223 or 22-250???

[rjimmer]

.22250 i can not say enough good things about them, i am on my third now in 40 years of using them,

Did you buy them new? Would you buy a second hand 22-250? If so, would you have bought one of your discards?

[foosa]

Genuinely interested now if anyone else uses game king or other similar bullet in a 22cf to save on pelt damage? I know it's a different kettle of frogs but I've hit a few fox with 243 soft points designed to hold together better than varmint bullets all with messy results.

[welshwarrior]

Different areas of the country have different favourites so shops hold different ammo stocks.

 

They'll all kill foxes and rabbits very dead under lamping ranges as well as each other there's no red witches in this realm John Snow.

 

Buy what you can feed and the rifle you like, I'd ask for a 22 cf.

[TONY R]

Did you buy them new? Would you buy a second hand 22-250? If so, would you have bought one of your discards?

Got my first .22250 in 1977 a heavy barreled BSA CF2 new. was a sub half inch gun on reloads never fired a factory round in it ever, Best round was Norma 202 34 grains 50 grain hornadays. kept that BSA till 1989 it was sold to a firearms dealer in Glosop as it was going off a bit with 5000 rounds through it, And no i would not have bought that gun to use at that point. But it did go on to be re barreled in .708.

In 1990 i Purchased a new Ruger No 1 B in .22250 A handy rifle but it needed a few beding issues atending to before it was as accurate as i wanted, trigger was ok but i never got it quite right and kept it as safe as i was comfortable with, some aparently do sort them out, but i never quite got there, I had a Remington 700 Custom Middlestead at the same time i had the NO1 and thus i shot less rounds through it and sold it to a friend in 1996 with 2500 rounds through it. And Yes i would have bought that gun.

1996 i got a new Tikka 595 Bedded it a little trigger adjustment and it works ok. it has had 4000 rounds through it and is still good, Shot a few less rounds through the Tikka As again i had the middlestead for some of the time so it shared the use a little.

Would buy the Tikka Again, But plan on re barreling it anyway so can not see me selling it.

I Like the .22250 as i said i can not say enough good things about them.

[rjimmer]

Did any of them have stainless barrels? 5,000 rounds sounds pretty good. I'm trying to sell a .270 at the moment without much success, even though it's had less than 200 rounds through it.

[TONY R]

Did any of them have stainless barrels? 5,000 rounds sounds pretty good. I'm trying to sell a .270 at the moment without much success, even though it's had less than 200 rounds through it.

If its off at 200 rounds was it ever on. .22250 1 in 14 twist and barrel managment rather than cleaning every last micron of copper out after use helps with barrel life, and i tend to simply use and then look when it starts to go off , not look and fret about what might go off. My CF2 was tired but it was still sub 1 inch with some loads. The Tikka has stood up well and its still a half inch gun at the moment. will get a kreiger barrel for the rebarrel when i do it, had one on my middlestead, bbut thats another story.

.270w is a fantastic round but not trendy in the uk, the boring .243 advocates chewed this chambering to bits many years ago.

There was little merit in all the negative vibes about the .270, it was mostly the fact the .240 deer rule for england that got people wanting the minimum the .243 FITTED THE BILL NICELY.

.270S are just not popular here and only those who are in the know and bassed around useing them will want them.

200 rounds why are you selling it?

[Savhmr]

I'm in a pickle,, I'm putting in a variation to swap my 22rf for either a 223 or 22-250,, but really can't decide.. Iv done loads of reading up on both calibers,, and there doesn't seem to much difference. I will be useing them for longer range fox and rabbit that my hmr just can't get at!! As the foxes mainly have come to wary of the lamp and won't come in close enough to take a safe clean shot,, not only that I have just recently got a new permission,, a quite hilly farm with plenty of good back stops available, 55acres., what advice do u guys have. Thanks Phil

 

 

I'm guessing you're talking about ranges of 150 to 300 yds then?

 

First things first: How can you shoot at 300 yds? Unless, for fox, you can reliably put every bullet inside a 3 or 4 inch circle irrespective of calibre then the question becomes largely academic. For rabbit, you really need to be within a 2 inch circle which is 0.7moa at that distance, ie very respectable in real world conditions and beyond many shooters, especially when the wind starts to figure.

 

Bullet drops using 60 grain V-max bullets as follows:

 

223 with 200 yd zero and 1.5 inch scope height:

 

Dist (yds) Drop (inches) Wind (full value 10mph in inches)

100: -1.40 1.1

200: 0.00 4.5

300: 7.00 (ie adjust up 2.2 MOA) 10.6

 

22-250 with 200 yds zero and 1.5 inch scope height - same bullet

 

Dist (yds) Drop (inches) Wind (full value 10mph in inches)

 

100: -1.20 (above line of sight) 1

200: 0.00 4.1

300: 6.10 (ie adjust up 1.9 MOA) 9.8

As you can see, the reality is that there's very little difference between them in real life. Where the 22-250 scores is that it allows a slightly extended MPBR value (ie crosshairs on and squeeze trigger) for fox. Where it loses out is that it is slightly more costly in powder to load for and is more of a barrel burner, eroding the throat faster than 223 which may not be an issue of you're not shooting target.

For your purposes, there's nothing to choose between them to 300 yds. This laser trajectory is a myth...nothing has a laser like trajectory. By 500 yards, there's still only 6 inches between them with the 22-250 dropping 39.5 inches by then.

The 223 would be a little cheaper to load for, is very accurate and generally most places reliably stock 223 ammo which is what makes it a smart choice if getting hold of ammo is iffy.

.222 would also be worth considering.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Savhmr

[rjimmer]

If its off at 200 rounds was it ever on.

200 rounds why are you selling it?

It was my first centrefire and got seduced by the numbers. Once I got a synthetic SSG in .308 that I could get wet, I just didn't take it out any more. I've got a second .308(Tikka) on the way and have to make room for it on the FAC. Like you say, .270 is out of fashion, even a Sauer-based rifle.

[foosa]

 

 

 

I'm guessing you're talking about ranges of 150 to 300 yds then?

 

First things first: How can you shoot at 300 yds? Unless, for fox, you can reliably put every bullet inside a 3 or 4 inch circle irrespective of calibre then the question becomes largely academic. For rabbit, you really need to be within a 2 inch circle which is 0.7moa at that distance, ie very respectable in real world conditions and beyond many shooters, especially when the wind starts to figure.

 

Bullet drops using 60 grain V-max bullets as follows:

 

223 with 200 yd zero and 1.5 inch scope height:

 

Dist (yds) Drop (inches) Wind (full value 10mph in inches)

100: -1.40 1.1

200: 0.00 4.5

300: 7.00 (ie adjust up 2.2 MOA) 10.6

 

22-250 with 200 yds zero and 1.5 inch scope height - same bullet

 

Dist (yds) Drop (inches) Wind (full value 10mph in inches)

 

100: -1.20 (above line of sight) 1

200: 0.00 4.1

300: 6.10 (ie adjust up 1.9 MOA) 9.8

 

As you can see, the reality is that there's very little difference between them in real life. Where the 22-250 scores is that it allows a slightly extended MPBR value (ie crosshairs on and squeeze trigger) for fox. Where it loses out is that it is slightly more costly in powder to load for and is more of a barrel burner, eroding the throat faster than 223 which may not be an issue of you're not shooting target.

 

 

For your purposes, there's nothing to choose between them to 300 yds. This laser trajectory is a myth...nothing has a laser like trajectory. By 500 yards, there's still only 6 inches between them with the 22-250 dropping 39.5 inches by then.

 

The 223 would be a little cheaper to load for, is very accurate and generally most places reliably stock 223 ammo which is what makes it a smart choice if getting hold of ammo is iffy.

 

.222 would also be worth considering.

But does the 223 have enough about it to expand its bullets effectively at these ranges?

[rjimmer]

But does the 223 have enough about it to expand its bullets effectively at these ranges?

What velocity do you think is necessary?

[foosa]

No idea, to be honest I'm not sure what my 22" t3 spits them out at, I have a selection of different 224 bullets from target, varmint hollow point, ballistic tip, soft point, at weights from 50 to 70 grain I've collected over the years so I think an experiment with each at different ranges is due to judge performance. Many years ago I settled on 55 v max and never had a problem shooting foxes out to 300 yards but never considered heavier built bullets.

[malkiserow]

 

 

 

I'm guessing you're talking about ranges of 150 to 300 yds then?

 

First things first: How can you shoot at 300 yds? Unless, for fox, you can reliably put every bullet inside a 3 or 4 inch circle irrespective of calibre then the question becomes largely academic. For rabbit, you really need to be within a 2 inch circle which is 0.7moa at that distance, ie very respectable in real world conditions and beyond many shooters, especially when the wind starts to figure.

 

Bullet drops using 60 grain V-max bullets as follows:

 

223 with 200 yd zero and 1.5 inch scope height:

 

Dist (yds) Drop (inches) Wind (full value 10mph in inches)

100: -1.40 1.1

200: 0.00 4.5

300: 7.00 (ie adjust up 2.2 MOA) 10.6

 

22-250 with 200 yds zero and 1.5 inch scope height - same bullet

 

Dist (yds) Drop (inches) Wind (full value 10mph in inches)

 

100: -1.20 (above line of sight) 1

200: 0.00 4.1

300: 6.10 (ie adjust up 1.9 MOA) 9.8

As you can see, the reality is that there's very little difference between them in real life. Where the 22-250 scores is that it allows a slightly extended MPBR value (ie crosshairs on and squeeze trigger) for fox. Where it loses out is that it is slightly more costly in powder to load for and is more of a barrel burner, eroding the throat faster than 223 which may not be an issue of you're not shooting target.

For your purposes, there's nothing to choose between them to 300 yds. This laser trajectory is a myth...nothing has a laser like trajectory. By 500 yards, there's still only 6 inches between them with the 22-250 dropping 39.5 inches by then.

The 223 would be a little cheaper to load for, is very accurate and generally most places reliably stock 223 ammo which is what makes it a smart choice if getting hold of ammo is iffy.

.222 would also be worth considering.

 

 

 

Very interesting, I assume the .223 is something like a 1:8 twist rather than the more common 1:14 as it is running 60 grains in these figures. Not sure what twist the .22 250 needs to be for 60 grain bullets.

 

Out of interest, how do the figures look with a .243 propelling 60 grain bullets?

[TONY R]

But does the 223 have enough about it to expand its bullets effectively at these ranges?

Well that depends on if the .223 will be both accurate enough to to be effective on a rabbit at that range which is what the OP wanted, And then its got to be accurate at right at the top of its velocity range, then the bullet has to be designed to expand effectively at that same range. .223s are not a that much quicker than a .222 and hornaday felt fit to develop the sx bullets for reliable expansion at longer ranges, with the slower 22s like .222 i based on experience would put the .223 firmly in that band.

Top accuracy which the OP will need for long range, as just as much chance of being no where near maximun velocity as it as being smack on maximum velocity.

.223s can work at full or even ovder pressure loads, my mates takes a brimmed case 27 grains varget and its on the money, yet i know of a Remingtom varmint .223 that had to be backed off from max by close to 200fps slower to get similar pressision.

[foosa]

This all gets even trickier when you consider barrel length, different powder charges, primers and their effects on chamber pressures, I use a maximum load blc2, federal 205m in a 22" tikka barreled 1 in 8. Accuracy to 300 yards isn't even a consideration for my combo, have you ever chronographed your 22250 to see what it does in real life? Do your gameking bullets fragment or just mushroom and exit cleanly ish?

[TONY R]

No idea, to be honest I'm not sure what my 22" t3 spits them out at, I have a selection of different 224 bullets from target, varmint hollow point, ballistic tip, soft point, at weights from 50 to 70 grain I've collected over the years so I think an experiment with each at different ranges is due to judge performance. Many years ago I settled on 55 v max and never had a problem shooting foxes out to 300 yards but never considered heavier built bullets.

Its not just abbout construction if you want expansion buy taipans or Berger MEFs if they still call them MEFs i dont use them now just taipans.

The game king is a good choice for long range as its proved accurate but it is not ideal in the .223, do a quick search on predator masters on these bbullets and slower .22s some coyote hunters love them others hate them its ussualy those with .223s who hate them.

If your a 70 grain man in your .223 you should have seen only too well how lobing a bullet at long is not exactly devastation personified. Dead perhaps wrecked not so much. Velocity gives you an edge but it has to be accurate or its no good, now if you have to back off max pressures to get the accuracy for long range then the .22250 will still be going much faster than a .223, i can honestly say i have never encountered a .22250 that needed to be backed down to .223 velocity to get acceptable accuracy, but i have seen a .223 that had to be backed down to .222 velocity to get there.

Now .222s are awesome they are efficient very accurate and forggiving, .223 not so much, .222s were defeated by the military picking .223 5.56, and every body and his granny buying them, the .222 just went out of fassion, it did not sudenly become inaccurate. People who use em know this with out me mentioning it.

[malkiserow]

I use a .222 but worth mentioning to the OP that without very considerable care and accuracy you can very easily make a right mess of a rabbit. Good news if for fox bait but not good if the rabbit is for the pot. I do shoot some rabbits with the .222 but often leave them and go back with a rimfire.

[foosa]

I only ever used 70s for target, maybe it's just me and mine then but with 55v max I can ping rabbits, crows all day long out to 300 so no concerns with accuracy. As I said I use a full charge of blc2 and foxes hit to similar distances certainly expand the bullet judging by the exit mess. That's why I don't feel I need anymore as my combo, bullet choice works for me with devastating accuracy and expansion.

[rjimmer]

If a 40grn 22rf subsonic bullet leaving the barrel at less than 1100 fps will kill a rabbit at 100 yrds, I think a 60rn .224 bullet from a .223 doing over 2000 fps at 300 yrds should be sufficient.

Edited May 3, 2016 by rjimmer

[TONY R]

This all gets even trickier when you consider barrel length, different powder charges, primers and their effects on chamber pressures, I use a maximum load blc2, federal 205m in a 22" tikka barreled 1 in 8. Accuracy to 300 yards isn't even a consideration for my combo, have you ever chronographed your 22250 to see what it does in real life? Do your gameking bullets fragment or just mushroom and exit cleanly ish?

Chrono everything even shotgun how can you work long range performance out without knowing how fast its going.

Game kings Are built a lot tougher than v max etc Its a bullet made for Game , And fur is not generaly a pre requisite if harvesting game so it is not nessasarily going to simply drill holes, but in a .22250 they are far from explosive at long range, they make a good hole and generaly exit and do bone well handy for long range

I could have been a lot harder on .223 than the game king trust me, shoot some 52 matchkings through your .223 at 300 yards the tell me the fox pelt is worthless.

Match king is the way i will go if harvesting pelts, not quite FMJ but probably the best choice for Fur friendly bullet in the >22s

[TONY R]

I only ever used 70s for target, maybe it's just me and mine then but with 55v max I can ping rabbits, crows all day long out to 300 so no concerns with accuracy. As I said I use a full charge of blc2 and foxes hit to similar distances certainly expand the bullet judging by the exit mess. That's why I don't feel I need anymore as my combo, bullet choice works for me with devastating accuracy and expansion.

You will with v maxes ot nozlers sivertip etc its what they are for. I like Taipans but if getting common available bullets i like sierra 50 grain sp varminters in the .22250, the blitz were too explosive and did not group quite as well in any of my .22250s. I do use v max 50s they work but i only use them because i can get them eassy if the truth be known i dont like them, prefer sierra everyting for accuracy.

[foosa]

Chrono everything even shotgun how can you work long range performance out without knowing how fast its going.

Game kings Are built a lot tougher than v max etc Its a bullet made for Game , And fur is not generaly a pre requisite if harvesting game so it is not nessasarily going to simply drill holes, but in a .22250 they are far from explosive at long range, they make a good hole and generaly exit and do bone well handy for long range

I could have been a lot harder on .223 than the game king trust me, shoot some 52 matchkings through your .223 at 300 yards the tell me the fox pelt is worthless.

Match king is the way i will go if harvesting pelts, not quite FMJ but probably the best choice for Fur friendly bullet in the >22s

What velocity you getting with the gamekings, as I have no need to save pelt damage I go for varmint bullets and will do until I get a fox stand up to a boiler room shot, as I said I'll load some different bullets up and see what happens at various ranges. Just wondering if anyone has experience of varmint bullets not expanding in any 22cf? Oh yeah, I work long range performance out by developing a load and actually using it down the range to check exactly what it's doing accuracy wise at ranges out to what I'm expecting it to be used. Never Chrono a shotgun in my life, still have a silver world championship medal and several home international podium finishes though. Edited May 3, 2016 by foosa

[foosa]

Just reading back through this lot and the biggest deciding factor here for me is I simply don't need a stronger built bullet for foxing as I get the performance I want from what I'm using.

[TONY R]

What velocity you getting with the gamekings, as I have no need to save pelt damage I go for varmint bullets and will do until I get a fox stand up to a boiler room shot, as I said I'll load some different bullets up and see what happens at various ranges. Just wondering if anyone has experience of varmint bullets not expanding in any 22cf? Oh yeah, I work long range performance out by developing a load and actually using it down the range to check exactly what it's doing accuracy wise at ranges out to what I'm expecting it to be used. Never Chrono a shotgun in my life, still have a silver world championship medal and several home international podium finishes though.

3780 fps with the 55s i need more barrel to get anymore speed, i will have a 26/28 inch barrel when i do rebarrel it.

[foosa]

3780 fps with the 55s i need more barrel to get anymore speed, i will have a 26/28 inch barrel when i do rebarrel it.

that's pretty nippy for a 55g, what barrel is that out of?

[TONY R]

Just reading back through this lot and the biggest deciding factor here for me is I simply don't need a stronger built bullet for foxing as I get the performance I want from what I'm using.

What you need to ask yourself is do you even need a .223 just throw your clay busting siver at them, sounds like if that hit em heck thy would be mince meat.