Doctors Strike

[Vince Green]

Is there anybody else out there who thinks this is going to be a massive own goal? Next week the papers are going to be full of stories about people who died because treatment wasn't received. The doctors gain no leverage by harming patients.

 

Its wrong to call it a strike really in any case. Back in the day the right to strike meant forcing the mill owners to grant concessions by hitting them in their pocket. The only people hit by a doctors strike have never been able to grant them their wishes, totally innocent victims in fact, so where is the wisdom or the justice?

 

The BMA is misguided in calling this strike in my opinion, its petulance because they feel they have not been listened to. They may be right but this is not the way.

 

The junior doctors interviewed on the radio these past few days have been spouting stuff that belongs in the Student's Union debating Society. "If this doesn't work we will hold an indefinite all out strike till the Government caves in". Really? Very dignified. That's like saying if we don't get our own way we are going to start killing the patients.

 

In fact its not 'like' that is what they are saying

Edited April 26, 2016 by Vince Green

[The Mighty Prawn]

Remember the firefighters strike where they had virtually 100% backing initially and slowly it eroded as casualties mounted and the tide turned hard and they were the baddies pretty soon - I feel the doctors crossing that threshold today

[Lloyd90]

That's nothing at all like saying if they don't get their own way they will start killing the patients.

 

The ultimate power of ANYONE in any employment is to with hold their labour, either until they can negotiate what they want or they can withhold it indefinitely eg quit.

 

They have as much right as anyone else to withhold their labour whether you want to call it a strike or not.

 

Their contract has shafted them, they however are in a position as doctors caring for the vulnerable that we hold them to some sort of moral standard that means they have to work regardless of their pay or conditions, that's ridiculous!

 

I can genuinely see strikes coming in, the government putting private cover in place and then declaring the NHS if incapable of providing the service, therefore introducing more privatised aspects of the NHS!

[panoma1]

But there are two sides to every story, the government have to accept at least equal responsibility for this polarised situation!

[Lloyd90]

Remember the firefighters strike where they had virtually 100% backing initially and slowly it eroded as casualties mounted and the tide turned hard and they were the baddies pretty soon - I feel the doctors crossing that threshold today

Thing is, if the whole thing was privatised and "unprofitable" to be open on weekends etc, they'd certainly not be taking criticism from the public, they'd tell them it was tough! Rhys the way we're heading!

[Vince Green]

The right to strike is about financially blackmailing the employer. How is this hitting the employer?

 

What's wrong with privatisation anyway? Private companies are presumably more efficient. They give a better service at a lower cost. Simple as that for me. My cousin had her knee replaced last year in a private hospital on the NHS. I really don't see how that was such a bad thing.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Vince Green

[Mark74]

Its been reported that there will be no emergency care provided but that is simply untrue as senior Dr's are covering for the Junior Dr's. BBC especially is very Tory biased and the media slant facts and figures to support the Government.

Unfortunately they have no choice but to strike as the Government is simply not listening & shows no sign of negotiating - although it was reported at the time NHS trusts thought the new contract was fair NONE of them supported it's imposition.

Hunt preaches about the policy pledge for a 7 day NHS which is why he is unwilling to compromise, but he is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Firstly a 7 day NHS already exists, whereby Junior Dr's are already working weekends. Secondly there's a 10% shortfall in manning in NHS which is growing bigger, which means the NHS cannot cope with 5 days, as Hunt has trimmed another £22 billion OFF the NHS funding and is not hiring anymore staff how does he proposed to staff a 7 day NHS, because he claims the new contract means Dr's will be working less hours.

98% of Dr's claim the new contract is dangerous. We already give far less to healthcare than Germany etc. If Hunt wants a 7 day NHS he needs to pay for it, not expect overstretched staff to work longer for less.

 

Now of course if Dr's don't agree with the contract they can leave (& many are) but then you can't just hire another one off streets.

 

Alas the NHS as we know it is being eroded by this Government and private healthcare is on the way.....

[Vince Green]

Firstly a 7 day NHS already exists, whereby Junior Dr's are already working weekends.

I would challenge your statement about the 7 day NHS, my mother has been in Northwick Park Hospital three times since Christmas. The place is like the Marie Celeste at weekends. Its a ghost town, all those resources standing idle. Even the Costa Coffee shop is closed. If there were any doctors working they never came anywhere near my mum.

 

Can't see why its such a problem to want to crank up the service

 

I would also challenge your assertion that the BBC is guilty of Tory bias. Its the first time the BBC has ever been accused of tory bias, they have been accused many times of being institutionally left wing.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Vince Green

[Mark74]

I would challenge your statement about the 7 day NHS, my mother has been in Northwick Park Hospital three times since Christmas. The place is like the Marie Celeste at weekends. All those resources standing idle. Even the Costa Coffee shop is closed. If there were any doctors working they never came anywhere near my mum.

 

Can't see why its such a problem to want to crank up the service

Not all services run on a weekend, but junior Dr's are on duty - obviously not as many and services are reduced.

 

A 7 day NHS is a good idea, but it's how they are going about it - that's the problem.

Without hiring more staff and increasing funding how on earth can the same NHS staff cover 2 extra days without increasing thier hours or scaling back on services that currently happen.

A 7 day NHS not only means more Junior Dr's but also more nurses and back up staff.....something which eroding not increasing. On my wife's ward they have lost 50% of thier nurses but they still have same number of beds.....

 

A 7 day NHS would be wonderful but until this Government stop cutting funding and hire more people into the profession - not forcing them to rethink thier career choices - it's simply unworkable

[Lloyd90]

The right to strike is about financially blackmailing the employer. How is this hitting the employer?

 

What's wrong with privatisation anyway? Private companies are presumably more efficient. They give a better service at a lower cost. Simple as that for me. My cousin had her knee replaced last year in a private hospital on the NHS. I really don't see how that was such a bad thing.

What's wrong with it ? They tender it out to the lowest bidder, whether or not they can deliver the service well.

 

Bidders only take on contracts that are profitable, so if you have a rare ,uncommon or condition that doesn't generate the private company enough profit then nobody wants to offer the service (why would a private company offer an unprofitable service after all?)

 

How is that hitting the employer ? Because without staff they do not exist! And if they push the staff far enough then they will inevitably cease too!

 

As per your mother, I hope she is well soon.

 

The Costa coffee within the hospital will be privately owned not hospital owned, as a prime example of the above, it's not busy enough on the weekend so they don't bother opening at all, that's what will happen to private healthcare elements that don't offer profit! The hospital was still open at all times!

[panoma1]

The difficulty the doctors face is who are they hurting by going on strike? Not the government (employer) as they don't give a flying ****, they have all probably got private healthcare anyway! So why would they compromise?......nope their biggest problem is they are hurting patients, who are the general public!......the same general public who's continuing support strikers in the public sector rely on!

 

The government will most likely just sit tight until public support wanes

[panoma1]

What's wrong with it ? They tender it out to the lowest bidder, whether or not they can deliver the service well.

Bidders only take on contracts that are profitable, so if you have a rare ,uncommon or condition that doesn't generate the private company enough profit then nobody wants to offer the service (why would a private company offer an unprofitable service after all?)

How is that hitting the employer ? Because without staff they do not exist! And if they push the staff far enough then they will inevitably cease too!

As per your mother, I hope she is well soon.

The Costa coffee within the hospital will be privately owned not hospital owned, as a prime example of the above, it's not busy enough on the weekend so they don't bother opening at all, that's what will happen to private healthcare elements that don't offer profit! The hospital was still open at all times!

An example of this is the buses.......all the rural routes are either ceased altogether or very occasional for example once or twice a day, in the cities and large towns the run every few minutes!.......privatise the health service.......you must be mad!

[panoma1]

The right to strike is about financially blackmailing the employer. How is this hitting the employer?What's wrong with privatisation anyway? Private companies are presumably more efficient. They give a better service at a lower cost. Simple as that for me. My cousin had her knee replaced last year in a private hospital on the NHS. I really don't see how that was such a bad thing.

 

Your cousin didn't have it done privately, the NHS paid for it! If your cousin had to have it done privately she would have had to have expensive private healthcare insurance...........or paid the 10K plus herself!

[grrclark]

Remember that all the strike action is now about one single issue, the rate of pay on a Saturday.

 

Of the 16 initial objections by the BMA there was agreement on 15 of the points. The only point not agreed was Saturday pay rates.

 

No matter what other arguments are put forward by either side this is now a single issue strike.

 

As a point of note GP services have been private since the inception of the NHS; privitisation isn't a new thing.

Edited April 26, 2016 by grrclark

[CharlieT]

I agree entirely with your comments Vince, and as GRRC has stated above, this is now purely a grievance about Saturday pay rates.

 

It's about time junior doctors accepted the fact that a 24/7 service is not only necessary but imperative. There are huge numbers of people working in 24/7 service industries who accepted long ago that weekend working did not result in enhanced weekend pay rates.

 

Anyone who thinks that NHS hospitals currently provide a 24/7 service has either never been in a hospital over a weekend or is deluding themselves.

[Mark74]

All GPs are self employed but are paid by the NHS which also pays for the surgery staff, and it's been that way since 1948, however NHS England changed things whereby all practice must open up for bids from private firms which are there to make a profit not make sure your healthcare comes first.

Whatever the rights/pay etc lets hope they get renegotiating and sort out this mess before we lose more Dr's (Junior & Consultants) who feel the need to work abroad. Do I want a motivated, engaged and Keen Dr treating me, or do I want an overworked, undervalued disengaged one?

Yes, work towards a 24/7 healthcare system but at the same time realise this was promised without any funding.....so stop spending money on worthless things and give a much needed boost to the Heathcare system and it's much needed staff.

 

This is a good read on the subject:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/26/jeremy-hunt-nhs-junior-doctors-strike?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Lloyd90]

And anyone who think you can just keep slapping more and more hours onto a service that is already over stretched, whilst also reducing its funding is even more deluded!

 

People are saying junior doctors just need to accept it, eventually I have no doubt they may, although some will leave, many may leave to go abroad.

 

The services will be further strained and under sources and will cost far more than we "save" by hiring in private locum doctors on a far higher rate than we are willing to pay, probably agencied in by those who refuse to negotiate now

[Kalahari]

As someone who is married to someone who started out as a junior doctor and ended up as a consultant, and who worked weekends for no extra pay, one of the problems with the new juniors contracts is that they aren't doing enough hours. This might seem a funny statement but a huge part of a Juniors job is learning and if you don't spend enough time actually working you don't get enough experience. Juniors work massively fewer hours than they used to.

 

David.

[kent]

Crazy move. Spoils there whole argument and more likely to loose public support

 

Imagine if your one of those in the private sector who works more hour for less cash than previously or has a zero hours contract.

 

If it wasn't so good working for the NHS all doctors would speak with UK accents

[KFC]

In my opinion the doctors are playing right into the governments hands.

 

I believe that the reason the government is happy to stonewall is all part of the privatisation process. The threat of doctors disappearing to Australia is just what they want to hear.

There's plenty of medical universities around the world, especially India, so I suspect that the government is happy to see doctors resign and leave the country so that they can then replace them with doctors from overseas on more hours for less money.

 

The government doesn't have to pay for the training and they get doctors on the cheap.

 

Just an extension of the system now where nurses have to do a university course and do placement training on the wards so the NHS gets nurses for free.

[Psyxologos]

Is there anybody else out there who thinks this is going to be a massive own goal? Next week the papers are going to be full of stories about people who died because treatment wasn't received. The doctors gain no leverage by harming patients.

 

Its wrong to call it a strike really in any case. Back in the day the right to strike meant forcing the mill owners to grant concessions by hitting them in their pocket. The only people hit by a doctors strike have never been able to grant them their wishes, totally innocent victims in fact, so where is the wisdom or the justice?

 

The BMA is misguided in calling this strike in my opinion, its petulance because they feel they have not been listened to. They may be right but this is not the way.

 

The junior doctors interviewed on the radio these past few days have been spouting stuff that belongs in the Student's Union debating Society. "If this doesn't work we will hold an indefinite all out strike till the Government caves in". Really? Very dignified. That's like saying if we don't get our own way we are going to start killing the patients.

 

In fact its not 'like' that is what they are saying

 

This will help you and others understand what this is all about.

[Sou'Wester]

Don't know how to feel about this issue in general but I do think this is an own goal. I'm in a profession that since January has seen my pension cut (again), my NI contribution increase 15% and my wages re-structured (apparently not a money saving measure though...). I can be expected to work 7 days a week and be sent away at short notice. Last year I had to cancel my wedding for that very reason. Oh and I'm not allowed to strike.

[Psyxologos]

Don't know how to feel about this issue in general but I do think this is an own goal. I'm in a profession that since January has seen my pension cut (again), my NI contribution increase 15% and my wages re-structured (apparently not a money saving measure though...). I can be expected to work 7 days a week and be sent away at short notice. Last year I had to cancel my wedding for that very reason. Oh and I'm not allowed to strike.

 

I think many people still do not realise that this is not primarily about their pay or long hours. It is about the effect the changes will have on patient safety, professional standards and people's health.

[grrclark]

 

I think many people still do not realise that this is not primarily about their pay or long hours. It is about the effect the changes will have on patient safety, professional standards and people's health.

That is simply not true. That maybe the message that many wish to give, they might actually believe that too, but the blunt truth is the current strike action is about Saturday pay rates.

 

Of the 16 contested points 15 were agreed by the BMA and incorporated into the agreement, the outstanding issue is Saturday pay rates.

 

The mandate for the strike is based upon a lack of agreement between employee representatives and the government, the only disagreement that now exists is Saturday pay.

 

Any suggestion to the contrary is disingenuous and misleading.

 

Many may consider that single issue is sufficient for strike action and that is their right, but it ought to be stated that is why they are striking and stop trying to dress it up as something else.

[old man]

 

This will help you and others understand what this is all about.

Exactly Sir!

 

Another astute assessment.