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Now I know this topic has probably been done to death but I just wanted to share my experience and what I have learned. The home office guidance says that you must have experience shooting small bore 'in the field' prior to being granted a centrefire in the field. On my initial application they put down my .243 for target only despite target ammo not really being available in that calibre.

 

So I rang up the firearms department (this is after having my FAC shooting .22lr in the field for a couple of years) and said I needed the conditions on the .243 changed for deer, fox and any other legal quarry as well as expanding ammunition. They said it wouldn't be a problem and to send in my license with a letter asking for the changes.

 

Next my FEO comes around my house unannounced at 3pm in the afternoon! I wasn't in but rang him the next day. He refused to grant what I had asked for without me having a DSC1 or having been mentored with evidence but said he would grant a .17hmr for fox if I needed that.

 

So I wrote to BASC. They told me that wasn't lawful and to ask them to respond in writing explaining why they have refused. So I did exactly that, they were very frosty but agreed when they hear back from the FEO.

 

What I have learned is that forces that have a mentoring policy know it isn't lawful but instead get the FEO to verbally refuse you and then get you to agree to something else so they don't have to put anything in writing. If required BASC have told me that they will take them to court but I doubt it will come to that. I will keep you updated.

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mentoring is not a bad idea imo. it has obvious flaws with people making up shooting outings. but if you are new to firearms and only had a rimfire for a few years it is understandable that your force put in place thease restrictions. it is a very big step up from rimfire to deer legal calibre i think anyone that goes out with a experienced stalker and witnesses the whole process of the stalk and gralloch would appreciate how much you learn rather than watching a video or reading a book. i was very grateful for the knowledge passed to me by a experienced stalker and i had been involved in guns and countrysports all my life

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mentoring is not a bad idea imo. it has obvious flaws with people making up shooting outings. but if you are new to firearms and only had a rimfire for a few years it is understandable that your force put in place thease restrictions. it is a very big step up from rimfire to deer legal calibre i think anyone that goes out with a experienced stalker and witnesses the whole process of the stalk and gralloch would appreciate how much you learn rather than watching a video or reading a book. i was very grateful for the knowledge passed to me by a experienced stalker and i had been involved in guns and countrysports all my life

i thought mentoring would be about gun safety not stalk and gralloch,does the OP want to shoot deer or is it for fox?

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I mentored a Mate for 3months (he was only wanting 22lr)but he had been my lamp man for 2yrs and a good lamp man at that.He took plenty of interest when I used to set the rifles up and asked plenty of question out in the field so he learnt the field craft on the go.Backstops were drilled into him while he was my lamp man,he's witnessed me leaving quite a few foxes and rabbits.My advise is safety safety safety,the actual shot is the easy part.The mentoring is in the preparation before that safety catch comes off & after the shot has been taken. My mentee's FEO was fine after the 3 months when I sent in a detailed report of what we had covered and confirmed my mentee had a clear understanding & also mentioned that he was my lamp man for 2yrs(so in reality he'd had over 2yrs mentoring)I've never had anyone accompany me on a deer stalk though as all mine have been from the heigh seats.

I have been approached recently about mentoring,but I retired from shooting in November & surrendered my licences so I had to refuse. It is a pleasing thing to do if anyone thinks about or is approached to mentor and in my experience the mentor get just as much out of it as the mentee.

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The guy doing the mentioning could be usless, how do the police check if the person doing the mentioning is up to the job. ?

Exactly my thoughts, in any other form of training the teacher is usually tested and has certificates to prove.

But with guns as long as you have the calibre your approved lol

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Exactly my thoughts, in any other form of training the teacher is usually tested and has certificates to prove.

But with guns as long as you have the calibre your approved lol

but what are the options????? sit in a classroom for a hour with someone explaining velocities types of calibre etc. then putting a few rounds into a target and you have passed your centrfire course :hmm: as said earlier the mentoring has many problems but i am just not sold on these so called centrefire courses where the only people benefiting are the course instructors.

what do you guys think is the best option for people to learn safe gun handling as well as being able to deal a deer once it has been grassed?

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but what are the options????? sit in a classroom for a hour with someone explaining velocities types of calibre etc. then putting a few rounds into a target and you have passed your centrfire course :hmm: as said earlier the mentoring has many problems but i am just not sold on these so called centrefire courses where the only people benefiting are the course instructors.

what do you guys think is the best option for people to learn safe gun handling as well as being able to deal a deer once it has been grassed?

AVS got me to do the course, and if im honest it was just a few hours of chat and a few a4 sheets of questions that you go through abd talk about after answering, then an hour or so on a range.. i foubd it interesting but id probably say going out with an experienced stalker would be benifitial.

 

Thats just my take of it...

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but what are the options????? sit in a classroom for a hour with someone explaining velocities types of calibre etc. then putting a few rounds into a target and you have passed your centrfire course :hmm: as said earlier the mentoring has many problems but i am just not sold on these so called centrefire courses where the only people benefiting are the course instructors.

what do you guys think is the best option for people to learn safe gun handling as well as being able to deal a deer once it has been grassed?

I know what you mean, but sending someone out with a unknown shooter is not very clever.

I knew a fella that used a forest as a backstop! Wouldn't wanna be taught by him :lol:

So maybe the centre fire courses taught by approved instructors isn't a bad thing ???

Obviously not all shooters are bad, I was taught by a very skilled old fella that passed on some great life skills, something that you wouldn't get from a course, but safety is the first port of call.

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what do you guys think is the best option for people to learn safe gun handling as well as being able to deal a deer once it has been grassed?

The way it was when i started shooting was you had to learn yourself. I am sure there is a course for deer stalking and shooting. The police insisting on mentoring by someone that they haven't a clue on their abilities doesn't make sense to me.

Edited by ordnance
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AVS got me to do the course, and if im honest it was just a few hours of chat and a few a4 sheets of questions that you go through abd talk about after answering, then an hour or so on a range.. i foubd it interesting but id probably say going out with an experienced stalker would be benifitial.

 

Thats just my take of it...

you have a mate that can teach you all the tricks if you get him out of a tractor :)

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The way it was when i started shooting was you had to learn yourself. I am sure there is a course for deer stalking and shooting. The police insisting on mentoring by someone that they haven't a clue on their abilities doesn't make sense to me.

from what i can make of it the mentor has to be experienced and held fac for a good amount of time. but i do totally agree i have seen alot that i would still not say were safe. just seems a very grey area and no real solution to get young stalkers started

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The FEO doesnt select a Mentor,they ask you if you know someone,so you already have a rapore with the mentor. Plus seeing as you know him/her you will already know if she/he is an idiot.There is s course(if were talking deer) the DS1 &2 that is probably in the not too distant future to become compulsary(you will see the price jump up).This is an excellent course but doest mean you are experianced.Its like a passing your driving,which means you can drive yes but you have very little experiance in theory.

PS if you do know someone who is an idiot that holds FAC then you should be telling your FEO.

Edited by Davyo
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from what i can make of it the mentor has to be experienced and held fac for a good amount of time. but i do totally agree i have seen alot that i would still not say were safe. just seems a very grey area and no real solution to get young stalkers started

This is the problem I'm having. Id like to start stalking however there's no one who can show me the ropes. I know the safety side and the gralloch side of things however I don't think anything beats experience with someone who actually knows what there doing

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Just a simple question SRS, have they been watching your videos and not like anything? did they say?

Maybe try a .223 for fox rather than 17HMR

 

No nothing to do with youtube it is just their policy.

 

 

The FEO doesnt select a Mentor,they ask you if you know someone,so you already have a rapore with the mentor. Plus seeing as you know him/her you will already know if she/he is an idiot.There is s course(if were talking deer) the DS1 &2 that is probably in the not too distant future to become compulsary(you will see the price jump up).This is an excellent course but doest mean you are experianced.Its like a passing your driving,which means you can drive yes but you have very little experiance in theory.

PS if you do know someone who is an idiot that holds FAC then you should be telling your FEO.

 

The point is the law is the law. My own personal view is that if you are safe to shoot rimfire in the field then you are safe to shoot cenntrefire. And conversely if you aren't safe to shoot centrefire you aren't safe to shoot rimfire! I can understand requireing a DSC1 for large deer and I would probably do it or at least do extensive homework before pulling the trigger on a Roe. For fox and Muntjac though? I see no argument.

 

But the point here is what the law says and what the home office guidelines are. The Police do not and should not have the right to make up their own laws otherwise where does it end? This is why I am perusing this.

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It not a perfect course system but IMHO it's better than nothing and certainly better than give a guy a gun and letting him learn it as he goes that's an accident waiting to happen.

 

As for DSC1 is fine for large deer but not need for muntjack, why is that do muntjack deserve less respect than red deer etc. I believe ALL our quarry deserves our full respect.

 

I personally believe we need a formalised mentoring training system that lets the mentor know what he has to teach the 'student' instead of the mentor guessing what should be done.

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No nothing to do with youtube it is just their policy.

 

 

 

 

The point is the law is the law. My own personal view is that if you are safe to shoot rimfire in the field then you are safe to shoot cenntrefire. And conversely if you aren't safe to shoot centrefire you aren't safe to shoot rimfire! I can understand requireing a DSC1 for large deer and I would probably do it or at least do extensive homework before pulling the trigger on a Roe. For fox and Muntjac though? I see no argument.

 

But the point here is what the law says and what the home office guidelines are. The Police do not and should not have the right to make up their own laws otherwise where does it end? This is why I am perusing this.

Totally agree re rimfire,it's a nasty little round thats unpredictable & very dangerous in the wrong hands.I feel a lot better if people use rimfire before moving on to centrefire (personal opinion).Regards to the FEO and mentoring conditions, it's unfortunately the first steps towards compulsory training.However it seems that FAC applicants don't want to rock the boat when it's requested that they undergo mentoring.Its just the same as the lad I mentored held SGC before but when he applied for that, Durham suggested (but sounded more like an insist ) that he have coaching at his local clay ground.Same as the medical form it's not complsary (yet) but applicants do it to save confrontation or hassle.

I couldn't agree more with what welshwarrior has quoted.

Edited by Davyo
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After seeing some of your videos, don't take it wrong, but you come across as a little naive, green and maybe a little immature so personally, I think k what they are asking would be the bare minimum needed. It just how you come across on your videos.

 

Centrefire and rimfire are to different beast, yes, both will hurt but a 243 doing 3200+fps with a 100 grain bullet is a far cry from your 22lr with 40gn running 1100fps.

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Don't see why you shouldn't be mentored for shooting deer.

 

It's not that it would be helpful for an inexperienced person to be mentored by someone with experience.

 

Its more to do with the fact that their is nothing in Home Office guidance about implying mentoring or having to sit courses on deer stalking to have those rifles and conditions.

 

On top of that, it's bloody hard work to find someone who is willing to mentor you if you don't know someone already, even on normal shooting permission, let alone deer stalking.

Therefore a lot of people would be unable to get into the sport, with out paying for expensive courses.

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Don't see why you shouldn't be mentored for shooting deer.

 

Why should the quarry species make any difference.

The police are charged with ensuring public safety NOT with butchery and larder work.

 

I see no difference between a crow, fox or deer, taking a safe shot applies to all species.

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