Blind retrieving

[lurgan wildfowler]

Hello lads,

Have a 14 month old lab bitch retrieving well to hand and steady on the whistle.

Only problem is blind retrieves, she will go maybe 30 yards on the back command but no further. I've tried gradually increasing the distance with no joy, any advice would be great

[bigbird]

Have you done memories and built up gradually to blinds? Sending on a mark then getting someone to throw another where the seen was as the dog is on the run back and sending it again?

Also don't forget that if you've consistently been doing memories/seems at around 30 yards the dog will stop at around that distance expecting it's retrieve to be somewhere near.

'Back' command as in lining it up next to you or sending it when it's a short distance away from you and sending it back?

Don't forget it's not about the long distances, vary it, short and long. I hear people saying 'ooh my dog will do a blind at 300 yards' then when I put out a shorter one it runs straight over it and blinks it!

Edited April 29, 2016 by bigbird

[SimpleSimon]

Just a couple of ideas from my own limited experience.

Try going somewhere with easy terrain (shortish grass) and put a dummy out, then walk five or six paces and place another. Don't hide them, but don't make them too obvious. Put several in a line like that and send the dog for the first one, then send her quickly back again as soon as she retrieves it. With a bit of luck she'll remember the first one and go to where she found it, and as she approaches will spot the next one. Keep sending her, make it quick so it's a fun game and her drive is up.

Another one I use: Plant several dummies in light cover, then bring the dog and let her see you throw one into the same area. Walk her away a bit for a memory retrieve, then send her back again. As she runs out walk a bit further off so she has further to return, then send her again. Stop whilst there are still a few dummies down there so that she never fails to find one.

[lurgan wildfowler]

Yeah big bird the back command when at my side It makes sense as most of the retrieves have been around that distance.

Thanks for the info lads il start off tonight and let you no how I get on

[kent]

The dog must think you always know were stuff is

Build to longer get backs with memory retrieves as mentioned already

 

Use a track or other obvious trail walk the dog to heel drop a retrieve is sees. Walk on to say 50 yards and send it

 

Work up the distance. If it fails walk it all the way to it put it on drop and puck it yourself infront of the dog

 

After a good bit of time when the dog get used start with long marks by leaving it on drop and walking out a long way before throwing while firing a shot or just yelling bang

 

If the dog has remained on drop send it

 

After it totally trusts you start on blinds

[UKPoacher]

To get the dog to go back further than it is now you might have to cheat a bit. Put the dummy out, then get the dog out and walk in an arc so that you are not going over your old track, past the dummy so the dog sees it but isn't allowed to go to it. Continue on for 40 to 50 yds then turn, sit the dog and send it. The dog will race away and retrieve. Once you've got the dog confident over that distance or further repeat but without the dog seeing the dummy. By then the dog should have broken free of its comfort zone.

[labstaff]

I find standing the dummy up helps. When the dog is running out it will naturally begin to slow and start looking. What you want is for the dog to see the dummy as it's just starting to slow and then pick up the pace again to pick it. Once the dog is not slowing at all and is going straight to it, increase the distance. As bigbird says, put shorter ones in there too so it doesn't automatically think the dummy is at X distance. Keeps the dog interested too.

[hedge]

Another option is to have ` helper` who stands about 50 yards away and throws a seen retrieve. Send the dog and repeat a couple of times. On the 2nd retrieve as the dog is coming back, get your helper to throw a 3rd (blind) dummy.

 

Then send the dog for the blind and hopefully it will go the full distance as it now understands that dummies can be found at this range.

 

It may not happen in a day as you don't want to over-train the dog but several sessions may help educate it.

 

As had been said - keep the variety so the dog isn't going into the next county anticipating the next retrieve. Some people would like a FT dog that goes dead straight for a mile for the retrieve. Others would want a dog who actually works the ground because in a shooting situation you may not be exactly sure where your quarry is.

 

We've all met a gun who claims to have shot a `high bird` that landed 300 yards away, only to send the dog and find it was 50 yards away!

[PERCE]

Another option is to have ` helper` who stands about 50 yards away and throws a seen retrieve. Send the dog and repeat a couple of times. On the 2nd retrieve as the dog is coming back, get your helper to throw a 3rd (blind) dummy.

 

Then send the dog for the blind and hopefully it will go the full distance as it now understands that dummies can be found at this range.

 

It may not happen in a day as you don't want to over-train the dog but several sessions may help educate it.

 

 

You can simplify these even further. Use white dummies on a track, the dog can see the blind when you first start doing it this way but you get it ingrained into the dogs head that when you line it up / send it there'll be something to find.

[kent]

A dog shouldn't look for a dummy on the ground at all - it should wind it!

 

For trials it's essential your dog goes in straight lines as sent. Personally I haven't the time of day for this I want my dog to run clever as it needs on the day

So follow my direction but compensate for wind strength. Direction and level of free scent that day

 

There's a saying " if you know so darn well where the bird is - go get it yourself you don't need a dog "

[PERCE]

A dog shouldn't look for a dummy on the ground at all - it should wind it!

 

 

What a clown you are.

It's called a confidence game, you need them to learn to go out.

[cocker boy]

A dog shouldn't look for a dummy on the ground at all - it should wind it!

 

For trials it's essential your dog goes in straight lines as sent. Personally I haven't the time of day for this I want my dog to run clever as it needs on the day

So follow my direction but compensate for wind strength. Direction and level of free scent that day

 

There's a saying " if you know so darn well where the bird is - go get it yourself you don't need a dog "

So you can't train the dog to run straight lines then?

[PERCE]

http://www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22711&hilit=blind&start=10

 

The method stated by Essgrouse (2nd last post)is a good way of teaching a dog to go straight. I find the white plastic posts used for horse pens okay to use as a marker & easy to carry about.

[kent]

So you can't train the dog to run straight lines then?

Yes I can but such a dog was no great asset in the field

I shoot mainly in fading or little light and need to send a dog the right way and for it to get the heck on with it while I continue shooting

[motty]

Kent, you really are odd.

Yes I can but such a dog was no great asset in the field
I shoot mainly in fading or little light and need to send a dog the right way and for it to get the heck on with it while I continue shooting

[kent]

 

What a clown you are.

It's called a confidence game, you need them to learn to go out.

 

I do not have any issues with getting my dog out

I do have an issue with dogs that lack nose or the ability to figure stuff out

 

How far you want a dog out? I have sent mine far enough for whistles not to be heard and hand signals not seen in good light. In the main I am out in the dark or semi dark and need to stay hidden

 

Standing up waving my arm about etc could make me deeply unpopular at flight time

 

Some just don't get this or look for fault in others but we do not all want the same thing

 

If I was keen on standing in a field in silly outdated clothes shooting birds so dumb they flew straight over my head in the middle of the day I should appreciate a remote control dog sans the ability to use its nose in a real useful way

 

I actually exercise dogs running them a few hundred yards on get backs onto the Moor but what I want to see is a downwind curve without the dog being sent off the mark to achieve that ( the curve the dog can decide on for itself as every day is different and they know more about scent than we can comprehend)

[kent]

Kent, you really are odd.

Odd? I like to think more less a sheep following other sheep

Your welcome to your opinion but I won't be following

 

If I wanted to trial dogs I would definitely train different But I don't

 

My mate does sheepdogs (real farm sheepdogs) non could run in a proper trial

 

I asked him.if there was a real difference one day in a farm dog and a trial one and he said ( not if you want the fell gathering six at a time) and all ( if you don't get a ewe that decides it don't want to get on the trailer)

 

It's like that with me I train for what I want and need not what another man wants

[Richie10]

I know what Kent is saying. You can over train a dog.

 

When on a marsh and you have shot a left and right, you look round to mark one and then the other comes down and you forget where the first one is as the marsh looks all the same, you want the dog to find it as you only know the general direction it came down.

If you have a dog constantly looking at you for guidance it hasn't got it's nose down looking for the felled bird or that is running in a line expecting the bird to be on that line, a dog needs it's head down to work the scent.

 

This may not be so much the case with trialing dogs, which I have no experience with.

[lee-kinsman]

A dog shouldn't look for a dummy on the ground at all - it should wind it!

 

For trials it's essential your dog goes in straight lines as sent. Personally I haven't the time of day for this I want my dog to run clever as it needs on the day

So follow my direction but compensate for wind strength. Direction and level of free scent that day

 

There's a saying " if you know so darn well where the bird is - go get it yourself you don't need a dog "

Sorry Kent. This is poor advice. A dog when sent out should always take a straight line until directed otherwise. Free hunting to the fall can take all day and if allowed to, every dog would do this-and disrupt all other game on the way.

 

And as far as this nonsense saying goes " if you know so darn well where the bird is - go get it yourself you don't need a dog" there is also another, "don't have a dog and bark yourself". Why would a person trek 40,50 or 100 yds and disrupt the shoot whether it be walked up, wildfowling, driven or otherwise to retrieve shot game seen or unseen.

 

At the end of the day whether the retrieve is visable to the handlers eye or not the general area is the closest a person can get the dog and then it must use it's nose.

Edited May 11, 2016 by lee-kinsman

[Ashd13ntt]

It's good your dog is coming on well, each dog, as we are, are individuals and react differently to training. One thing that I have always used in my training (although I don't consider myself a pro) is when retrieving, I always use the same place. The dummy, ball or whatever is used is always in the same area. The dog must become confident with you as the handler and the area it is hunting in during its early lessons. It is all about confidence, if your dog is trained in the same area in the early days then it knows whenever you send it there will be a reward in the way of a retrieve. I always start with a "seen" retrieve using a soft tone in my voice, then I build up to "memory" retrieves and build up the distance, the further the retrieve the firmer my command becomes. Once I have built up to 100 yards and the dog is confident "flying out to the retrieve" then it's time to introduce a blind and I always reduce the retrieve to 50 yards or so, again using a firm command. This may take weeks, it may take months, only move on when your dog is ready and is 100% successful. I have trained all my dogs in the same way and not come across any issues with sending a dog back out on a retrieve, even my spaniel would go back on a blind in excess of 200 yards. The key is using the same piece of ground and building up confidence to the blind. Once you have cracked it you can then build up your distances and obstacles.

 

Whichever advice you take, good luck and I hope it works out for you both. There is nothing better than a loyal and well trained companion!

[lee-kinsman]

It's good your dog is coming on well, each dog, as we are, are individuals and react differently to training. One thing that I have always used in my training (although I don't consider myself a pro) is when retrieving, I always use the same place. The dummy, ball or whatever is used is always in the same area. The dog must become confident with you as the handler and the area it is hunting in during its early lessons. It is all about confidence, if your dog is trained in the same area in the early days then it knows whenever you send it there will be a reward in the way of a retrieve. I always start with a "seen" retrieve using a soft tone in my voice, then I build up to "memory" retrieves and build up the distance, the further the retrieve the firmer my command becomes. Once I have built up to 100 yards and the dog is confident "flying out to the retrieve" then it's time to introduce a blind and I always reduce the retrieve to 50 yards or so, again using a firm command. This may take weeks, it may take months, only move on when your dog is ready and is 100% successful. I have trained all my dogs in the same way and not come across any issues with sending a dog back out on a retrieve, even my spaniel would go back on a blind in excess of 200 yards. The key is using the same piece of ground and building up confidence to the blind. Once you have cracked it you can then build up your distances and obstacles.

 

Whichever advice you take, good luck and I hope it works out for you both. There is nothing better than a loyal and well trained companion!

:good: