Considering buying forestry land for a shoot

[ChrisPCarter]

I've been dreaming of a career change and owning and managing a shoot for years and maybe it will remain a dream but I would like some input on whether it might be possible commercially.

 

I run a small business at the moment and can basically pay myself a small wage from that working one day a week. My wife works too so we have our outgoings covered.

I've been looking out for some woodland to rent and run a shoot on but it just so happens a prime bit of forest and mixed woodland has come up for sale and it's making me wonder if I could afford to buy it outright and run it as a commercial venture.

 

The forest is over 180 acres, mainly fairly dense sitka spruce, lodgepole pine, scots pine, japanese larch but there are open forest drives, clearings and sections of mixed woodland with a lot of silver birch and heather. There are a few pheasants about, woodcock and roe deer. There are a couple of small ponds which I think could be extended to attract ducks.

The problem of course is the small guide price... of £500,000+

I don't have half a million quid but I do like making money.

 

I really need the advice of someone in forestry but I thought I'd pick your brains on here as to whether I could put a business plan together and get loans and investment.

I've been doing a lot of reading and researching online but its so hard to come up with figures.

 

The land comes with the sporting rights.

It says mineral rights are owned by a third party.

A felling and thinning license is in place - not that i know much about this.

 

There are two public footpaths, one around the boundary in parts and another running through it though it is rare to see anyone as there it is quite hidden away with few parking spaces to attract the public.

The land is around half a mile from the nearest farm buildings and around a mile to approximately ten houses. Other than that its 3 or 4 miles to the nearest village. There has been shooting in the past, many years ago but I am wondering what potential noise issues there could be affecting running of a shoot - it wouldnt be good to get shut down and have the whole plan scuppered.

 

The forest needs thinning and it was planted early 1980's.

How do you go about valuing the timber and costs of harvesting it?

I have thoughts of doing forestry and gamekeeping myself! Obviously i could only manage smaller jobs on my own. I nearly went into forestry about 10 years ago so this is an interest i have.

With a shoot syndicate in place hopefully i will have a team to help with the shoot side of things.

A syndicate could pay rent or i could run it as part of the business i guess.

 

I'm having difficulty working out how many birds this kind of area could hold and how many guns could shoot it. I've helped out with shoots myself but all this kind of thing was already in place and its a bit different trying to plan potential income for it.

 

There seem to be plenty a of roe deer so could stalking be sold?

This isn't something i really know anything about, legalitites, management etc

 

I currently run a gundog training club so have a small amount of potential income from use of the land for this. I could set up proper training areas and use them myself or rent out areas to other clubs to use. This conflicts at times of the year with having birds on the ground but with such a big area it may be possible to combine both.

 

Potentially i could set up a clay shoot but this would need investment and more research.

As forest land what are the chances of being allowed to put up a cabin/clubhouse? I believe sheds and storage are generally allowed? There is a clay shoot setup for a syndicate in a neighbouring forest section though its rarely used. That has always seemed a waste but maybe they have restrictions on its use.

 

Any other forest uses i may be able make income from?

 

Its a case of working out if the income from all this could support a plan to pay off over half a million quid of loan over 25 or 30 years. If the banks would even do that.

There seem to be good returns on the value of forestry land so my plan would be to sell it when i retire in 25 years. Hard to say what it might be worth then but it's got to be a worthwhile investment as far as that goes.

 

There must be so much i haven't thought of both good and bad but that's what i need to put me off what could be a very stupid idea!

 

Chris.

[CharlieT]

Forestry is a good, tax efficient investment.

However, management of the growing timber will incur a cost as will advise and management costs.

 

If you intend to sell in 25 years time and walk away with your investment you won't wish to fell during that time, so any timber income will need to come from thinning, firewood and coppicing.

 

You won't make much profit from a game shoot on 180 acres or stalking let, so don't expect to pay off the loan with this.

And you won't want stalking happening to often when you have birds to wood. Same applies to a clay shoot.

 

Further, if you intend to run a shoot, you will need some open agricultural land around your wood for game crops etc to make it work.

 

Felling income would be good, but you would need to re-plant to sell on, or accept that the land price would be very low when you come to sell.

 

Basically, woodland is a good tax efficient investment with the added personal amenity use/value, but to derive an income of half a million quid from it + interest is all but impossible.

[silver pigeon69]

I've been dreaming of a career change and owning and managing a shoot for years and maybe it will remain a dream but I would like some input on whether it might be possible commercially.

 

I run a small business at the moment and can basically pay myself a small wage from that working one day a week. My wife works too so we have our outgoings covered.

I've been looking out for some woodland to rent and run a shoot on but it just so happens a prime bit of forest and mixed woodland has come up for sale and it's making me wonder if I could afford to buy it outright and run it as a commercial venture.

 

The forest is over 180 acres, mainly fairly dense sitka spruce, lodgepole pine, scots pine, japanese larch but there are open forest drives, clearings and sections of mixed woodland with a lot of silver birch and heather. There are a few pheasants about, woodcock and roe deer. There are a couple of small ponds which I think could be extended to attract ducks.

The problem of course is the small guide price... of £500,000+

I don't have half a million quid but I do like making money.

 

I really need the advice of someone in forestry but I thought I'd pick your brains on here as to whether I could put a business plan together and get loans and investment.

I've been doing a lot of reading and researching online but its so hard to come up with figures.

 

The land comes with the sporting rights.

It says mineral rights are owned by a third party.

A felling and thinning license is in place - not that i know much about this.

Will this tell you how much wood you can harvest? and therefore the value?

 

There are two public footpaths, one around the boundary in parts and another running through it though it is rare to see anyone as there it is quite hidden away with few parking spaces to attract the public.

The land is around half a mile from the nearest farm buildings and around a mile to approximately ten houses. Other than that its 3 or 4 miles to the nearest village. There has been shooting in the past, many years ago but I am wondering what potential noise issues there could be affecting running of a shoot - it wouldnt be good to get shut down and have the whole plan scuppered.

 

The forest needs thinning and it was planted early 1980's.

How do you go about valuing the timber and costs of harvesting it?

I have thoughts of doing forestry and gamekeeping myself! Obviously i could only manage smaller jobs on my own. I nearly went into forestry about 10 years ago so this is an interest i have.

With a shoot syndicate in place hopefully i will have a team to help with the shoot side of things.

A syndicate could pay rent or i could run it as part of the business i guess.

 

I'm having difficulty working out how many birds this kind of area could hold and how many guns could shoot it. I've helped out with shoots myself but all this kind of thing was already in place and its a bit different trying to plan potential income for it. I dont think it would hold enough to warrant a higher income than a free syndicate place.

 

There seem to be plenty a of roe deer so could stalking be sold? Yes, but you will have to research insurance etc

This isn't something i really know anything about, legalitites, management etc

 

I currently run a gundog training club so have a small amount of potential income from use of the land for this. I could set up proper training areas and use them myself or rent out areas to other clubs to use. This conflicts at times of the year with having birds on the ground but with such a big area it may be possible to combine both.

 

Potentially i could set up a clay shoot but this would need investment and more research.

As forest land what are the chances of being allowed to put up a cabin/clubhouse? I believe sheds and storage are generally allowed? There is a clay shoot setup for a syndicate in a neighbouring forest section though its rarely used. That has always seemed a waste but maybe they have restrictions on its use.

 

Any other forest uses i may be able make income from? Forestry schools etc, but these would interfere with the shooting. Also UK/EU grants. One EU grant at the moment is funding for access roads into woodland. Estate near me has just got £80k to build some roads. I also believe that you pay less income tax than normal?

 

Its a case of working out if the income from all this could support a plan to pay off over half a million quid of loan over 25 or 30 years. If the banks would even do that. Sorry but i dont think the above would be anywhere near enough of an income to repay the million quid (500K + interest) to the bank. i think thats about £5k a month in repayments!

There seem to be good returns on the value of forestry land so my plan would be to sell it when i retire in 25 years.If you have kids, 0% inheritance tax! Hard to say what it might be worth then but it's got to be a worthwhile investment as far as that goes. Not sure on woodland, but farmland has increased in value over 15% per year for the last 10yrs.

 

There must be so much i haven't thought of both good and bad but that's what i need to put me off what could be a very stupid idea!

 

Chris.

[Bleeh]

Though it's an interesting investment, it going to cost you about £3k/month (£36k P/A) for the loan alone (If they give it to you).

 

I know you've got an itch you want to scratch, but for that sort of money you could rent land, budget a shoot, and start a syndicate for £5k (and maybe make it back) and just straight invest £31k into something else.

You are also then also not tied into trying to make it work for the next 25 years. (Extended Holidays, retirements, etc)

Edited February 8, 2016 by Bleeh

[silver pigeon69]

Though it's an interesting investment, it going to cost you about £3k/month (£36k P/A) for the loan alone (If they give it to you). Is that interest only? what would the approx interest rate be on a loan like this? i presume it would be classed as a bussiness loan?

 

I know you've got an itch you want to scratch, but for that sort of money you could rent land, budget a shoot, and start a syndicate for £5k (and maybe make it back) and just straight invest £31k into something else.

 

You are also then also not tied into trying to make it work for the next 25 years. (Extended Holidays, retirements, etc)

[fortune]

A lot of typing in there. Do you want it for a shoot or a wood business? The two don't seem to be compatible and I wouldn't think that 180 acres of forestry ( The forest is over 180 acres, mainly fairly dense sitka spruce, lodgepole pine, scots pine, japanese larch ) would be any good for a shoot full stop. it's generally too dark and damp in thick forestry and birds don't stay in there.

[ChrisPCarter]

A lot of typing in there. Do you want it for a shoot or a wood business? The two don't seem to be compatible and I wouldn't think that 180 acres of forestry ( The forest is over 180 acres, mainly fairly dense sitka spruce, lodgepole pine, scots pine, japanese larch ) would be any good for a shoot full stop. it's generally too dark and damp in thick forestry and birds don't stay in there.

 

Well this is why I was considering the value of the timber and costs. If parts of it were thinned enough and game crops planted in sections it would provide income from the wood and make it more suitable.

There is open farmland on all sides but it is just used for sheep. I could potentially take out some trees around the edges and plant game crops there up to the farmland.

Some sections of it are more open woodland that already seem quite suitable. How long it would take to make it suitable is a different matter though.

Taking out too much timber would de-value the investment though.

[ChrisPCarter]

Forestry is a good, tax efficient investment.

However, management of the growing timber will incur a cost as will advise and management costs.

I'm wondering how much of this I could do myself and with favours in return for a bit of shooting etc.

 

If you intend to sell in 25 years time and walk away with your investment you won't wish to fell during that time, so any timber income will need to come from thinning, firewood and coppicing.

Yes that's what I was thinking. It's hard to work out what that might be though. I guess for someone with £500K in the bank to just buy it as an investment it doesn't matter as it's just a bonus.

 

You won't make much profit from a game shoot on 180 acres or stalking let, so don't expect to pay off the loan with this.

The problem is I don't know how to work out what size of game shoot it could take at present. It would need work before it was suitable to start.

And you won't want stalking happening to often when you have birds to wood. Same applies to a clay shoot.

I can't imagine there would be a lot of stalking, it's just not that big an area but it's a bit of income to add to the figures.

If I did something with a clay shoot it would have to stay well away at one end I guess.

 

Further, if you intend to run a shoot, you will need some open agricultural land around your wood for game crops etc to make it work.

There is grazing on all sides. It might be possible to have an arrangement with that landowner to do something in that regard or take out trees on the edges and plant crops around.

I could do with someone taking a look at the area.

 

Felling income would be good, but you would need to re-plant to sell on, or accept that the land price would be very low when you come to sell.

Yes I'd want to keep as much as possible and re-plant. More figures to try to calculate.

 

Basically, woodland is a good tax efficient investment with the added personal amenity use/value, but to derive an income of half a million quid from it + interest is all but impossible.

Yes I've read of the tax benefits which is what got me interested when I first thought about this crazy plan.

[ChrisPCarter]

 

A felling and thinning license is in place - not that i know much about this.

Will this tell you how much wood you can harvest? and therefore the value?

I need to go get the full information pack and see what this involves.

 

I'm having difficulty working out how many birds this kind of area could hold and how many guns could shoot it. I've helped out with shoots myself but all this kind of thing was already in place and its a bit different trying to plan potential income for it. I dont think it would hold enough to warrant a higher income than a free syndicate place.

Not sure I get what you mean there?

There seem to be plenty a of roe deer so could stalking be sold? Yes, but you will have to research insurance etc

This isn't something i really know anything about, legalitites, management etc

I'm wondering if it could even be done with a public footpath through? I presume the land has to be approved for firearms of the required calibre?

I would think footpaths are a big concern in that regard. I don't have a FAC at the moment, just shotguns so I'm not up on all the requirements.

Any other forest uses i may be able make income from? Forestry schools etc, but these would interfere with the shooting. Also UK/EU grants. One EU grant at the moment is funding for access roads into woodland. Estate near me has just got £80k to build some roads. I also believe that you pay less income tax than normal?

One thing I've always been into is bushcraft and survival and I've done a few courses over the years. There's potential for running something along those lines there but like you say, too many people about will interfere with shooting. There is an old chalet type wood cabin in the woods that's derelict but useable. I've no idea how it got there as it's half a mile into the forest. Could be good as the basis of a camp.

Its a case of working out if the income from all this could support a plan to pay off over half a million quid of loan over 25 or 30 years. If the banks would even do that. Sorry but i dont think the above would be anywhere near enough of an income to repay the million quid (500K + interest) to the bank. i think thats about £5k a month in repayments!

I'm still trying to work out what rates might be charged but yes I've thought of £3K to £5K per month. It's a case of working out of my various small income streams could pay for it with a small profit and make it worthwhile when it was eventually sold.

There seem to be good returns on the value of forestry land so my plan would be to sell it when i retire in 25 years.If you have kids, 0% inheritance tax!

Yes I've got kids and that is a big plus point.

 

Hard to say what it might be worth then but it's got to be a worthwhile investment as far as that goes. Not sure on woodland, but farmland has increased in value over 15% per year for the last 10yrs.

I've read figures of 20% up to 250% mentioned which is a very good return indeed. Shame I haven't got the cash to buy it

 

[ChrisPCarter]

Though it's an interesting investment, it going to cost you about £3k/month (£36k P/A) for the loan alone (If they give it to you).

 

I know you've got an itch you want to scratch, but for that sort of money you could rent land, budget a shoot, and start a syndicate for £5k (and maybe make it back) and just straight invest £31k into something else.

 

You are also then also not tied into trying to make it work for the next 25 years. (Extended Holidays, retirements, etc)

 

Good points and things I've been considering. I came up with those kind of guestimated figures myself.

The payoff would be potentially a very valuable piece of woodland when I retire and the use of it until then.

I've been looking for somewhere suitable to rent for a shoot for a while and nothing much has come up.

Even if I only kept it 10 years and got out that would be a good money maker. The trees would need managing though.

[ChrisPCarter]

 

Though it's an interesting investment, it going to cost you about £3k/month (£36k P/A) for the loan alone (If they give it to you). Is that interest only? what would the approx interest rate be on a loan like this? i presume it would be classed as a business loan?

 

I don't know what the business loan rates are for this kind of borrowing but I guessed it to be around this amount myself, based on something a bit higher than a mortgage as in theory if I failed to repay they would still own the land so I can't see it being too high a risk for them in that regard.

I worked out interest only would be about £1.5K per month.

 

[silver pigeon69]

 

 

Though it's an interesting investment, it going to cost you about £3k/month (£36k P/A) for the loan alone (If they give it to you). Is that interest only? what would the approx interest rate be on a loan like this? i presume it would be classed as a business loan?

 

I don't know what the business loan rates are for this kind of borrowing but I guessed it to be around this amount myself, based on something a bit higher than a mortgage as in theory if I failed to repay they would still own the land so I can't see it being too high a risk for them in that regard.

I worked out interest only would be about £1.5K per month.

 

 

I think you will be very lucky to get a loan that is a bit higher than a mortgage. Last time i looked at a business loan, it was over 5 times the residential mortgage rate.(but that was a few years ago!)

[silver pigeon69]

I'm having difficulty working out how many birds this kind of area could hold and how many guns could shoot it. I've helped out with shoots myself but all this kind of thing was already in place and its a bit different trying to plan potential income for it. I dont think it would hold enough to warrant a higher income than a free syndicate place.

Not sure I get what you mean there?

 

By providing the land etc, the landowner normally becomes a gun/syndicate member for free, as opposed to paying in their £600+ for the place.

Edit: On a small DIY shoot.

Edited February 8, 2016 by silver pigeon69

[scotslad]

I doubt 180 acres off even prime ground would be enough to run a commercial shoot on. Ur drives would be very close to each other so shooting 1 would have birds fleeing out off the rest and putting ducks of the ponds.

It doesnae sound like this is prime ground so ur always going to struggle.

Also ivesting in a shoot is probably as safe an investmant as investing in a pub, many shoots going bust all the time, think very hard to make money at it.

Plus i take it it's in N Yorks? There is somefantastic shooting in that area already showing quality/high birds. Would there be a market for u? Is it saturated already? Only way u'll get started is by being cheap as doubt ur birds will be of same quality, and cheap u will struggle to cover costs. Margins are very tight and a lot to go wrong

 

Even ur deer stalking 180 acres won't hold that big a population to make money off, also if trees are mature will be doing no harm, if u start felling/replanting roe can cause massive damage for 1st 5-8yrs of trees life (longer for hard woods) and can make tree almost worthless 30-40 years down the line if it nips the top bud and u get twin leaders. So u will have to do some deer control, it may cost u money

 

Also if planted in 1980's that woudld make it 35 years old, probably needs felling rather than thinning. T o fell u have to app;y for a felling licence and part of that is usually that u nust re plant with trees and show a new planting plan, often more conservation friendly ie more open space and hard woods.

U really need to suss out the timber value and wot stage it is at and the quality and quantity, timber prices are pretty low at moment.

 

U might find the reason it is up for sale is because the big pay cheque from felling (by time harvesting and haulage expenses taken off) might not cover ur dolping/mounding, re-planting and beating up and spraying, then re spacing (not usually done nowadays but good for crop if lot of natural regen) and thinning further down the line.

U really need specialist advice on the timber side (and the shoot side but i doubt it will not be suitable for anything more than small scale syndicate) possible asking on a different forum like arbtalk might get u more informed general advice

 

Also u generally can not get a loan for land (must be different for farms thou) i only found this out when buying a couple of building sites recently.

[rjimmer]

Unless you could afford to buy it without having any borrowed money, anywhere, you should forget it.

[Bleeh]

Unless you could afford to buy it without having any borrowed money, anywhere, you should forget it.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2016 by Bleeh

[subsonicnat]

Had the Shooting Rights many years ago on one.

Shooting Wise it was very hard, it is always dark when you leave the main drives going through..

Even pigeon shooting was hard as as soon as it gets towards evening, and light is fading, they always drop in the thickest bit,

You cannot even retrieve them, Gave it up after 2 years, as a no go.. B.o.l

[kent]

Half a million will buy a proper buisness let alone a hobby one that likely as not will hardly wipe it's face

 

If you have to borrow to buy it and you need a year on year draw from it then forget it imo

[scotslad]

The last few folk make very valid points a hell of a money to struggle to make a profit off. Lot to pay back and a bloody massive risk

 

But even proper big name commercial shoots aren't making big profits considering turn over and outlay.

 

The timber value will be key for that sort of money.

Have u walked throu it?

 

They tried to plant a lot of lodgepole here in 70's complete disaster, whole stands just died out at around 15-20 years of age, does not like wet peaty soil or wet climate, does better on east coasts drier soils and climate thou. Later on the FC experimented using lodgepole alongside SS and NS to save thinning as lodge would die out naturally, but was a PITA to harvest as dead trees standing everywhere and no thinning produce.

Also bear in mind PR (pythan? Ryanium? or wot ever they call it) in Larch which is killing a lot of larch in SW scot and all over really, if trees are infected affects timber prices and only some sawmills willl take it.

 

Finally roughly speaking any tree over 80cm-1m dai at base begins to be worth less money, most sawmills are not designed to take 'oversized timber' which i think comes in about 80-100cm

 

Basically u'd be mad to touch it without some very good expert advice, esp about timber.

 

If u really want to scratch the keepering itch and have time on ur hands can u not join a local DIY syndicate, most would cut arms off to get a gun with spare time and actually wants to help, bad enough getting guns to turn up at work parties never mind volanteer at other times.

Be good exp if the right lease ever does come up and u will have a far better idea of the work and money it costs to show pheasants

 

Ps Consider the steepness of ground, if tooo steep may not be vaible even harvesting crop, a slow and expensive job if has to be hand cut and sky lined off. Not many companies still running sky lines any more due to expense and lack of profits

Edited February 8, 2016 by scotslad

[millrace]

To small for commercial shoot diy syndicate at best.......

[Pothunter]

The short answer is no.

[figgy]

That half million asking price is plus you state so could go for more. At just under 2800 an acre there will be farmers etc looking at it to. It and clear for farm land I'd have thought.

 

From what folk have said its not worth the money as a wood.

 

Clearing some of it and putting caravans,lodges and camping on might make it viable.if this is allowed.

Edited February 12, 2016 by figgy