although these collars look pretty frightening I do think that if the dog is not pulling then it's doing no harm long term to him, probably better than pulling on a slip lead. Be good to hear the views of those more experienced in dog trying than me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRobin Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I have searched the dog forums on here and not found any discussion on these so would appreciate any thoughts/ advice on the use of these collars ( sometimes called pinch collars I believe) To set the scene..... My daughter lives on Anglesey and has an 18 month old fox red who she has had some difficulties with regarding him pulling on a conventional slip lead to the extent that she was finding it difficult to control him consistently. She takes her dog to a trainer on Anglesey who is very experienced in gun dog training and has also worked with the police, training their dogs so has pretty good credentials for training I think. Anyway, this collar has certainly had the desired effect and her dog doesn't pull at all when he is on this collar. On a recent visit I went to see the trainer take his class with my daughters dog and was impressed with what I saw and mentioned that my 6 month old pulls a bit on a slip lead and I'm not sure how to combat it. He offered to have a look at him and so the next day I took Bailey along for him to see. As we walked through the field to the training ground, good as gold Bailey was pulling a bit on the lead, not excessive, but certainly not slack, and his head was down sniffing in the grass which is to be expected in a new environment I suppose. The trainer said he would show me the prong collar on Bailey so showed me the correct way to use it and fit it and the results were, to be honest, amazing. Within seconds he was walking on a loose lead, head up and tail wagging. Because of the instant success I bought one off him and have used it at home with the same results but in an ideal world I'd like him to do the same on a slip lead, especially when he is old enough to go shooting. So my questions are.... 1) should I abandon the prong collar and persevere with a slip lead ? 2) will the prong collar, if used over the next few weeks educate Bailey enough not to require it permanently? Although these collars look pretty frightening I do think that if the dog is not pulling then it's doing no harm long term to him, probably better than pulling on a slip lead. Be good to hear the views of those more experienced in dog trying than me I BET IT DOES Take the damn thing off and Bin It. ~ Not a Constructive Reply . BUT a Humane One Are you For Real !! Edited ~~ Had to remove my true opinions !!! Edited June 24, 2015 by RedRobin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Bought one of these collars 20 odd years ago. I had a pit bull at the time with exactly the same problem as yours. Used the collar twice, after that just a normal dog lead, worked for me, I've never used it since, it's still hanging up in the shed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James1983 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 +1 on redrobin's reply!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckandswing Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I have to be honest, it looks like a medieval torture device. Certainly wouldn't be going on my dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Don't have any experience of prong collars so can't comment per se, but fair play to the OP for posting and asking what seems to be a frank and genuine question on a somewhat divisive topic. Perhaps we could adopt the same approach and try to give him constructive advice instead of getting hot under the collar about it (no pun intended). Just a thought, PW'ers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I am happy to give him some constructive advice. Get rid of it and hang your head in shame. Try using on your own neck to give you some indication of what it actually feels like. I give the OP full marks for his frank post and 10/10 for stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) Its more common among HPR and pointers, they do look pretty brutal/barbaric i think it is now allowed to use one on ur pointer/setter during a Field Trial when its on a lead before/after its run approved by the KC which is surprising. Personally i dinae really believe in them BUT they may be a last resort for real problem pullers when all else has failed but i seriously doubt a lab would fall into the category, just needs the right training, it sounds to me like that is his go to technique for any dog that pulls as i take it he never tried anything else with ur's? Would not think a lab is a breed that would warrant 1 as they really try to please u, but some hpr/pointer or possibly bull terrier guard dog breeds i can see a need but it is really a failure on ur part to train it right in first place I would say to find urself a different trainer does seem very old school. For a 6 month old lab there is no way i'd ever think about using 1 on it. There is loads of other techniques that should work, from putting ur sip lead in a figure of 8 over dogs nose (but be gentle with it), keeping slip lead very high on dogs neck possibly catching its lug in there(another hpr favourite althou the ' dog whisper' does the exact same with pulling dogs) to treats, changing direction and speed, waving a small stick in front of it's nose as u walk And most importantly plenty of praise when doing well but only when in correct position and #### (probably not the right word) the INSTANT it moves out of heel position Not about to condone or justify using 1 esp in the circumstances given by OP but they do have uses in extreme cases if used correctly, is it any more cruel than someone battering the dog over head with a stick or kicking the dog to get back into heel position for the rest of its life For the OP i'd find a real gundog trainer and tell ur son to aswell, very surprised any trainer would reccommend that to anyone without trying everything else first Edited June 24, 2015 by scotslad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacker Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Try reward based training, far kinder and you will build a stronger bond with your dog. It takes patience on your part, trust me, but it's far kinder to your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I have had a fair number of German Shepherds and Akitas, but have never had to use a barbaric collar, hit one with a stick or kicked one. OP needs to find a new trainer or seriously consider whether he is fit to own a dog. Edited June 24, 2015 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marki Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 They are effective and I've seen them used with good results but you must consider them as a final escalation, there is no going back. There are various head collars that are worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I have used the head halti type collars when I have rehomed a problem puller. They work very well and can usually soon be swapped back to a slip lead once they have got the idea what heel means. I have never used a prong collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 As Said, Use it on Yourself, I afraid its you that needs training.. No device of this nature should be on sale, if i see any in the shops , they will have a hell of a time keeping it on Sale. BIN IT.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEshooter Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Just had a google to what they look like. Holy ****, you actually let some ****** put that round your dogs neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wj939 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I find it hard to believe the trainer is worth visiting if he used this on your pup. Teach your dog to heel properly and have some patience In doing it with the slip lead. They have no place in gun dog training in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) Jeepers +2 on redrobin's comment! I only ever use slip leads on mine and other people's dogs - it's simply a case of teaching the dog the correct position to be in. Granted a prong collar might work but will that 'training' facilitate walking OFF the lead nicely as well? To be fair going to see a trainer often has a psychological effect, ie using gadgets like a prong collar which the OP would probably never want to use off his own back suddenly becomes ok because somebody they look up to has recommended / ok'd it, especially if the pupil is a real Novice. Edited June 25, 2015 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passionforangling Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 In reply, I did think carefully about my initial post and was going to pose the question hyperthetically but decided to relay my experience as it happened, maybe a mistake! Thank you for those who offered constructive comments like Andy135 but I have to say that comment like "are you for real", "try using it on your own neck" and " consider whether fit to own a dog" upset me because the insinuation is that I don't care for my dog which could be not further from the truth. I'm sure all of us on here only want the best for our dogs. Before buying the dog I did as much research as I could on line and on this site. I purchased all the materials by Pippa Mattinson and have found what she writes to be very informative and agreed totally with her views on reward based training which I am following. My reason for posing the question was to get some helpful comments and after buying the collar the first thing I did when I got home from Anglesey was to add a couple of links and put it round my neck to see what it felt like. I also had previously read about the dangers to a dog of pulling on a slip lead so I had already tried that round my neck as well to give me some idea of the force needed to correct a dog without damaging its neck. No, I'm not into bondage or anything but that's what I did as part of my education into gun dog training. I was surprised how dramatic even a smallish pull on a slip lead can feel but I'm not sure how different a dogs neck is to ours but it certainly gave me a feel for the discomfort a tug on a 12mm lead can feel like. If you haven't tried it yourself I would suggest you do; it surprised me. Like I say, I'm trying to train him using a reward based approach but thought that this collar might just be needed a couple of times to educate him not to pull. Don't get me wrong, he isn't pulling my arms out of their sockets! I was just struggling a bit to maintain a slack lead so having seen this collar being used and fitted by a trainer/ gamekeeper with 30 years experience I thought I would try it. I won't be going to this trainer again because I live in Warwickshire and he's in Anglesey but I do plan to take Bailey to gun dog training closer to home, starting in the next month or so. I appreciate the emotive nature of the post and the Google images do look unpleasant ( incidentally none of the images on Google look like the collar I bought) and as I said in my original post I was hoping that just a couple of trips with the collar might prevent a problem later on. I am happy to enter into constructive discussion on this topic and ways to improve his early lead training but would hope that comments like those above insinuating I don't care for my dog are kept to yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 For sure a good device to stop the dugs pulling and they will soon learn that they only feel discomfort when they are pulling.You would think it had 6 inch nails on it going by the reactions of some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 To me, responding in a non emotive way, prong collars are a 'quick fix' and an unnecessary discomfort for the dog which could be taught to heel properly in the first place with patient and ongoing training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Passionforangling I have no issues with what your doing. You are being responsible in its use and have had an experienced trainer show you how is should be used. The negative replies seem to be from people who have not used them but have just seen the pictures and assume they are an instrument of torture. Good luck with you dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Isn't the world of the internet forum great fun?, a place where people with no idea can get expert advice from people with no idea. Don't you just love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Isn't the world of the internet forum great fun?, a place where people with no idea can get expert advice from people with no idea. Don't you just love it. Ootstanding fella. All time great statement right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) Isn't the world of the internet forum great fun?, a place where people with no idea can get expert advice from people with no idea. Don't you just love it. :yes: Have I used a prong collar no , would I if I needed too yes if all other avenues have been tried , its mearly another tool at our disposal . While it may be uncomfortable its not going to cut the dogs head off is it ? Edited June 25, 2015 by fenboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I hadn't even heard of a prong collar before, but looked them up and instantly thought "WOW - that looks horrific" but then after reading more I would presume that if it was used responsibly and carefully to show a dog discomfort if pulling, I am sure it's not the worst thing - but I would expect it would be a last ditch attempt type thing. But crikey, to look at pictures of them, makes you shudder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Sick cruel medieval devices used by people who shouldn't be allowed near a dog!!!! If you get a proper head collar it does the same job without the cruelty as everytime the animal pulls its head goes to the side and it goes in a circle. Any trainer who advocates the use of these devices should be avoided like the plague regardless of who or what he has trained before . Been around dogs my entire life , good and bad, old and new, rescue dogs and puppy's and never met anyone who has not been able to train a dog using the reward method and a head collar with a little patience thrown in. Next they will be telling you to use electric shock collars , my dad was an RSPCA inspector and a farmer and would rise from his grave and shoot me if he though I was resorting to the use of these things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.