223 or 22-250???

[Dougy]

Fine I can live with that. ;-)

[TONY R]

Must have heard that a few times then hey.

[scotslad]

Whats with all this rubbish about "downloading" this and "uploading" that

 

Why on earth go to the trouble of it all. Its still going to make a bang for goodness sake. All back stops should be good from Air rifle to any other firearm,so why fuss about speed or energy.

 

 

There is ONE very important thing above all this waffle about mucking about with loads up or down,, and thats accuracy.

 

Any 22 center fire will kill a Fox if the aim is good . and that,s ANY 22cf loaded as per intended use not faffed around with.

Blimey any newcomer reading some replies to the original question "223 or 22.250" will be totally baffled

 

Well said dougy.

Wot a lot of tripe has been spouted, lifes really too short to bother reading all this never mind loading up/down the various calibres/bullet wieghts.

 

Either the 222, 223 or 22.250 will do all u ever really need at normal ranges, the skill of nut behind butt is far more important and practising knowing which ever calibre u decide on.

Just go for which ever is more readily available in ur area, despite the 4 pages the pratical difference is tiny

[CharlieT]

 

Well said dougy.

Wot a lot of tripe has been spouted, lifes really too short to bother reading all this never mind loading up/down the various calibres/bullet wieghts.

 

Either the 222, 223 or 22.250 will do all u ever really need at normal ranges, the skill of nut behind butt is far more important and practising knowing which ever calibre u decide on.

Just go for which ever is more readily available in ur area, despite the 4 pages the pratical difference is tiny

 

Well, that's you, Dougy and me then.

 

Some of the twaddle spouted in this thread has to be read to be believed.

[kent]

Well the fast running 22-250 isn't needed for lamping foxes or shooting rabbits for the pot were it's very counter productive

 

Running all the time at 3600- 3900 is going to drastically shorten barrel life as well

 

That said try shooting 4-500 yards with a hornet- it's darn near impossible and 300 yard daylight foxes are pretty much out also

 

I do all my centrefire shooting with two rifles as 22 cf isn't all deer legal

Being frank after many decades of shooting if it was legal for me to shoot all deer with 22 cf or if I decided I had shot my last bambi then the 22-250 is the gun a should choose now ( one gun two loads) no heavy bullets either of fast twist rates. At full stack the 22-250 runs about equal to 243 for long range trajectory and wind - but the 243 is everything legal ( you can't do so much with downloads though with it)

It hasn't always been that way I once had way too many rifles but learning one gun with two loads can pay big dividends

It's not target shooting I am into these days

 

One should choose what suits you

Edited May 5, 2016 by kent

[TONY R]

One of the key points the op touched on in the opening post was LONG RANGE FOX AND RABBITS . To me the higher velocity .22250 is im my opinion superior at LONG RANGE period.

[scotslad]

His permission he mentions is 55 acres

[kent]

You have to remember long range means different things to different people and 55 acres!

200 yards is a very long range rabbit if you are used to rimfire and a 200 yard fox is best not thought about

 

200 yard bunny and a full stack 23-250 and it's bunny soup

[scotslad]

I know wot ur saying kent. But u could stillmake bunny soup at 200m with a 222 or 223

 

For me the calibre are so similar out to prob 300+m there will be next to no practically noticable difference anyway, even at further distances where drop is larger does it really make much difference wether u dail in/hold over 9" instead of 6".

Any of the 22cf calibres will have more than enough energy to kill wot it hits well past any range most people can accurately shoot

 

The weakest link will always be skill level of the person, possibly then the scope/mounts well before the calibre comes into play.

Doubt most shooters will have the skill to actually get any real benefit of shooting a 22.250 over a 222 or 223, if u can accurately shoot a fox at 300m with a 22.250 u will have the skill/ability to shoot it at 300m with a 222, just u will be dialing in slightly more.

 

 

The slight extra energy only really makes a difference when using it on the larger deer sp (which is illegal anyway) but a lot of hinds will be taken by the 22.250

Edited May 7, 2016 by scotslad

[kent]

Yes bunny soup avoidance is ammo choice and no more than 3000 fps at the muzzle with head shots

It's the kinetic energy that needs reducing hence the mention of downloads in the thread. Bullets should not be very fast fragmenting

All three can be downloaded but stepping up a 222 / 223 to 22-250 velocity is just not wise at all

 

300 is the very range the 22-250 will show it's legs over the others 400 and it's a clear choice - but in fairness not many need that or can steer that

[TONY R]

55 acres is a big enough lump of land for some very long range shots, when i went to school we we told an acre was a block of land with side roughly 70 yards long, this is backed up by my orchard which is just over an acre and is 70 yards wide and 88 yards long.

300 yards is not hard for an accurate rifle on a rabbit or fox, and the .22250 is way superior on mid range and terminal deviation than the .223. To 300 its pretty much a done deal with the .22250 if you can shoot.

[kent]

Terminal deviation now there's a term you don't hear every day

[TONY R]

Yes bunny soup avoidance is ammo choice and no more than 3000 fps at the muzzle with head shots

It's the kinetic energy that needs reducing hence the mention of downloads in the thread. Bullets should not be very fast fragmenting

All three can be downloaded but stepping up a 222 / 223 to 22-250 velocity is just not wise at all

 

300 is the very range the 22-250 will show it's legs over the others 400 and it's a clear choice - but in fairness not many need that or can steer that

With the .22250 you can really get them motoring with powders like Vitavouri N 5 series powdrers the case capacity and nature of these powders makes this possible, and with a long enough barrel you could near enough get a .22250 with a 50 52 grain bullet to the same vellocity a .223 can acchieve with a 40grain bullet how can that not be viewed as an advantage.

You could lob a 70 grain downrange in a .223 i guess if you had a tighter twist than a 1 in 14 .22250 but in the same vein you could get an 80 grain doing the same job to 500 yards in a tight twist .22250. No .223 is simply not as good at long range regardless of scenario.

Edited May 7, 2016 by TONY R

[rjimmer]

I think the main question would be "Is it worth it?" If your rifle will produce good accuracy with some of the cheap brands of ammunition, .223 with a stainless steel barrel would be my choice. It will see me out.

[TONY R]

I think the main question would be "Is it worth it?" If your rifle will produce good accuracy with some of the cheap brands of ammunition, .223 with a stainless steel barrel would be my choice. It will see me out.

Now that is exactly right, not everyone is capable or wants ultimate pressision from a rifle at true long range.

And if shooting foxes and rabbits at moderate ranges is what a person wants then fine, but its not what the op wantede said LONG RANGE. Now what long range is to one person may not be the same to another, long range is a very broad term.

.22250 is flat shooting enough to get to 320 to 350 and not be over the top mid range by much for a kill on a rabbit, with barely any guestimation on the part of the shooter regarding trajectory, and even if you look at cross winds the higher velocity with heavy bullets gives the .22250 the edge. I think quite a few on this thread simply dont do long range on living targets with their .223s and could probably get by with a .22 magnum.

[kent]

With the .22250 you can really get them motoring with powders like Vitavouri N 5 series powdrers the case capacity and nature of these powders makes this possible, and with a long enough barrel you could near enough get a .22250 with a 50 52 grain bullet to the same vellocity a .223 can acchieve with a 40grain bullet how can that not be viewed as an advantage.

You could lob a 70 grain downrange in a .223 i guess if you had a tighter twist than a 1 in 14 .22250 but in the same vein you could get an 80 grain doing the same job to 500 yards in a tight twist .22250. No .223 is simply not as good at long range regardless of scenario.

 

I just cannot see what this has to do with my post

At 300 yards the biggest factor is the shooter, thier ability to read the wind and make the shot - you cannot change that with any factor of note

Heavy weight bullets and faster twist mean nothing away from the range but still look up the below

 

Look what Laurie Holland did with a 223 all be modified from the standard rifle we are discussing in FTR a couple of years back

[rjimmer]

Now that is exactly right, not everyone is capable or wants ultimate pressision from a rifle at true long range.......I think quite a few on this thread simply dont do long range on living targets with their .223s and could probably get by with a .22 magnum.

Perhaps they engage superior fieldcraft instead.

[scotslad]

Or possibly some have more respect for there quarry, even if it is vermin.

No matter wot calibre ur shooting or how good a shot u are the risk of wounding will be rising with every m

 

In all the years i've been involved with shooting never felt the need or needed to shoot a rifle out past 250ish m.

 

To shoot at these vast ranges ur generally setting urself up on purpose 400m's away from a likely target just to take a long shot, often u could stalk in closer

 

The vast majority of uk shooters do not home load and would not have the ablity to make any difference.

 

If ur going to all this bother of home loading up/down i'm sure there are other wildcat rounds that will give the 22.250 a run for its money.

 

An average joe shooting factory ammo up to 300m will never see any difference.

 

Go for the rifle available easist locally with cheapest ammo, if ur lucky ur choosen rifle will shoot privi's well, only about 10ish quid a box which is cheap for cf ammo. Unfortunately not all rifle will group with it.

But most important thing is to get out and practice and get to know ur calibre/bullet choice at different ranges

[Dougy]

Scotslad, some folk can't see the wood for the trees. Over complicating things see to be far more important than the simplest ways.

Each to there own I suppose.

[TONY R]

I just cannot see what this has to do with my post

At 300 yards the biggest factor is the shooter, thier ability to read the wind and make the shot - you cannot change that with any factor of note

Heavy weight bullets and faster twist mean nothing away from the range but still look up the below

 

Look what Laurie Holland did with a 223 all be modified from the standard rifle we are discussing in FTR a couple of years back

I should have highlighted it, edited now in my post.

[TONY R]

Or possibly some have more respect for there quarry, even if it is vermin.

No matter wot calibre ur shooting or how good a shot u are the risk of wounding will be rising with every m

 

In all the years i've been involved with shooting never felt the need or needed to shoot a rifle out past 250ish m.

 

To shoot at these vast ranges ur generally setting urself up on purpose 400m's away from a likely target just to take a long shot, often u could stalk in closer

 

The vast majority of uk shooters do not home load and would not have the ablity to make any difference.

 

If ur going to all this bother of home loading up/down i'm sure there are other wildcat rounds that will give the 22.250 a run for its money.

 

An average joe shooting factory ammo up to 300m will never see any difference.

 

Go for the rifle available easist locally with cheapest ammo, if ur lucky ur choosen rifle will shoot privi's well, only about 10ish quid a box which is cheap for cf ammo. Unfortunately not all rifle will group with it.

But most important thing is to get out and practice and get to know ur calibre/bullet choice at different ranges

With the best will in the world this goes with the territory if you dont want to wound anuthing anytime then dont shoot at anything thats alive.

If you are consistantlyt wounding creatures time after time causing suffering, its not only imoral its illegal never mind anything else.

If you want to take the time effort expence and dedication to participate in your chosen form of sport, you will get your side of the equasion right, Thats ensuring your kit is well up to the job.

Then when you have it all where it needs to be you can hunt at long range humanely and legaly, there will be woundings but it will be acceptable both to the highest practical moral standards and those expected by the law. if thats not showing respect for your quary what is.

[Paul223]

Sorry to intrude, is the 223 a quieter rifle than 22250 if both were moderated, as am interested in thread but my shooting area contains houses.

Yes noticeably so.

[Savhmr]

I think that all this nonsense talk of velocity and laser-gun trajectories is missing the point completely. Velocity isn't worth a damn without accuracy, and in many cases where carcass damage matters, sub 3000fps MV is preferable. It's the nut behind the butt that matters NOT the latest whizz bang calibre for long shots. A few points...the OP isn't talking about ultra long range shots but what I'd guess is 150 to 250 yards, ie within humane distances to ensure precision clean kills. On a still day a really good shot, armed with a rangefinder and 22LR could make a 150yds shot (not that you would on a live target mind). The best practise in fact for longer range shooting is, I'm convinced, practise with a 22LR on small steel targets Learn to read the wind and compensate for it. That's needed for all calibres...none are immune from wind. A 15mph wind full value even using a 22-250 is still a whopping 8.4 inches based on a 50g Vmax at 4000fps, so a little reality needs to be applied by some.

 

By comparison, a 69g TMK fired from a 223, same distance at around 2,900fps, same wind needs 11 inches correction, so the reality is there's not a lot in it and both calibres need skilful wind judgement at distance, just like ANY calibre. The trajectory is easily compensated for and quality range finders are affordable. Most people distance shooting can compensate very easily for trajectory but most, if honest, will find reliable adjustment for cross winds a lot harder to gauge and miss accordingly. This assumes of course that the rifle is sub MOA accurate and the shooter capable of reliable sub MOA shots at 250 yds.

 

A bit of reality is needed on some of these discussions. It sometimes reads that the proponents of these faster calibres haven't done much distance work, especially when the breeze has whipped up a bit! It's understandable that people will want to champion what THEY shoot but the OP was asking advice for what is assumed to be reasonable ranges in vermin species and the reality is that ANY 22CF will do the trick. 223 seems to be universally easy to get hold of ammo, plus is easy and cheap to reload for so would be my recommendation for that reason alone. Any of them would do the job.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Savhmr

[TONY R]

I think that all this nonsense talk of velocity and laser-gun trajectories is missing the point completely. Velocity isn't worth a damn without accuracy, and in many cases where carcass damage matters, sub 3000fps MV is preferable. It's the nut behind the butt that matters NOT the latest whizz bang calibre for long shots. A few points...the OP isn't talking about ultra long range shots but what I'd guess is 150 to 250 yards, ie within humane distances to ensure precision clean kills. On a still day a really good shot, armed with a rangefinder and 22LR could make a 150yds shot (not that you would on a live target mind). The best practise in fact for longer range shooting is, I'm convinced, practise with a 22LR on small steel targets Learn to read the wind and compensate for it. That's needed for all calibres...none are immune from wind. A 15mph wind full value even using a 22-250 is still a whopping 8.4 inches based on a 50g Vmax at 4000fps, so a little reality needs to be applied by some.

 

By comparison, a 69g TMK fired from a 223, same distance at around 2,900fps, same wind needs 11 inches correction, so the reality is there's not a lot in it and both calibres need skilful wind judgement at distance, just like ANY calibre. The trajectory is easily compensated for and quality range finders are affordable. Most people distance shooting can compensate very easily for trajectory but most, if honest, will find reliable adjustment for cross winds a lot harder to gauge and miss accordingly. This assumes of course that the rifle is sub MOA accurate and the shooter capable of reliable sub MOA shots at 250 yds.

 

A bit of reality is needed on some of these discussions. It sometimes reads that the proponents of these faster calibres haven't done much distance work, especially when the breeze has whipped up a bit! It's understandable that people will want to champion what THEY shoot but the OP was asking advice for what is assumed to be reasonable ranges in vermin species and the reality is that ANY 22CF will do the trick. 223 seems to be universally easy to get hold of ammo, plus is easy and cheap to reload for so would be my recommendation for that reason alone. Any of them would do the job.

I can assure you i an not in that number, and i dont care who shoots the calibres i do, and the OP mentioned LONG RANGE> PERIOD.

[Savhmr]

...in which case the points I raised are especially relevant