James Arnold

[Scully]

I've been trying to find out whether the haul of guns found at James Arnolds house were actually live, fully functioning firearms or in fact deactivated.

I know most of the guns he owned were illegally held, but that doesn't mean they were actually fully functioning as even old spec' deacts' would now be classed as illegally held if bought post current legislation, from what I can gather.

I came across an article on an American website which claimed that it was very strange for a PC to be posing with a LAWS in what appeared to be a police strongroom as it would be a live missile. Nowhere in the article ( Daily Mail I believe ) does it state the LAWS is deactivated.

Given the reputation we know the police authorities have for being economical with facts when it comes to the reporting of firearms statistics ( I remember the list of confiscated/seized firearms published a couple of years ago which on closer examination turned out to include moderators, airguns, replicas and unspecified 'other' items?) I also recall the 'surrendered' and 'seized' firearms on display by a police authority in the Leeds Armouries, most of which aren't firearms in the real sense at all.

I am wondering if we have been deliberately misled, again.

 

[hambone]

No knowledge of this case but on balance PROBABLY

[GingerCat]

The launcher counts as a firearm in itself. No need for an actual live missile and it would need deactivation as per the norm. Thr launcher could easily be stored in an armoury.

I don't think anyone been misled but the court records will show what was live etc as everything would have been examined to within an inch of its life to prove exactly what it is as well as all the trace evidence let alone if they have been used in crimes before etc etc etc.

[Scully]

The launcher counts as a firearm in itself. No need for an actual live missile and it would need deactivation as per the norm. Thr launcher could easily be stored in an armoury.

I don't think anyone been misled but the court records will show what was live etc as everything would have been examined to within an inch of its life to prove exactly what it is as well as all the trace evidence let alone if they have been used in crimes before etc etc etc.

I understand what you're saying, but the LAWS is a one shot launcher and once the projectile has been fired the remainder is useless. It doesn't state in the article whether the launcher the pc is holding up for the camera is complete and live, just the launch mechanism or deactivated.

I understand the launcher could easily be stored in an armoury but would a live specimen be stored in a police armoury? I very much doubt it.

I also understand everything would have been minutely examined, but that doesn't reveal the findings of those examinations. How do I get access to court records regarding what was what?

[GingerCat]

Hmmmmm, I'm not entirely sure how the public would go about it (court records), it is public record though so should be possible. I'd imagine they need typing and incur a cost.

Edited March 2, 2016 by GingerCat

[JJsDad]

As James Arnold died before any case was brought against him, I dont think you will get much out of the court records because they dont exist.

Tony Buckland (AR Buckland Gunsmiths) was charged with a number of firearms related offences and subsequently jailed for 6 years.

Buckland did not supply all the illegal weapons to Arnold; if I remember correctly he only supplied 2 or 3 out of the total haul.

 

However the fact he supplied any caused the Police to look closely at what he had been doing in his capacity as a RFD, which led to a number of charges totally seperate to the weapons held by Arnold, albeit the press were happy to suggest that Buckland had been instrumental in supplying the whole lot.

 

So even looking at the charges brought against Buckland is not going to shed any light on the large quantity recovered from the hidden cache at Arnolds house.

 

The total collection at Arnolds house were catalogued by the Forensics Lab, so it is highly likely that only they and the Police know exactly what category these weapons fell into.

 

You could raise the question under the `Freedom of Information Act`, but I suspect you will only get told the bare figures as categorized by the Forensics people.

Edited March 3, 2016 by JJsDad

[Rewulf]

I seem to remember them saying on a news program that 100s of 1000s of 'rounds of ammunition' were recovered also.

Whilst not showing any actual 'live' cartridges,it did show plenty of empty cases of various calibres,some on belts,and a large quantity of leas ball and minie type bullets for muzzle loaders.

[GingerCat]

Didn't know he died before trial. An foi is probably the only way as stated above.

edited for the typo

Edited March 3, 2016 by GingerCat

[Scully]

I seem to remember them saying on a news program that 100s of 1000s of 'rounds of ammunition' were recovered also.

Whilst not showing any actual 'live' cartridges,it did show plenty of empty cases of various calibres,some on belts,and a large quantity of leas ball and minie type bullets for muzzle loaders.

That's interesting; as we all know, an empty case isn't a 'round' of ammunition.

[Rewulf]

There you go.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/19/12/315DEBB900000578-3454380-image-a-137_1455884456396.jpg

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/19/12/315DE8ED00000578-3454380-image-m-141_1455884545750.jpg

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/19/11/315D944100000578-3454380-image-a-84_1455882236491.jpg

 

Full article

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3454380/Pictured-Terrifying-arsenal-500-guns-200-000-rounds-ammunition-seized-respectable-parish-council-chairman-collected-firearms-like-stamps.html

 

Whilst its impossible to say which firearms are 'live ' and which are deacts,what you can see from the images and article are that as far as ammunition goes,there appears to be only bullet heads,empty cases,ball ect,there is even a bag of empty shotgun cases!

No live ammo.

The deceased man did have an FAC,so at least a few of the guns could have been legally owned?

 

As Scully said if the LAW was live it would not be in the police armoury,and Im pretty sure the disposable launch tube does not constitute a weapon on its own.

Also the anti tank round pictured is probably a dummy, for the same reason.

 

Draw your own conclusions obviously ,but in my mind the man cannot answer for himself and,if the media or the police want to paint a picture,there is really no one to argue is there?

[armourer103]

the launch tube does constitute a weapon of its own, had occasion to deactivate one to hang over the bar in the junior ranks mess,

and before you ask they are reloadable some terrorist types have already done this in the past!

[Rewulf]

the launch tube does constitute a weapon of its own, had occasion to deactivate one to hang over the bar in the junior ranks mess,

and before you ask they are reloadable some terrorist types have already done this in the past!

 

Fair enough,I was not sure.

But terrorists will use a bit of drain pipe to use as a mortar or rocket launch tube,does that then make the drain pipe a weapon?

 

I just saw a picture of a Thompson in the article that does not appear to have a top cocking handle,did some have them on the right side of the action?

Also the 'Calcio' smg ,I have seen a Calico semi auto rifle before,but Im sure Ive seen a gun like that used in science fiction films!

[armourer103]

not sure about drainpipe, as long as no firing mech still a drainpipe? legal stuff not my expertise, 2 inch morter is only a tube with a fixed firing pin!

 

earley thompsons had cocking/charging handle on top with slot to see the foresight, later models side cocking was cheaper to produce, hope this helps,

[keg]

Slightly off topic but still connected, do the police count knife crime under firearms or is that only the case if the ARV buys are called out. I seem to remember an article in the press about this.

[Scully]

There you go.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/19/12/315DEBB900000578-3454380-image-a-137_1455884456396.jpg

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/19/12/315DE8ED00000578-3454380-image-m-141_1455884545750.jpg

 

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/19/11/315D944100000578-3454380-image-a-84_1455882236491.jpg

 

Full article

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3454380/Pictured-Terrifying-arsenal-500-guns-200-000-rounds-ammunition-seized-respectable-parish-council-chairman-collected-firearms-like-stamps.html

 

Whilst its impossible to say which firearms are 'live ' and which are deacts,what you can see from the images and article are that as far as ammunition goes,there appears to be only bullet heads,empty cases,ball ect,there is even a bag of empty shotgun cases!

No live ammo.

The deceased man did have an FAC,so at least a few of the guns could have been legally owned?

 

As Scully said if the LAW was live it would not be in the police armoury,and Im pretty sure the disposable launch tube does not constitute a weapon on its own.

Also the anti tank round pictured is probably a dummy, for the same reason.

 

Draw your own conclusions obviously ,but in my mind the man cannot answer for himself and,if the media or the police want to paint a picture,there is really no one to argue is there?

Many thanks for that. I too saw mostly heads and empty cases, with a smattering of what looked like .22rf. The collection of heads and empty cases reminded me of the tins and tins of similar I had as a kid, including artillery and mortar shells.

I must admit I'm wondering why Arnold felt the need to hide away some examples if they weren't live, but can't believe the vast majority were, including the LAWS. I find it very difficult to believe a pc would be posing with it if it were live, acknowledging the superior knowledge of armourer103, which would mean it was still an illegally held firearm ( albeit quite safe ) even if spent.

I realise the media wouldn't let any facts spoil a good story (' 400 totally harmless firearms uncovered in house, along with their equally harmless ammo', is hardly a seller compared to the story which did sell. I also realise that as well as artistic embellishment, much of the info' as reported, must have come from the police.

I'm itching to know the facts.

[GingerCat]

I'd suggest they didn't spend 27 days searching the house with eod for deacts and a few spent cases. Do an foi request and see what they say.

[Rewulf]

I am also itching to know the facts,just for my own personal interest really.

Would they really embellish the story for sensationalist purposes ,surely not

 

The 'haul could have equipped 9 coach loads of terrorists' apparently.

Some of the guns looked a bit worse for wear,may have been purchased like that,or stored poorly.

I particularly liked the way a grenade was left on top of one of the ammo piles,for effect presumably.

Either way,I dont think we will ever know,the trial now over,the guns will be destroyed or disposed of.

I get the feeling though we havnt heard the last of this..

[wildrover77]

I'd suggest they didn't spend 27 days searching the house with eod for deacts and a few spent cases. Do an foi request and see what they say.

You mean the police would not waste 27 days worth of tax payers money? That would be a first

[Scully]

I'd suggest they didn't spend 27 days searching the house with eod for deacts and a few spent cases. Do an foi request and see what they say.

Until they'd done the search they wouldn't know whether they were deacts or not. As it turns out they did in fact find a few spent cases; thousands upon thousands of them.

[GingerCat]

They would prove as they went along, if they were deacts they would scale back, if they were not they would carry on as they did.

They have to make safe etc each item and box it up at the scene for forensic integrity, that takes time. Deacts and replicas would not get the treatment and don't take the time.

Also they would be getting grilled each morning as to how much it's costing and what budget it's coming from, there's precious little in anyone's budget these days to squander on a fishing trip for a few non-firearms that will go nowhere , again unless there was a reason for it they would not spend a whole month going through it, it just does not happen regardless of what you hear from a mate in the pub who read it online.

I too am curious as to what was found and agree the pics aren't great when compared to the newspaper article but the press office release the images and it seldom had a representative sample of what was found.

Try a foi request but don't hold your breath.

[Scully]

I understand how the process works but I also understand how the police report such investigations, and as I've said, even deacts have to be scrutinised and catalogued.

They may well all have been live firearms but doubt has been cast on this due to similar claims made about the 'rounds of ammunition' ( by the media admittedly and not the police, unless of course it was the police who instructed the media ) when that is plainly not the case; there are very few, if any, rounds of ammunition on display.

I didn't hear anything from a mate in the pub who read it online; I've had my own doubts from the outset. I also realise a freedom of information act would probably be fruitless, but have set the ball rolling, so we'll see how it goes.

[GingerCat]

Good work.

[Rewulf]

Just found this,nothing really new,but I thought I would post it anyway.

 

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/u-k-s-largest-ever-hoard-illegal-weapons-leads-jail-time-dealer.html