leadbreakfast Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 See? This is where it all starts to go wrong. You simply don't know for certain that ex-layers 'WILL wander far and wide', nor that you'll get better returns. As I've stated many times, we haven't found this to be the case at all. They MAY wander, and they may not. You may get better returns and you may not. We were told not to bother with ex-layers as they would all disappear, but we took the chance as we have no time to rear poults. We have a cracking little shoot. We have also been told that if we feed anything other than wheat our birds will disappear. Again, we haven' t found that to be the case. No one knows for sure what will happen. Your birds may all disappear, then again they may not, no one can say for certain. If we had listened to all those people who told us we were doing it wrong we wouldn't have a shoot; as it is, we have a good shoot and are now faced with people telling we are still doing it wrong. All I can say to the OP, is cipher through all the advice and then make up your own mind and do what is within your capabilities, compromising where your options are limited, and take it from there. According to many on here we are doing it all wrong, but that isn't the case at all. Do it YOUR way and do what works for YOU. Do you tag your ex layers to see if your shooting your birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 It's has water yes two small ponds but there about 3 streams that run the full length of the ground. They tend to run all year but all be it slowly in the summer. Is it still worth digging out a new pond? Cheers rob Depending on ur area and how 'ducky' it is but definately worth having a closer look at ur ponds, amazing wot u can do with a chainsaw and some roundup and then getting a few of u with waders on and pulling rushes out by hand. Often a bit of hard work is all that is needed and saves getting diggers in etc Sitting on a decent flight pond is 1 of the best sports there is. As long as ur not immediately nieghboured by other shoots i'd be tempted to put a few feeders out the now, if u could get some out this wknd u could mibee have a wee walk round at christmas time and nearer the end of season. It might give u an idea of how birds might fly and wot sort of numbers the ground holds naturally, they really will wander for miles quite easily Depending on ur ground and ur nieghbouring shoots, if no shoots imediately next door that ur obviously going to pukk/poach birds off it might be worth instead of releasing birds just feed all throu the spriing. If ur only talking about releasing 100 ur probably expecting to shoot 30ish, often u could shoot that with out releasing (well atleast the 1st year) if u have a few resident hens all in good nick because of ur spring feeding u never know might raise enough young to provide a bit of sport if thats all u wnt and save ur cash to buy a small day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Do you tag your ex layers to see if your shooting your birds? No, we've never felt the need. My nephew and his mates did on their shoot one year. They all work full time also and felt ex-layers was the only way to go as they felt guilty putting out feeders without releasing birds of their own. They released 50 ex layers into the undergrowth, they had two woods, neither of which could be described as warm but do hold many Woodcock, no cover crops and they could only feed at weekends. The ground is described as 'medium heavy' with much marshland and two substantial ponds on which 100's of wildfowl congregate, from Canadas, Greylags(?), Snipe, Teal, Golden Eye and Mallard. That season they shot over 60 birds, none of which were tagged. Either the tags hadn't been put on properly, or the birds had wandered off, or they had been predated, or they had shot over 60 birds from their nearest neighbouring shoot which raise their birds from poults. Or possibly all of the above. Who knows? Or possibly more apt, who cares? Our nearest neighbouring shoot did tag their birds a few seasons ago. I'm not sure if their birds are ex-layers or raised from poults, but we shot three tagged birds that season, a fact one of our members took much delight in as he shoots as a guest on their shoot now and again. He not only took pic's of the tagged dead birds to text to the owner of the relevant shoot, but also removed the tags and returned them when next there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 In most cases if you tag ex layers you will soon find out its a waste of time. But what you said is spot on about putting them down so you have an excuse to feed your neighbours birds over👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 In most cases if you tag ex layers you will soon find out its a waste of time. See what I mean? Another expert whose not TOO sure about his facts ( 'most' cases ) but still can't resist the urge to criticise. But what you said is spot on about putting them down so you have an excuse to feed your neighbours birds over It isn't necessary to put down ex-layers to entice other birds over from another shoot. According to the experts on here those raised from poults don't stray, but now you're claiming they do? The same can be said about any birds, ex-layers or not. Many of our ex-layers lay eggs and we discover their broods all over the place in late spring and late summer, but I suppose we've probably enticed them over from another shoot also. Never mind eh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Scully these are not attacks on u or ur shoot or anything else (infact i was i had a shoot like that) but ur are in an amazingly lucky situation, i bet u could almost do anything u wanted on it and still shoot a high % return. But on probably the vast majority of shoots if u follwed how u run ur shoots ur birds would wander no matter wot age they were (poults or layers). The best shoots in the counrty don't shoot returns anything like ur's and they have tteams of full time keepers constantly doging birds back and probably got them on best of feed by hand/whistle. All shoots are different and different things will work, if u follow the norm/best practice advice atleast to start off u should get not too bad results and alter things from there. But just because something works for u does not mean it will work for anyone else or make it good advice, just as some best practice advice can be altered/bettered on a shoot by shoot basis, but generally won't be far away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 In most cases if you tag ex layers you will soon find out its a waste of time. See what I mean? Another expert whose not TOO sure about his facts ( 'most' cases ) but still can't resist the urge to criticise. But what you said is spot on about putting them down so you have an excuse to feed your neighbours birds over It isn't necessary to put down ex-layers to entice other birds over from another shoot. According to the experts on here those raised from poults don't stray, but now you're claiming they do? The same can be said about any birds, ex-layers or not. Many of our ex-layers lay eggs and we discover their broods all over the place in late spring and late summer, but I suppose we've probably enticed them over from another shoot also. Never mind eh. That's why most shoots around the country who shoot there own birds get 40%Some wander and loose some to predation ect. But all I'm saying is before telling folk to spend money on ex layers tag your birds and get facts. I have got permissions where I can put 50 down and get 100% return and not feed a grain but they wouldn't be my birds. Every time somebody talks about ex layers I think scully will be here soon to tell us about his 60% return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 How many of these ex layers are you releasing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nmb Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hi, Just noticed this thread and thought I ound share my experience. If I was starting from scratch I'd get a small amount of birds (100-200). Make a small pen in a central location from which your birds can spread. It's easy to get bogged down with amounts of birds, type of food etc however there is loads of things that can be done to improve shoots that cost nothing. Some of the things we do is cutting rides for beaters to get through we also used to pick up left over straw after the harvest and spread in rides to get places for birds to peck at. The key is to watch where your birds want to be in your first season and take that onboard when expanding the following one. A few well placed homemade spring feeders will do wonders and and won't cost a huge amount. We always feed wheat in our hoppers but it's worth asking a local farmer for left over grain from the dryers etc. using this in your straw rides and duck ponds is a cheap way of attracting birds and keeping them interested. On the pen front we have started to use IBC tanks on stands which supply water into automatic drinkers. This is great as saves manually filling them every day or even more in hot weather. Sometimes it will seem like a waste of time, however when it all clicks you will be proud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 But just because something works for u does not mean it will work for anyone else or make it good advice, I have never claimed even once that the advice I am giving is better advice than that given by others, nor that it is the way to go. Not once. All I have done is give my side of the story based on personal experience in the face of all those who have told others not to bother with ex-layers. There is much advice on here regarding what to do and what not to do, and I have not once done that. When asked to give an opinion on ex-layers I have given it; and it is not an opinion based on ex-layers as opposed to poults as we have never raised poults. Any ex-layers which have broods ( and there are many as ex-layers don't become ex-layers overnight ) are left to their own devices as at that point they are out of the pen and living in the open and as such with the exception of a bit of predator control, we play no further part until we start feeding again. Not once have I said that the way we do it is the right way, only that all the advice against ex-layers isn't exactly written in stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 That's why most shoots around the country who shoot there own birds get 40% I can't really understand what the problem is...would you be happier if we only returned 40%? We are shooting the birds on our land, what else are we supposed to do? Would you be happier if we didn't have a shoot at all because we can't raise from poults? What do you suggest we do? Some wander and loose some to predation ect. So now you're saying this applies to birds raised from poults as well as ex-layers? I thought that was always the case. I have given a perfect example of such in the case of my nephews shoot. They possibly lost 50 ex-layers and gained 60 raised from poults in return, and their neighbour lost 60 and gained 50...possibly. But all I'm saying is before telling folk to spend money on ex layers tag your birds and get facts. Speaking of facts, show me a single example of when I have told anyone to 'spend money on ex-layers' as opposed to poults. As far as I'm aware I haven't. Yet again, all I have done is given my side of the story based on my own personal experience. The only facts I have stated are those based on my own experience as someone who buys ex-layers. If all the birds we are shooting are coming onto our land from other shoots (which raise from poults and feed wheat, as opposed to us who have ex-layers and feed barley) as you are clearly implying, then again, what are we to surmise from that? Why would we ( or should we ) tag our birds? I'm not in this to prove a point, unlike others it would seem. I'm only trying to tell others of my experiences with ex-layers. What is the problem you and others apparently have with that? I have got permissions where I can put 50 down and get 100% return and not feed a grain but they wouldn't be my birds. So what is that supposed to prove .....that even poult raised birds are just as likely to wander as ex-layers? Because that is what you've just claimed, whether you realise it or not. I know someone who doesn't feed or put down birds but shoots around 80 or so birds a season, so what? According to our supplier there is a shoot who buy from them 8,000 ex-layers each season...so what? Every time somebody talks about ex layers I think scully will be here soon to tell us about his 60% return. Every time somebody talks about ex-layers the nay sayers say nay, and then have a pop at me when I say it isn't necessarily as they say. It was 80%, not 60; our worst return has been 42% if I recall. How many of these ex layers are you releasing We release 125 of 'these ex-layers' each season. As I've already said, they keep laying and we find broods frequently until the grass/crops have grown to the extent we don't see anything, so the final number is anyones guess. It's a walked up rough shoot ( maybe a couple of drives dependant on how many guns and dogs we have ) over around 600 acres in all. First day we shot 32, second was 8 as we gave up at lunchtime due to the weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadbreakfast Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Your shoot sounds good and I'm not saying it isn't. What I'm pointing out Like your nethew did if he didn't have a neighbour releasing poults he would of got very bad returns. Poults hold alot better but they still wander that's why it's called game (keeping) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Your shoot sounds good and I'm not saying it isn't. What I'm pointing out Like your nethew did if he didn't have a neighbour releasing poults he would of got very bad returns. Well that depends on whether his neighbour released more than 60 poults. Our landowners Mam used to hatch and rear on occasion as few as 30. Poults hold alot better but they still wander that's why it's called game (keeping) I know what it's called but to be honest I no longer care. I'll no longer be posting on the topic of ex-layers. Let others decide for themselves. We did. Why should I care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 5, 2015 Report Share Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) As an aside,as far as I'm aware, the term 'keeping' in gamekeeping doesn't refer to the literal sense of 'keeping' birds as in stopping them from wandering, but rather than to tend and care for them, as in housekeeping, beekeeping and greenkeeping, unless your lawn has a tendency to wander of course. Anyhow, that's it from me. Edited December 5, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted December 5, 2015 Report Share Posted December 5, 2015 As an aside,as far as I'm aware, the term 'keeping' in gamekeeping doesn't refer to the literal sense of 'keeping' birds as in stopping them from wandering, but rather than to tend and care for them, as in housekeeping, beekeeping and greenkeeping, unless your lawn has a tendency to wander of course. Anyhow, that's it from me. Somewhat like poultrykeeping. Infact there are some round here who refeer to our local keepers as chicken keepers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beagle boy Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Thanks for the replies lads all information is good information so thanks for taking the time to explain what you do on your shoots. I think as said above I'll start small and work my way up and get to see where the birds want to be. Cheers rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennett Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 It is never easy starting from scratch, I did it 2 years ago. We are still fine tuning, and finding out what does and doesn't work. Yes it's hard work, but if you enjoy it who cares? Get stuck in and see what you can do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlander Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 And never take your eye off the ball when it comes to thinning out the foxes. Outlander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beagle boy Posted December 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 There are a hell of a lot of foxes about lately I've shot 20 odd this month. So I think many nights will be spent on foxes Cheers rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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