20bore v 12bore fresh topic

[OJW]

I have researched this through older pigeon threads but was hoping there might be some fresh insight. Perhaps more people are now shooting a 20b or have reverted back to 12b.

 

My understanding is that to put it bluntly the average game shooter is putting himself at a disadvantage when using a 20b over a 12b. However that only becomes distinct when shooting at birds that are further out.

 

My research suggests that there is no difference in pattern size but that the disadvantage comes from there being less pellets in the pattern of a 20b. Is this correct?

 

If so, can that be countered by using one of the heavier loads? By heavy I mean 30g+ not 28g (not that I would and my bad back probably wouldn't allow anyway) thus putting more lead into the pattern? Just curious.

 

On that point, why do people say that using a heavy load defeats the point in shooting a 20b? Is it because 20b is meant to be a more elegant gun and if your putting that much through it it's not going to be pleasant to shoot? It's still going to be lighter to carry about between drives and handle well regardless.

 

Finally the 20b I am looking at is 32" and fixed choked to 3/4 and full. Will this mean the gun is useless for anything "average" unless I am a very good shot due to the fact it's not only a 20b but the patterns won't have opened properly making things even harder?

 

I appreciate that gun fit and putting the lead in the right place is what it comes down to at the end of the day.

 

Thank you.

Edited November 18, 2015 by OJW

[winnie&bezza]

Here we go again!!! I can't really add much to your question as I bought a 20 earlier in the year but just haven't shot it enough. But I can say they are a joy to carry and shoot. Regarding heavy loads it's a case of, why put heavy loads through a 20 to match up to a 12? Just use a 12 then because you'll be getting a kicking from the 20 with 30g as they are lighter guns. People get them for ease of carry when walking around, less recoil and joy of shooting and if your a half decent shot then you can do with a 20 that can be done with a 12 within your normal ranges. Find a 21-25g shell that goes well with your gun and enjoy.

[neutron619]

My turn

 

It all depends on what you count as "ordinary game shooting".

If you assume good gun fit and an ability to shoot either (or any gauge) to the same level, then for most of us, in most cases, the size of the tube will make no difference whatsoever, with the possible exception of something as small as a .410.

The simple fact is that you need a certain pattern density (smaller birds need a higher density; larger birds need lower density) where the pellets have sufficient energy to penetrate the vitals of the quarry and kill it (smaller birds need lower energy - so smaller pellets; larger birds need higher energy - so bigger pellets).

As you know, these two factors are in opposition and the usual practice is to achieve the best balance between the two for the quarry in question. If one simply can't get enough pellets of the right size in the pattern, one increases the load - an excess of pellets will not hurt, except in terms of recoil.

Whether or not the old Eley handbook was right or not is a matter open for debate, but most of the received knowledge says you need somewhere between 120 and 140 pellets in the standard 30" diameter pattern to kill most small and medium birds. Geese and large ducks require fewer pellets in that circle - perhaps 70-90 for geese and 90-120 for the ducks.

Allowing for some variation in other relevant factors, it would be reasonable to assume that - in energy terms - #7's will kill small birds out to 40 yards, #6's to somewhere around 50 yards and #5's and bigger to some point beyond. I stress that that's not to say that the pattern will be sufficient for any given cartridge to to the job.

If we say we need 120 pellets in the circle to do the job on an average small-to-medium bird, then we need 200 in the cartridge to start with if you're shooting them through a choke giving 60% performance at the range you're shooting. Traditionally, a half choke gives this performance at 40 yards, which is why I questioned the meaning of "ordinary game shooting": do we take most of our shots within 40 yards or are we high bird specialists who won't consider pulling the trigger on anything closer than 50 yards? I suspect for most of us, it's the former.

To return to the issue at hand, to get 200 pellets in the cartridge and 120 in the standard circle with a 60% choke, you need about 17g of #7, 21g of #6 or somewhere in the region of 26g of #5. The traditional "low brass" 20 gauge load of 24g (7/8oz) would therefore achieve this minimum pattern density with #7 or #6 shot and get very close to it with #5.

You'll notice that I haven't really mentioned the gauge of any of these theoretical guns and cartridges. The reason is simple - if you've got enough pellets in the air and your choke will give the minimum performance required at the range you're shooting, the size of the tube makes no noticeable difference.

The traditional 16- and 12-gauge "low brass" loads of 28g (1oz) and 32g (1 1/8oz) under the same conditions described above would allow the use of #5 shot whilst still retaining the requisite pattern density, but since this higher energy is considered generally unnecessary for birds as close as 40 yards, the bigger cartridges and tubes offer no great advantage at the expense of higher recoil.

We can therefore conclude that for all "normal" shooting ranges, a 20 gauge with an appropriate-for-gauge load is at no disadvantage compared to a 12 gauge.

 

When people talk about there being no point in shooting heavy loads through a smaller gauge, this is what they mean. There is no disadvantage to using the traditional lighter loads - our forefathers had plenty of practice working out what worked and what didn't - and putting heavier loads through smaller tubes which tend to make for lighter guns tends to make for higher and even unacceptable recoil. The question should be not only be "what cartridge should I use?" but also "what gauge is appropriate for the load my quarry requires?"... As an aside, I no longer shoot a 12 gauge at pigeons - it's unnecessary.

For "beyond normal" ranges, stretching out to 50, 60, 70 or even 80 yards, the size of the tube starts to matter. Up to a point, one can stuff more and more larger shot into a cartridge of a given gauge and still keep it under the pressure limits, but there is only so far you can go.

A full choke might deliver 40-50% of a cartridge's shot into a 30" circle at 50 yards and perhaps 25% of it at 60 yards. Measuring anything beyond 60 yards tends to give wildly random values. If that's the case, then we need at least 240 pellets in the cartridge for 50 yard shooting and a colossal 480 pellets for a "sufficient" pattern at 60 yards. At these ranges, only #5 shot or bigger will do.

A 32g/#5 cartridge will achieve the requisite 50-yard performance, provided the choke and the shooter are up to it. However, that's a heavy load in a 20 gauge with a tall shot column - which doesn't help pattern performance - so at this point, switching over to a larger tube more suited to the load starts to make sense.

By the time you get out to 60 yards, even the 12 gauge won't really cut it. You'd need #5's at a minimum and really #4 is where it's at. To get a 120-pellets-in-the-circle pattern would take over 2oz of shot which makes shooting small and medium birds at this range somewhat dependent on luck - and possibly an 8 gauge gun. Yes, people do shoot 60 yard birds, but they can do this because shotgun patterns aren't usually equally dense across the whole pattern - rather, they have a "hot centre" and the higher density here allows a talented and accurate shooter to go beyond what ought to be the mathematical limit of their gun's ability.

Looking briefly in the other direction, the .410 is a gun ruined by the unavailability of cartridges for it. 14g of #7 through a half choke is quite sufficient for 30-yard shooting (e.g. decoying) and the much-loved Eley 18g "Extra Long", also in #7, will take it out to 40 yards at a pinch, just achieving the minimum density. However, finding these useful cartridges (as opposed, say, to the usual "you can have any shot size as long as it's #6" approach taken by most RFDs) and a .410 which patterns well is difficult - the long shot column makes for more deformed pellets and a higher likelihood of "blown" patterns. 14g of #7½ or #8 with restraint on the part of the shooter makes for a better bet, if you load them yourself.

In short, there is a point at which tube size will become a disadvantage, but even allowing for what people consider "minimally sufficient", the loads which you'd have to shoot to cross that line would be very light by most people's estimation.

Finally, unless you're shooting stupidly high birds, a 20 gauge is no disadvantage.

Hope some of that helps,

Adam.

 

Edit: couple of spelling corrections.

Edited November 18, 2015 by neutron619

[robbiep]

Advantage of a 20 : lighter gun.

 

Advantage of a 12 : slightly cheaper cartridges. Larger loads available.

 

I use a 20 for 95%+ of my shooting. Just a joy to carry compared to the lump that most 12s are.

All of my game shooting is done with a 20bore S/S, using cartridges from 25-30g, shot sizes 5-7.

[hoggysreels]

Ive both .. simple really .. if you only had the choice of one shotgun in either 12 or 20 bore .. its a 12 bore.

[dougall]

my view is 20g nice to use,slight disadvantage....cartridges cost bit more/non toxic choice worse....for game not much difference in effectiveness,interestingly have never seen a top shot on fitasc/sporting clays chose a 20g over a 12g..........

[Stonepark]

My turn

 

It all depends on what you count as "ordinary game shooting".

 

If you assume good gun fit and an ability to shoot either (or any gauge) to the same level, then for most of us, in most cases, the size of the tube will make no difference whatsoever, with the possible exception of something as small as a .410.

 

Thge simple fact is that you need a certain pattern density (smaller birds need a higher density; larger birds need lower density) where the pellets have sufficient energy to penetrate the vitals of the quarry and kill it (smaller birds need lower energy - so smaller pellets; larger birds need higher energy - so bigger pellets).

 

As you know, these two factors are in opposition and the usual practice is to achieve the best balance between the two for the quarry in question. If one simply can't get enough pellets of the right size in the pattern, one increases the load - an excess of pellets will not hurt, except in terms of recoil.

 

Whether or not the old Eley handbook was right or not is a matter open for debate, but most of the received knowledge says you need somewhere between 120 and 140 pellets in the standard 30" diameter pattern to kill most small and medium birds. Geese and large ducks require fewer pellets in that circle - perhaps 70-90 for geese and 90-120 for the ducks.

 

Allowing for some variation in other relevant factors, it would be reasonable to assume that - in energy terms - #7's will kill small birds out to 40 yards, #6's to somewhere around 50 yards and #5's and bigger to some point beyond. I stress that that's not to say that the pattern will be sufficient for any given cartridge to to the job.

 

If we say we need 120 pellets in the circle to do the job on an average small-to-medium bird, then we need 200 in the cartridge to start with if you're shooting them through a choke giving 60% performance at the range you're shooting. Traditionally, a half choke gives this performance at 40 yards, which is why I questioned the meaning of "ordinary game shooting": do we take most of our shots within 40 yards or are we high bird specialists who won't consider pulling the trigger on anything closer than 50 yards? I suspect for most of us, it's the former.

 

To return to the issue at hand, to get 200 pellets in the cartridge and 120 in the standard circle with a 60% choke, you need about 17g of #7, 21g of #6 or somewhere in the region of 26g of #5. The traditional "low brass" 20 gauge load of 24g (7/8oz) would therefore achieve this minumum pattern density with #7 or #6 shot and get very close to it with #5.

 

You'll notice that I haven't really mentioned the gauge of any of these theoretical guns and cartridges. The reason is simple - if you've got enough pellets in the air and your choke will give the minimum performance required at the range you're shooting, the size of the tube makes no noticeable difference.

 

The traditional 16- and 12-gauge "low brass" loads of 28g (1oz) and 32g (1 1/8oz) under the same conditions described above would allow the use of #5 shot whilst still retaining the requisite pattern density, but since this higher energy is considered generally unnecessary for birds as close as 40 yards, the bigger cartridges and tubes offer no great advantage at the expense of higher recoil.

 

We can therefore conclude that for all "normal" shooting ranges, a 20 gauge with an appropriate-for-gauge load is at no disadvantage compared to a 12 gauge.

 

When people talk about there being no point in shooting heavy loads through a smaller gauge, this is what they mean. There is no disadvantage to using the traditional lighter loads - our forefathers had plenty of practice working out what worked and what didn't - and putting heavier loads through smaller tubes which tend to make for lighter guns tends to make for higher and even unacceptable recoil. The question should be not only be "what cartridge should I use?" but also "what gauge is appropriate for the load my quarry requires?"... As an aside, I no longer shoot a 12 gauge at pigeons - it's unneccesary.

 

For "beyond normal" ranges, stretching out to 50, 60, 70 or even 80 yards, the size of the tube starts to matter. Up to a point, one can stuff more and more larger shot into a cartridge of a given gauge and still keep it under the pressure limits, but there is only so far you can go.

 

A full choke might deliver 40-50% of a cartridge's shot into a 30" circle at 50 yards and perhaps 25% of it at 60 yards. Measuring anything beyond 60 yards tends to give wildly random values. If that's the case, then we need at least 240 pellets in the cartridge for 50 yard shooting and a colossal 480 pellets for a "sufficient" pattern at 60 yards. At these ranges, only #5 shot or bigger will do.

 

A 32g/#5 cartridge will achieve the requisite 50-yard performance, provided the choke and the shooter are up to it. However, that's a heavy load in a 20 gauge with a tall shot column - which doesn't help pattern performance - so at this point, switching over to a larger tube more suited to the load starts to make sense.

 

By the time you get out to 60yards, even the 12 gauge won't really cut it. You'd need #5's at a minimum and really #4 is where it's at. To get a 120-pellets-in-the-circle pattern would take over 2oz of shot which makes shooting small and medium birds at this range somewhat dependent on luck - and possibly and 8 gauge gun. Yes, people do shoot 60 yard birds, but they can do this because shotgun patterns aren't usually equally dense across the whole pattern - rather, they have a "hot centre" and the higher density here allows a talented and accurate shooter to go beyond what ought to be the mathematical limit of their gun's ability.

 

Looking breifly in the other direction, the .410 is a gun ruined by the unavailability of cartridges for it. 14g of #7 through a half choke is quite sufficient for 30-yard shooting (e.g. decoying) and the much-loved Eley 18g "Extra Long" will take it out to 40 yards at a pinch, just achieving the minimum density. However, finding these useful cartridges (as opposed, say to the usual "you can have any shot size as long as it's #6" approach taken by most RFDs) and a .410 which patterns well is difficult - the long shot column makes for more deformed pellets and a higher likelihood of "blown" patterns. 14g of #7½ or #8 with restraint on the part of the shooter makes for a better bet, if you load them yourself.

 

In short, there is a point at which tube size will become a disadvantage, but even allowing for what people consider "minimally sufficient", the loads which you'd have to shoot to cross that line would be very light by most people's estimation.

 

Finally, unless you're shooting stupidly high birds, a 20 gauge is no disadvantage.

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Adam.

=D>

[winnie&bezza]

My turn

 

It all depends on what you count as "ordinary game shooting".

 

If you assume good gun fit and an ability to shoot either (or any gauge) to the same level, then for most of us, in most cases, the size of the tube will make no difference whatsoever, with the possible exception of something as small as a .410.

 

Thge simple fact is that you need a certain pattern density (smaller birds need a higher density; larger birds need lower density) where the pellets have sufficient energy to penetrate the vitals of the quarry and kill it (smaller birds need lower energy - so smaller pellets; larger birds need higher energy - so bigger pellets).

 

As you know, these two factors are in opposition and the usual practice is to achieve the best balance between the two for the quarry in question. If one simply can't get enough pellets of the right size in the pattern, one increases the load - an excess of pellets will not hurt, except in terms of recoil.

 

Whether or not the old Eley handbook was right or not is a matter open for debate, but most of the received knowledge says you need somewhere between 120 and 140 pellets in the standard 30" diameter pattern to kill most small and medium birds. Geese and large ducks require fewer pellets in that circle - perhaps 70-90 for geese and 90-120 for the ducks.

 

Allowing for some variation in other relevant factors, it would be reasonable to assume that - in energy terms - #7's will kill small birds out to 40 yards, #6's to somewhere around 50 yards and #5's and bigger to some point beyond. I stress that that's not to say that the pattern will be sufficient for any given cartridge to to the job.

 

If we say we need 120 pellets in the circle to do the job on an average small-to-medium bird, then we need 200 in the cartridge to start with if you're shooting them through a choke giving 60% performance at the range you're shooting. Traditionally, a half choke gives this performance at 40 yards, which is why I questioned the meaning of "ordinary game shooting": do we take most of our shots within 40 yards or are we high bird specialists who won't consider pulling the trigger on anything closer than 50 yards? I suspect for most of us, it's the former.

 

To return to the issue at hand, to get 200 pellets in the cartridge and 120 in the standard circle with a 60% choke, you need about 17g of #7, 21g of #6 or somewhere in the region of 26g of #5. The traditional "low brass" 20 gauge load of 24g (7/8oz) would therefore achieve this minumum pattern density with #7 or #6 shot and get very close to it with #5.

 

You'll notice that I haven't really mentioned the gauge of any of these theoretical guns and cartridges. The reason is simple - if you've got enough pellets in the air and your choke will give the minimum performance required at the range you're shooting, the size of the tube makes no noticeable difference.

 

The traditional 16- and 12-gauge "low brass" loads of 28g (1oz) and 32g (1 1/8oz) under the same conditions described above would allow the use of #5 shot whilst still retaining the requisite pattern density, but since this higher energy is considered generally unnecessary for birds as close as 40 yards, the bigger cartridges and tubes offer no great advantage at the expense of higher recoil.

 

We can therefore conclude that for all "normal" shooting ranges, a 20 gauge with an appropriate-for-gauge load is at no disadvantage compared to a 12 gauge.

 

When people talk about there being no point in shooting heavy loads through a smaller gauge, this is what they mean. There is no disadvantage to using the traditional lighter loads - our forefathers had plenty of practice working out what worked and what didn't - and putting heavier loads through smaller tubes which tend to make for lighter guns tends to make for higher and even unacceptable recoil. The question should be not only be "what cartridge should I use?" but also "what gauge is appropriate for the load my quarry requires?"... As an aside, I no longer shoot a 12 gauge at pigeons - it's unneccesary.

 

For "beyond normal" ranges, stretching out to 50, 60, 70 or even 80 yards, the size of the tube starts to matter. Up to a point, one can stuff more and more larger shot into a cartridge of a given gauge and still keep it under the pressure limits, but there is only so far you can go.

 

A full choke might deliver 40-50% of a cartridge's shot into a 30" circle at 50 yards and perhaps 25% of it at 60 yards. Measuring anything beyond 60 yards tends to give wildly random values. If that's the case, then we need at least 240 pellets in the cartridge for 50 yard shooting and a colossal 480 pellets for a "sufficient" pattern at 60 yards. At these ranges, only #5 shot or bigger will do.

 

A 32g/#5 cartridge will achieve the requisite 50-yard performance, provided the choke and the shooter are up to it. However, that's a heavy load in a 20 gauge with a tall shot column - which doesn't help pattern performance - so at this point, switching over to a larger tube more suited to the load starts to make sense.

 

By the time you get out to 60yards, even the 12 gauge won't really cut it. You'd need #5's at a minimum and really #4 is where it's at. To get a 120-pellets-in-the-circle pattern would take over 2oz of shot which makes shooting small and medium birds at this range somewhat dependent on luck - and possibly and 8 gauge gun. Yes, people do shoot 60 yard birds, but they can do this because shotgun patterns aren't usually equally dense across the whole pattern - rather, they have a "hot centre" and the higher density here allows a talented and accurate shooter to go beyond what ought to be the mathematical limit of their gun's ability.

 

Looking breifly in the other direction, the .410 is a gun ruined by the unavailability of cartridges for it. 14g of #7 through a half choke is quite sufficient for 30-yard shooting (e.g. decoying) and the much-loved Eley 18g "Extra Long" will take it out to 40 yards at a pinch, just achieving the minimum density. However, finding these useful cartridges (as opposed, say to the usual "you can have any shot size as long as it's #6" approach taken by most RFDs) and a .410 which patterns well is difficult - the long shot column makes for more deformed pellets and a higher likelihood of "blown" patterns. 14g of #7½ or #8 with restraint on the part of the shooter makes for a better bet, if you load them yourself.

 

In short, there is a point at which tube size will become a disadvantage, but even allowing for what people consider "minimally sufficient", the loads which you'd have to shoot to cross that line would be very light by most people's estimation.

 

Finally, unless you're shooting stupidly high birds, a 20 gauge is no disadvantage.

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Adam.

That's what I wanted to say haha.

[OJW]

Thank you all, and thanks Adam for the further information you messaged me personally. Very useful.

[snow white]

Here's my twopence 28grams through a 20 is still 28grams though a 12. And so on I only shot 20 with 28 grams for game why put 30 plus through one you might as well use a 12.

[OJW]

Here's my twopence 28grams through a 20 is still 28grams though a 12. And so on I only shot 20 with 28 grams for game why put 30 plus through one you might as well use a 12.

 

As I said, the gun would still be light to carry with quick handling regardless of the load through it. I was only speculating regarding whether a larger load would counter the lower numbers of pellets within a 20bores pattern. Thanks for your thoughts.

[6.5x55SE]

My turn

 

It all depends on what you count as "ordinary game shooting".

If you assume good gun fit and an ability to shoot either (or any gauge) to the same level, then for most of us, in most cases, the size of the tube will make no difference whatsoever, with the possible exception of something as small as a .410.

The simple fact is that you need a certain pattern density (smaller birds need a higher density; larger birds need lower density) where the pellets have sufficient energy to penetrate the vitals of the quarry and kill it (smaller birds need lower energy - so smaller pellets; larger birds need higher energy - so bigger pellets).

As you know, these two factors are in opposition and the usual practice is to achieve the best balance between the two for the quarry in question. If one simply can't get enough pellets of the right size in the pattern, one increases the load - an excess of pellets will not hurt, except in terms of recoil.

Whether or not the old Eley handbook was right or not is a matter open for debate, but most of the received knowledge says you need somewhere between 120 and 140 pellets in the standard 30" diameter pattern to kill most small and medium birds. Geese and large ducks require fewer pellets in that circle - perhaps 70-90 for geese and 90-120 for the ducks.

Allowing for some variation in other relevant factors, it would be reasonable to assume that - in energy terms - #7's will kill small birds out to 40 yards, #6's to somewhere around 50 yards and #5's and bigger to some point beyond. I stress that that's not to say that the pattern will be sufficient for any given cartridge to to the job.

If we say we need 120 pellets in the circle to do the job on an average small-to-medium bird, then we need 200 in the cartridge to start with if you're shooting them through a choke giving 60% performance at the range you're shooting. Traditionally, a half choke gives this performance at 40 yards, which is why I questioned the meaning of "ordinary game shooting": do we take most of our shots within 40 yards or are we high bird specialists who won't consider pulling the trigger on anything closer than 50 yards? I suspect for most of us, it's the former.

To return to the issue at hand, to get 200 pellets in the cartridge and 120 in the standard circle with a 60% choke, you need about 17g of #7, 21g of #6 or somewhere in the region of 26g of #5. The traditional "low brass" 20 gauge load of 24g (7/8oz) would therefore achieve this minimum pattern density with #7 or #6 shot and get very close to it with #5.

You'll notice that I haven't really mentioned the gauge of any of these theoretical guns and cartridges. The reason is simple - if you've got enough pellets in the air and your choke will give the minimum performance required at the range you're shooting, the size of the tube makes no noticeable difference.

The traditional 16- and 12-gauge "low brass" loads of 28g (1oz) and 32g (1 1/8oz) under the same conditions described above would allow the use of #5 shot whilst still retaining the requisite pattern density, but since this higher energy is considered generally unnecessary for birds as close as 40 yards, the bigger cartridges and tubes offer no great advantage at the expense of higher recoil.

We can therefore conclude that for all "normal" shooting ranges, a 20 gauge with an appropriate-for-gauge load is at no disadvantage compared to a 12 gauge.

 

When people talk about there being no point in shooting heavy loads through a smaller gauge, this is what they mean. There is no disadvantage to using the traditional lighter loads - our forefathers had plenty of practice working out what worked and what didn't - and putting heavier loads through smaller tubes which tend to make for lighter guns tends to make for higher and even unacceptable recoil. The question should be not only be "what cartridge should I use?" but also "what gauge is appropriate for the load my quarry requires?"... As an aside, I no longer shoot a 12 gauge at pigeons - it's unnecessary.

For "beyond normal" ranges, stretching out to 50, 60, 70 or even 80 yards, the size of the tube starts to matter. Up to a point, one can stuff more and more larger shot into a cartridge of a given gauge and still keep it under the pressure limits, but there is only so far you can go.

A full choke might deliver 40-50% of a cartridge's shot into a 30" circle at 50 yards and perhaps 25% of it at 60 yards. Measuring anything beyond 60 yards tends to give wildly random values. If that's the case, then we need at least 240 pellets in the cartridge for 50 yard shooting and a colossal 480 pellets for a "sufficient" pattern at 60 yards. At these ranges, only #5 shot or bigger will do.

A 32g/#5 cartridge will achieve the requisite 50-yard performance, provided the choke and the shooter are up to it. However, that's a heavy load in a 20 gauge with a tall shot column - which doesn't help pattern performance - so at this point, switching over to a larger tube more suited to the load starts to make sense.

By the time you get out to 60 yards, even the 12 gauge won't really cut it. You'd need #5's at a minimum and really #4 is where it's at. To get a 120-pellets-in-the-circle pattern would take over 2oz of shot which makes shooting small and medium birds at this range somewhat dependent on luck - and possibly an 8 gauge gun. Yes, people do shoot 60 yard birds, but they can do this because shotgun patterns aren't usually equally dense across the whole pattern - rather, they have a "hot centre" and the higher density here allows a talented and accurate shooter to go beyond what ought to be the mathematical limit of their gun's ability.

Looking briefly in the other direction, the .410 is a gun ruined by the unavailability of cartridges for it. 14g of #7 through a half choke is quite sufficient for 30-yard shooting (e.g. decoying) and the much-loved Eley 18g "Extra Long", also in #7, will take it out to 40 yards at a pinch, just achieving the minimum density. However, finding these useful cartridges (as opposed, say, to the usual "you can have any shot size as long as it's #6" approach taken by most RFDs) and a .410 which patterns well is difficult - the long shot column makes for more deformed pellets and a higher likelihood of "blown" patterns. 14g of #7½ or #8 with restraint on the part of the shooter makes for a better bet, if you load them yourself.

In short, there is a point at which tube size will become a disadvantage, but even allowing for what people consider "minimally sufficient", the loads which you'd have to shoot to cross that line would be very light by most people's estimation.

Finally, unless you're shooting stupidly high birds, a 20 gauge is no disadvantage.

Hope some of that helps,

Adam.

 

Edit: couple of spelling corrections.

To much mathematics and scientific " Bull Poop "

Now for the real world fact's

First I fall a long way short of being in the George Digweed class But I have shot a 20ga for 40 odd years and before we had to use Non Toxic shot I used my 20ga for 90% of my shooting including Coastal Wildfowling for Geese.

Now we have to use Non Toxic shot I don't use the 20ga on the Foreshore as much But only the other day I killed cleanly a Right an Left at Pink's with 1oz of Hevi Shot 4's after they been shot at 80-100 yrd away by a 10ga user !!!!! Means nothing apart from I placed my shot twice in the right place.

Pigeon shooting and Game shooting I use 15/16oz of lead 6.5 again I've never ever felt underguned or wished I had a 12ga.

My advice use what you shoot with best 12ga or 20ga and also the Load and shot size that suits your need's and skills as for Heavy loads Kicking like a Mule get your gun fitted and learn to mount it propally.

I've shot 1-1/4oz from a 20ga 1-7/8oz from a 12ga and 3-1/4oz from a 4ga and none kicked any worse than the other But have a wrong fitting 20ga and mount it wrong Yep even with light loads it will kick.

[neutron619]

To much mathematics and scientific " Bull Poop "

Now for the real world fact's

First I fall a long way short of being in the George Digweed class But I have shot a 20ga for 40 odd years and before we had to use Non Toxic shot I used my 20ga for 90% of my shooting including Coastal Wildfowling for Geese.

Now we have to use Non Toxic shot I don't use the 20ga on the Foreshore as much But only the other day I killed cleanly a Right an Left at Pink's with 1oz of Hevi Shot 4's after they been shot at 80-100 yrd away by a 10ga user !!!!! Means nothing apart from I placed my shot twice in the right place.

Pigeon shooting and Game shooting I use 15/16oz of lead 6.5 again I've never ever felt underguned or wished I had a 12ga.

My advice use what you shoot with best 12ga or 20ga and also the Load and shot size that suits your need's and skills as for Heavy loads Kicking like a Mule get your gun fitted and learn to mount it propally.

I've shot 1-1/4oz from a 20ga 1-7/8oz from a 12ga and 3-1/4oz from a 4ga and none kicked any worse than the other But have a wrong fitting 20ga and mount it wrong Yep even with light loads it will kick.

 

So help a purveyor of "bull poop" out of his misery will you?

 

Tell me exactly where it was - as I've missed it - that your "real world" experience disagreed with, contradicted or was otherwise more correct than my "bull poop" as you put it?

 

Oh. It didn't.

 

Which means, presumably that either your "real world" experience is just as much "bull poop" as my mathematical support for it, or that we're both in agreement that no-one using a 20 gauge should feel under-gunned.

 

Let's just check back...

 

Finally, unless you're shooting stupidly high birds, a 20 gauge is no disadvantage.

 

Pigeon shooting and Game shooting I use 15/16oz of lead 6.5 again I've never ever felt underguned or wished I had a 12ga.

 

Yup. We're in agreement.

 

Two perspectives, one opinion.

 

You must be feeling pretty silly to have tried to start an argument over a disagreement that didn't even exist, I'll bet.

 

Toodles.

[jbk]

Chuckle

[Guest cookoff013]

Neutron

 

Shotguns are easy to second guess.

Shotguns perform well with lots of shot.

 

Patterns need shot

 

Simple

Edited November 18, 2015 by cookoff013

[NickB65]

So....... to sum all the replies in a simple sentence....... If you are a competent shot with both then both will be as good as each other and only the weight of the gun will make a difference.

[6.5x55SE]

So help a purveyor of "bull poop" out of his misery will you?

 

Tell me exactly where it was - as I've missed it - that your "real world" experience disagreed with, contradicted or was otherwise more correct than my "bull poop" as you put it?

 

Oh. It didn't.

 

Which means, presumably that either your "real world" experience is just as much "bull poop" as my mathematical support for it, or that we're both in agreement that no-one using a 20 gauge should feel under-gunned.

 

Let's just check back...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup. We're in agreement.

 

Two perspectives, one opinion.

 

You must be feeling pretty silly to have tried to start an argument over a disagreement that didn't even exist, I'll bet.

 

Toodles.

Funny how the world spin's hey Adam. Was it not you who seeked my advice about !!!!!! .308 reloading !!!!!

My point was as stated or not propally explained Was far to many believe mathematics and scientific facts rather than getting out and shooting may it be Shotgun or Rifle.

Eg Stating 5 shot kills 10 yard further than 6 shot is indeed " Bull Poop " but if yourself and others believe it crack on Adam I know different.

Edited November 18, 2015 by 6.5x55SE

[6.5x55SE]

 

Shotguns perform well with lots of shot.

 

So your saying eg 20ga using a 1-1/2oz ( yes you can get them ) is far better than a 1-1/8oz !!!!!!!

or a 12ga using 2oz is better than a 1-1/2oz !!!!!!

[sitsinhedges]

Shotguns perform well with lots of shot.

 

So your saying eg 20ga using a 1-1/2oz ( yes you can get them ) is far better than a 1-1/8oz !!!!!!!

or a 12ga using 2oz is better than a 1-1/2oz !!!!!!

 

Have you got your menses or something

[neutron619]

Funny how the world spin's hey Adam. Was it not you who seeked my advice about !!!!!! .308 reloading !!!!!

My point was as stated or not propally explained Was far to many believe mathematics and scientific facts rather than getting out and shooting may it be Shotgun or Rifle.

Eg Stating 5 shot kills 10 yard further than 6 shot is indeed " Bull Poop " but if yourself and others believe it crack on Adam I know different.

 

I may very well have asked your advice on .308 reloading - to be honest, I can't recall doing so, but I may have done - but the nice thing about advice is that the person receiving it isn't under any obligation to pay any attention to it and can rather form their own conclusions. If, however, your point is that you were right about one thing and therefore you must be right about all other things, I'm afraid I'll simply say that I don't ask my doctor to fix my leaking radiators. You understand, I'm sure.

 

On the basis that it offends me that you're attempting to misquote me, I'll refer again to my earlier post:

 

...it would be reasonable to assume that - in energy terms - #7's will kill small birds out to 40 yards, #6's to somewhere around 50 yards and #5's and bigger to some point beyond...

 

I don't believe I was ever as definite as saying "#5 shot kills 10 yards further than #6 shot" as you'll see above. I was merely highlighting a general trend - a rule of thumb, if you like - relating to bigger shot retaining requisite energy further than smaller shot. I've highlighted the words which made clear that I wasn't delivering "fact" but rather a vague suggestion, in case you didn't spot them.

 

So your saying eg 20ga using a 1-1/2oz ( yes you can get them ) is far better than a 1-1/8oz !!!!!!!

or a 12ga using 2oz is better than a 1-1/2oz !!!!!!

 

Now this I find curious, since it's almost impossible to defend.

 

More shot will make for a better pattern with fewer gaps, so the obvious conclusion is that you're trying to argue against reality.

 

I'll skip the significant irony involved here.

 

I suppose what you mean though, is that the shot from a cartridge containing so much shot will have to be launched slower to stay within safe pressures. For what it's worth, I agree that putting 42g of shot down a 20 gauge is a ludicrous idea.

 

However, it's widely recognised, and has been for some time, that in spite of the modern trend for super-fast, 1500fps+ cartridges, the best patterns are actually achieved with shot launched more slowly. This may be why my ¼-choked 28 gauge throws patterns better than full with a nice, moderate 1200fps cartridge.

 

Taking note of the fact that the muzzle velocities of such heavy cartridges are significantly lower than more mainstream cartridges, you appear to be arguing that somehow, more pellets in the cartridge, thrown in a way more likely to produce good patterns, will produce poorer patterns than fewer pellets, thrown faster.

 

I believe we've just settled on our definition of "bull poop". I had been wondering.

[6.5x55SE]

I may very well have asked your advice on .308 reloading - to be honest, I can't recall doing so, but I may have done - but the nice thing about advice is that the person receiving it isn't under any obligation to pay any attention to it and can rather form their own conclusions. If, however, your point is that you were right about one thing and therefore you must be right about all other things, I'm afraid I'll simply say that I don't ask my doctor to fix my leaking radiators. You understand, I'm sure.

 

On the basis that it offends me that you're attempting to misquote me, I'll refer again to my earlier post:

 

 

 

I don't believe I was ever as definite as saying "#5 shot kills 10 yards further than #6 shot" as you'll see above. I was merely highlighting a general trend - a rule of thumb, if you like - relating to bigger shot retaining requisite energy further than smaller shot. I've highlighted the words which made clear that I wasn't delivering "fact" but rather a vague suggestion, in case you didn't spot them.

 

 

 

Now this I find curious, since it's almost impossible to defend.

 

More shot will make for a better pattern with fewer gaps, so the obvious conclusion is that you're trying to argue against reality.

 

I'll skip the significant irony involved here.

 

I suppose what you mean though, is that the shot from a cartridge containing so much shot will have to be launched slower to stay within safe pressures. For what it's worth, I agree that putting 42g of shot down a 20 gauge is a ludicrous idea.

 

However, it's widely recognised, and has been for some time, that in spite of the modern trend for super-fast, 1500fps+ cartridges, the best patterns are actually achieved with shot launched more slowly. This may be why my ¼-choked 28 gauge throws patterns better than full with a nice, moderate 1200fps cartridge.

 

Taking note of the fact that the muzzle velocities of such heavy cartridges are significantly lower than more mainstream cartridges, you appear to be arguing that somehow, more pellets in the cartridge, thrown in a way more likely to produce good patterns, will produce poorer patterns than fewer pellets, thrown faster.

 

I believe we've just settled on our definition of "bull poop". I had been wondering.

Really Well I bow to your Superiority and Vast Knowledge Adam

[6.5x55SE]

Have you got your menses or something

And your point is !!!!

[sitsinhedges]

And your point is !!!!

 

GROW UP!

[6.5x55SE]

GROW UP!

Kettle calling Pot Black don't you think !!!!!

[sitsinhedges]

Kettle calling Pot Black don't you think !!!!!

 

Idiot who doesn't know when to quit is what I think