"Other Lawful Quarry" - is it still a thing?

[Benthejockey]

Lawful -

Conforming to, permitted by, or recognized by law or rules.

 

Legal -

Permitted by law.

 

Using lawful instead of legal actually opens up a bit of wiggle room for the potential to shoot badgers as with certain conditions it is lawful to shoot badgers but you need licenses and training and to have your license conditioned for shooting badgers so it's almost pointless. All of my CF guns are conditioned for vermin, fox, deer and AOLQ.

 

Just to hijack the thread a little I think the whole system needs rebooting and normalising to remove the vagaries of the current system. Nothing too complicated. A minimum requirement of X many acres for a CF rifle. A similar but smaller requirement for RF. 5 years using a RF before you can upgrade to a CF. ALQ not ALOQ, if you're going to shoot badgers, golden eagles or unicorns you're going to do it regardless of what your ticket says and if you're competent to shoot yo should be trusted to use that gun in an appropriate manner for the appropriate quarry. To get an initial FAC spend a morning on a range learning basic safety and fire a box of bullets to show a degree of competence. Possibly a similar morning when you want a CF. Think about it if you can get a passport turned around in 3 weeks and a driving license in a similar time it shows there's got to be a real problem with our system. I find it odd that you need a mentor foe a CF not a RF. Typically an entry level gun a .22 is as dangerous as a 308 because a novice is likely to take a riskier shot than a seasoned shooter with a cannon. I know I was amazed at the penetration of my .17hmr when I first started shooting.

[Scully]

 

Scully, I'm not trying to make an issue of it but that is a common mistake. The L stands for LAWFUL, not Legal.

 

Of course it does; I stand corrected. My apologies.

[Scully]

Just to hijack the thread a little I think the whole system needs rebooting and normalising to remove the vagaries of the current system. Nothing too complicated. A minimum requirement of X many acres for a CF rifle. A similar but smaller requirement for RF. 5 years using a RF before you can upgrade to a CF. ALQ not ALOQ, if you're going to shoot badgers, golden eagles or unicorns you're going to do it regardless of what your ticket says and if you're competent to shoot yo should be trusted to use that gun in an appropriate manner for the appropriate quarry. To get an initial FAC spend a morning on a range learning basic safety and fire a box of bullets to show a degree of competence. Possibly a similar morning when you want a CF. Think about it if you can get a passport turned around in 3 weeks and a driving license in a similar time it shows there's got to be a real problem with our system. I find it odd that you need a mentor foe a CF not a RF. Typically an entry level gun a .22 is as dangerous as a 308 because a novice is likely to take a riskier shot than a seasoned shooter with a cannon. I know I was amazed at the penetration of my .17hmr when I first started shooting.

With respect that seems a lot more complicated than the present system for no gain to either public safety or the applicant. Range time and instruction comes with a cost on top of increased fees plus whatever your GP charges.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Scully

[Benthejockey]

I didn't mention GP's. It would possibly be more complicated initially to get going but once it was going it would certainly be quicker. What's a morning on a range cost? I think I paid £50 which include using their gun and the ammo 10 years ago at Minsterley. I sat for an hour or two with one of the lads there and emptied a box of bullets, talked about safety and backstops and came away from there with a certificate of competence which means as much as a letter from a mentor in reality.

 

Think about it a form filling exercise with no room for interpretation or malignment from a copper that doesn't like certain calibres, or feo's that don't understand the capabilities of certain calibres. A process that follows home office guide lines and only requires two things a background check and a rubber stamp of the CC. I would happily pay more for a ticket that extends for a longer period, follows a more straightforward protocol and provides a faster turn around.

 

Imagine you go to your local range and spend £50 emptying a box of rimfire bullets into a target and get the all clear safety wise, you fill in a form similar to a driving license app with your referees to confirm you're not a nutter, enclose a copy of the certificate and within a month you've had your visit and your ticket is back in your possession. Even better they move to a driving license system and give you a card to hold rather than paper forms. That has got to be a better system than the current one.

[Redgum]

Would it be true to say that multi conditioning of species/calibre was here before AOLQ, its all I have known so it doesn't bother me any, would I be a trouble maker buy saying that AOLQ is so highly prized as its an easier way into shooting deer without proof of experience, mentoring or qualification. Yes I repeat myself once again but its good to know a little of the law and stalking techniques ( especially waiting before rushing up to a shot animal) in regard to shooting deer, with out some sort of check on experience or forced instruction , just to have AOLQ would we all head for the bookshop to read up on the subject, I don't think so.

 

As for the badger thing, well me and Savhmr must correspond with different members of the team, I'm guessing badgers are mentioned as we can shoot em in our county with the correct licensing.

[Redgum]

I didn't mention GP's. It would possibly be more complicated initially to get going but once it was going it would certainly be quicker. What's a morning on a range cost? I think I paid £50 which include using their gun and the ammo 10 years ago at Minsterley. I sat for an hour or two with one of the lads there and emptied a box of bullets, talked about safety and backstops and came away from there with a certificate of competence which means as much as a letter from a mentor in reality.

 

Think about it a form filling exercise with no room for interpretation or malignment from a copper that doesn't like certain calibres, or feo's that don't understand the capabilities of certain calibres. A process that follows home office guide lines and only requires two things a background check and a rubber stamp of the CC. I would happily pay more for a ticket that extends for a longer period, follows a more straightforward protocol and provides a faster turn around.

 

Imagine you go to your local range and spend £50 emptying a box of rimfire bullets into a target and get the all clear safety wise, you fill in a form similar to a driving license app with your referees to confirm you're not a nutter, enclose a copy of the certificate and within a month you've had your visit and your ticket is back in your possession. Even better they move to a driving license system and give you a card to hold rather than paper forms. That has got to be a better system than the current one.

 

Shooting at a range with a target in front of a backstop may give you muzzle awareness and rifle skills, but safety in the field, better than nothing I suppose.

[Dekers]

Would it be true to say that multi conditioning of species/calibre was here before AOLQ, its all I have known so it doesn't bother me any, would I be a trouble maker buy saying that AOLQ is so highly prized as its an easier way into shooting deer without proof of experience, mentoring or qualification. Yes I repeat myself once again but its good to know a little of the law and stalking techniques ( especially waiting before rushing up to a shot animal) in regard to shooting deer, with out some sort of check on experience or forced instruction , just to have AOLQ would we all head for the bookshop to read up on the subject, I don't think so.

 

As for the badger thing, well me and Savhmr must correspond with different members of the team, I'm guessing badgers are mentioned as we can shoot em in our county with the correct licensing.

 

I'm not quite following that, can you elaborate please?

 

Are you suggesting with the right condition on your FAC you can hunt them, or are you saying with DEFRAS/Natural Englands blessing you can shoot them.

 

We can all do that but, there are specific legal requirements/calibres etc for Badger anyway, and the recent cull overspecified the legal requirements of badger calibres!

Edited February 4, 2016 by Dekers

[Savhmr]

Would it be true to say that multi conditioning of species/calibre was here before AOLQ, its all I have known so it doesn't bother me any, would I be a trouble maker buy saying that AOLQ is so highly prized as its an easier way into shooting deer without proof of experience, mentoring or qualification. Yes I repeat myself once again but its good to know a little of the law and stalking techniques ( especially waiting before rushing up to a shot animal) in regard to shooting deer, with out some sort of check on experience or forced instruction , just to have AOLQ would we all head for the bookshop to read up on the subject, I don't think so.

 

As for the badger thing, well me and Savhmr must correspond with different members of the team, I'm guessing badgers are mentioned as we can shoot em in our county with the correct licensing.

 

 

We're on the same page Redgum, as the issue wasn't with licenced shooters culling badgers but those without licences shooting them (my guess is that carcasses may have been found with 22LR or shotgun wounds..who knows the truth?). I happen to agree with you on the AOLQ thing as it does make it too easy in some areas to go out, obtain an FC, get AOLQ and go out, but a rifle and go stalking without a clue what you're doing, without a clue about where to shoot a deer, deer species differences, seasons, cull plans, and importantly, food hygiene which starts with the shot. Like you, I went down the DSC1 route and also know a lot of experienced stalkers and have learnt a lot from them. Even if Glos had not made it a condition, I think I'd have done it as I enjoyed it and learnt a fair bit in the process. Many don't bother and go on to make fundamental errors...of judgement taking a shot, improper/poor gralloch etc etc. Fine for those brought up with stalking, trained or otherwise mentored and experienced, but for a growing number of new to stalking sport shooters, DSC1 I think is a good idea. I'm not in favour of mandatory training though as things are tough enough and legislative requirements for firearms should be kept to the Firearms Act and not creep into other areas governed by wider legislation. Whatever the outcome and motivations of CC's, as I said, we all have the right to appeal/challenge anything we consider outside of remit or unreasonable. Even with Glos, I have had no problems to date getting what I want/need because as long as need is proved and competence evidenced, there's no issues.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Savhmr

[CharlieT]

With respect that seems a lot more complicated than the present system for no gain to either public safety or the applicant. Range time and instruction comes with a cost on top of increased fees plus whatever your GP charges.

 

It does to me too.

I can't quite understand why BenTJ and some others think that writing minimum acreage, compulsary mentoring, & training and a minimum RF shooting term before c/f upgrade or for that matter treating deer as some special being is beneficial to public safety.

 

Every situation, land, requirement and applicant is different, therefore each must be treated on it's own merit.

[Scully]

I didn't mention GP's. It would possibly be more complicated initially to get going but once it was going it would certainly be quicker. What's a morning on a range cost? I think I paid £50 which include using their gun and the ammo 10 years ago at Minsterley. I sat for an hour or two with one of the lads there and emptied a box of bullets, talked about safety and backstops and came away from there with a certificate of competence which means as much as a letter from a mentor in reality.

 

Think about it a form filling exercise with no room for interpretation or malignment from a copper that doesn't like certain calibres, or feo's that don't understand the capabilities of certain calibres. A process that follows home office guide lines and only requires two things a background check and a rubber stamp of the CC. I would happily pay more for a ticket that extends for a longer period, follows a more straightforward protocol and provides a faster turn around.

 

Imagine you go to your local range and spend £50 emptying a box of rimfire bullets into a target and get the all clear safety wise, you fill in a form similar to a driving license app with your referees to confirm you're not a nutter, enclose a copy of the certificate and within a month you've had your visit and your ticket is back in your possession. Even better they move to a driving license system and give you a card to hold rather than paper forms. That has got to be a better system than the current one.

My nephew was granted RF and CF as a first time applicant last year without a mentoring condition. Some licensing authorities are capable of making decisions based on the common sense of the FEO and the conditions as they apply to that particular applicant; others make decisions based on nothing more than the opinion of the CC

HO guidelines already exist; they don't prevent interpretation being made in the way you seem to be suggesting they do.

I'm aware you didn't mention GP's, but they will soon be playing a major role in the licensing process and the cost this will entail is a point well worth considering in the overall process.

[Redgum]

 

I'm not quite following that, can you elaborate please?

 

Are you suggesting with the right condition on your FAC you can hunt them, or are you saying with DEFRAS/Natural Englands blessing you can shoot them.

 

We can all do that but, there are specific legal requirements/calibres etc for Badger anyway, and the recent cull overspecified the legal requirements of badger calibres!

As I said Dekers, Badgers can be shot in my county with the correct licensing, this license is obtained by Natural England and, as far as I know the individual has to have a condition on his/her license to be able to shoot under this license. To gain this condition I believe one does have to be trained in the conditons set up by defra and in night shooting using the recommended calibre.

[Dekers]

As I said Dekers, Badgers can be shot in my county with the correct licensing, this license is obtained by Natural England and, as far as I know the individual has to have a condition on his/her license to be able to shoot under this license. To gain this condition I believe one does have to be trained in the conditons set up by defra and in night shooting using the recommended calibre.

 

That is the same for everyones county, certainly England and Wales. The recent Badger cull conditions listed AOLQ a suitable FAC condition. Whilst the cull also involved a level of training, that was nothing to do with getting AOLQ. .22WMR is the legal minimum but this may be upgraded on any licence, and was indeed raised to the same as small deer in the recent cull.

 

Just the same, getting a licence to "permanently remove" Badger is generally about as easy as eating soup with a fork in my part of the world.

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Dekers

[Guest stevo]

just got my ticket back after making a few changes and swaping a few rifles , and i now have the following

 

the certifcate holder may possess , purchase or aquire expanding ammunition , or the missiles of such ammunition , in the calibres autherised by this certificate with .

 

(a) the lawful shooting of deer

(b) the shooting of vermin or , in conection with the management of any estate , other wildlife

 

the .22RF rifle and ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin and any other lawful quarry

and zeroing - practice on ranges , on land which the holder has lawful authority to shoot .

 

the .22WMR rifle and ammunition shall be used for shooting fox and any other lawful quarry

and zeroing - practice on ranges , on land which the holder has lawful authority to shoot .

 

the .243 and ammunition shall be used for shooting deer and any other lawful quarry

and zeroing - practice on ranges , on land which the holder has lawful authority to shoot .

 

**************** end of conditions ******************

[Dekers]

just got my ticket back after making a few changes and swaping a few rifles , and i now have the following

 

the certifcate holder may possess , purchase or aquire expanding ammunition , or the missiles of such ammunition , in the calibres autherised by this certificate with .

 

(a) the lawful shooting of deer

(b) the shooting of vermin or , in conection with the management of any estate , other wildlife

 

the .22RF rifle and ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin and any other lawful quarry

and zeroing - practice on ranges , on land which the holder has lawful authority to shoot .

 

the .22WMR rifle and ammunition shall be used for shooting fox and any other lawful quarry

and zeroing - practice on ranges , on land which the holder has lawful authority to shoot .

 

the .243 and ammunition shall be used for shooting deer and any other lawful quarry

and zeroing - practice on ranges , on land which the holder has lawful authority to shoot .

 

**************** end of conditions ******************

 

So, AOLQ seems alive and well in your area!

[Guest stevo]

 

So, AOLQ seems alive and well in your area!

yep would seem so Dekers , I know the foxes over the next few nights are NOT going to be very impressed with the AOLQ and new .243 that's for sure

Edited February 8, 2016 by stevo