Neighbour Issue

[al4x]

We have a little issue just arisen, our neighbour has decided they want to externally insulate and render their house. The issue is we have a narrow side passageway that accesses our house, we own this and the side of the neighbours house forms the boundary. The issue is obviously they are looking to add 100-150mm to this wall and move a few service pipes out by that much which will have a bit of an impact on a 3ft passageway.

Now the main thing I am questioning is does the wall form the boundary? or does the edge of their footings? bearing in mind both houses are 1900 plans are not a lot of use. The second thing which I think is more clear cut is we are in a conservation area and their house is brick so I assume needs planning which they don't have. Its a shame as we get on ok but to me its a little unreasonable.

If anyone has any clues on any bits that would be much appreciated!

[Walker570]

Any alteration to the side of the house in a conservation area normally requires planning consent. I have been through that problem myself. Very difficult how to approach it but I think a direct friendly approach with your concerns would be the best way and there may be a compromise. If they put rendering on without consent the authority can order for it's removal which is expensive ...I know!! Try the friendly approach first seeing that you already have a good relationship, at least then they cannot complain legitimately should you then approach the Planning Authority.

[Gordon R]

I would be checking with your local planning department rather quickly. If you don't want to escalate it at this point - just make a general enquiry.

[al4x]

That's my thinking, the bit I can't find any real info on is they want to increase their wall thickness on our side. Their wall has no windows and is effectively a gable wall but on the boundary. It sounds petty to moan about 100mm encroaching our side but is it our land effectively or theirs that's the dilemma!

[harrycatcat1]

S T A T U T O R Y I N S T R U M E N T S

2015 No. 596

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING, ENGLAND

The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted

Development) (England) Order 2015

A.2

In the case of a dwellinghouse on article 2(3) land

, development is not permitted by Class A

if—

(a)

it would consist of or include the cladding of any

part of the exterior of the dwellinghouse

with stone, artificial stone, pebble dash, render,

timber, plastic or tiles;

Edited August 27, 2016 by harrycatcat1

[scotslad]

Might depend on a few things

Is that ur only access to ur back garden/back of house?

How often do u use it?

How often do u wheel stuff up/down it that is tight width wise?

 

Even how big ur house/garden is, type of garden/trees etc, basically can u ever see u devolping garden or extending house or even felling large trees and things that may involve moving wide machinery where 4-6" would make a big difference to the size of machinery u could get in. Althou to be honest at 3ft ur already fairly restricted machinery wise but under 32" ur really struggling for any decent machine access

 

If u have other decent access mibee not such a big deal.

[al4x]

No other access it's basically a gap between their gable wall and ours that gives access and their wall forms the boundary. We have two side gates both attached to their house along the alley done many years before we moved in. The main one if it is removed for the render and then needs a new post will only just be possible.

We simply received notification they wanted to start in a month and no question raised as to encroaching our side of the boundary. I'm thinking we will fall out but guess will have to voice objections first and drop in the possible planning issue

Edited August 27, 2016 by al4x

[guest1957]

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Edited August 27, 2016 by guest1957

[Lord O War]

As the gabel end is a party wall they will minimum need a party wall agreement and the contractors shouldn't start until that is in place.. I can understand not wanting to fall out over it but they are being unreasonable encroaching onto your property. If 150mm is ok to take then why not 300?

[Jega]

So let me get this right ,your neighbour has decided to encroach on the alley way between your homes, without having the common decency to have a bit of a chat with you about its impact on your own home and access.

Now your worried about upsetting THEM .

Time to grow a pair my friend ,if you dont want people to walk all over dont be a door mat.

[Adge Cutler]

They will definitely require planning consent being in a conservation area.

 

The granting of this and the final finish permitted will be depend on the conservation policy of your Local authority, or they may refuse it completely.

 

The Insulation companies normally arrange the planning consent.

 

Search the Planning Portal tomorrow and see if an application has been made or PM me your post code and LA details and I will access this for you..all information is in the public domain and the application will give details of the system to be used and possibly its thickness.

 

Your parish council would have been informed also and the Planning office have a statutory obligation to write to you informing you that an application has been made which may effect the adjacent property. If you haven't received such then I suspect PP has not been obtained.

 

Don't discount the fact that the Insulation company may be unscrupulous and haven't told your neighbours they need PP, once the work is done without PP and the money paid the Enforcement Officer might even condemn it.

 

In respect of the Party Wall act 1996 this is a bit of a grey area where external insulation is concerned.. But if a Party wall surveyor is needed the applicant should meet the cost of this.

 

How do you know the statutory boundary is this wall, If the houses were built at the same time this is most unusual. It would normally be the centre line ofthe passageway. The boundary would be above ground structures in this case also. You can easily check this with the land registry.

 

To be blunt I would object to this if it were me and I would expect to see the proper procedure followed and be given some reassurance that the materials used did not form a fire hazard.

 

There are other issues to consider also, if the passage is the only means of access to the rear of the property it could be construed as the only means of escape in the event of fire.

 

You should discuss this candidly with your neighbour before taking it up with the planning authority..any objection will have to be formal in writing and posted in the public domain so your neighbours will know it was you in any event.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were to ask the neighbours "have you got Conservation area Consent ? the answer would be " the insulation company said we didn't need it ! " In which case you would probably be saving them thousands of pounds.

[al4x]

The boundary is on our title deed so we know it isn't the centre line they have no access as they access their house from the other side. We also know pp hasn't been applied for. The slightly grey area is where a wall forms a boundary is it there or is it 100mm or so out to allow for the footings to have been built on their land and gutters etc to be installed. if it was obviously our land effectively I'd object with far more confidence...

Edited August 28, 2016 by al4x

[B25Modelman]

Well if a tree branch encroaching your land border can be cut precisely at the line I am sure anything attached to a neighbours house would also be considered such. It requires planning to which you can object.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Get it stopped first thing on Tuesday morning, then tell your neighbour!

[Adge Cutler]

The boundary is on our title deed so we know it isn't the centre line they have no access as they access their house from the other side. We also know pp hasn't been applied for. The slightly grey area is where a wall forms a boundary is it there or is it 100mm or so out to allow for the footings to have been built on their land and gutters etc to be installed. if it was obviously our land effectively I'd object with far more confidence...

 

The legal boundary would be the face of the wall visible above ground. Eaves gutters and foundation projections are allowed to encroach into your property. The following link might reassure you.

http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/walls.html

 

 

At the very least they would need to seek permission to access the gable from your private property and and perhaps erect a narrow scaffolding.

 

Fundamentally even though it may be permitted development they haven't got Conservation area consent and will be breaking the Law.

 

You need to nip this in the bud and speak to the neighbour immediately.

 

It may be that you might agree to it if the system isn't too intrusive into your property but bare in mind the final finish if garish and not aesthetically pleasing would have a serious detrimental effect on the value of your property.

 

As I said before I would wager a penny to a pound the Insulation company are avoiding the proper procedures, perhaps through ignorance, but that is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

 

Don't be timid....I wouldn't worry about upsetting them... they obviously have a low opinion of you as it is or they would have come around and seen you and explained what they were going to do and sought your blessing.

 

This is quite a common problem I have experienced professionally many times and in most cases the conservation officer issued a cessation order until the application for conservation area consent was processed.

[scotslad]

The thing is in older houses around 1900's or so often did not have 'proper' foundations the way u would now, or at least in my area usually just dig down till hit hard and start building with natural stone.

So the line of the wall could be smack on he boundry.

 

If u get on well with them i would speak to them 1st before u go the planning route.

My nieghbours (well own a neighbouring holiday house and come up 5-6 times a year) objected to me doing up an old ruin.

I was raging at them more so for not even mentioning it to me 1st, althou they have never been the nicest of folk to speak to, typical settlers really.

We sort of speak now

[al4x]

That's the thing we don't want to fall out and handle it diplomatically. It would be better if the first notification wasn't a letter in the postbox saying keep missing you but to let you know work will start next month to do it.

Will talk to planning informally on Tuesday, get a feel for whether they would object and then go round and see them again. It's an old painted brick house so I think they will ruin the character, that's before we work out what they are replacing the windows with....... They front onto the pavement so when they do the front they will be encroaching on that which I can't see highways or planning being too keen on either!

[Chris Bb]

If worst comes to worst and the land really is yours right up to their wall as is, can't you simply refuse access to your land to their contractors?

 

Tricky one, this.

[Adge Cutler]

That's the thing we don't want to fall out and handle it diplomatically. It would be better if the first notification wasn't a letter in the postbox saying keep missing you but to let you know work will start next month to do it.

Will talk to planning informally on Tuesday, get a feel for whether they would object and then go round and see them again. It's an old painted brick house so I think they will ruin the character, that's before we work out what they are replacing the windows with....... They front onto the pavement so when they do the front they will be encroaching on that which I can't see highways or planning being too keen on either!

You may find you wont be able to talk to the Planning Officer as they now charge for advice and any complaints are normally required in writing.

 

You need to make written contact with Planning Control and Conservation. Assuming your in Hitchin and the regulatory authority is North Hertfordshire. the email address planning.control@north-herts.gov.uk

 

If you want to maintain a cordial relationship with your neighbour go and see them ! If you are uncomfortable about this ...send the wife around..

 

I speak from over 35 years of professional experience dealing with cases like this where the root cause of acrimony was a lack of proper communication at the outset.

 

Good luck and let us know how things progress.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Adge Cutler

[Adge Cutler]

If worst comes to worst and the land really is yours right up to their wall as is, can't you simply refuse access to your land to their contractors?

 

Tricky one, this.

If the proper consent is in place then essentially no.

 

The applicant would simply invoke the party wall act 1996 and appoint a surveyor to mediate and agree a right of access.

 

It might delay the process but at least AL4X might get some new gates out of it or other consideration.

 

Communication is the key here or lack of it.

[Walker570]

No, you can't refuse access and they can take it to a court hearing to get access enforced. As said above an approach should be made to the planning authority without further delay and be up front with the neighbour as to your concerns. Without doubt planning consent is required and extending the wall, which is exactly what they are doing, in fact moves the boundary to the surface of that extension !!!! This is not a down pipe, it is the whole wall. 9am Tuesday, get to it pronto.

The boundary is the line of the wall.

[al4x]

If the proper consent is in place then essentially no.

 

The applicant would simply invoke the party wall act 1996 and appoint a surveyor to mediate and agree a right of access.

 

It might delay the process but at least AL4X might get some new gates out of it or other consideration.

 

Communication is the key here or lack of it.

The surveyor though presumably would also work out the true boundary and I'm assuming there would be no right for them to then do the work if it was to extend onto our side. The complication being my other half is due to give birth next week so you can imagine how she is enjoying this!

Though on the other side not being especially reasonable at the moment might be a plus point!

[Adge Cutler]

The surveyor though presumably would also work out the true boundary and I'm assuming there would be no right for them to then do the work if it was to extend onto our side. The complication being my other half is due to give birth next week so you can imagine how she is enjoying this!

Though on the other side not being especially reasonable at the moment might be a plus point!

The true boundary though as you say has already been identified as the face of the gable wall on your deeds..QED. All the PW surveyor will do is rely on the same information obtained from HM Land Registry.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Adge Cutler

[Adge Cutler]

The Conservation officer wont be concerned about rights of ownership though. All they will be concerned about is enfocing conservation area planning policy...I could obtain and get planning consent for an extension on your property if I wanted to..I don't have to be the legal owner.!

 

If the neighbour follows the proper procedures and gets consent its most unlikely that they will be prevented from improving the property and reducing the Co2 footprint in doing so in line with the governments energy saving initiative.

 

The PW surveyor will mediate a agreement for access and I suggest you try and minimise the encroachment by having the minimal amount and thickness of insulation on this gable, perhaps limit it to render only with a thermal board lining applied internally.

 

I think it would be churlish to object to their proposals ultimately but the over-riding factor is that what they are doing is basically illegal.

 

You sound as though you are not confident the boundary is in fact yours? Otherwise its black and white.

 

Why not pop round and say you need a copy of the Conservation area consent for your solicitors just in case in the future there are any boundary issues when you come to sell your house. ?

 

Don't be shrinking violet you and your property will be compromised if you a are.

 

Crikey you have had three pages of free professional advice I would have charged £1500 quid for a year ago .!!

Edited August 28, 2016 by Adge Cutler

[bullet1747]

The Conservation officer wont be concerned about rights of ownership though. All they will be concerned about is enfocing conservation area planning policy...I could obtain and get planning consent for an extension on your property if I wanted to..I don't have to be the legal owner.!

 

If the neighbour follows the proper procedures and gets consent its most unlikely that they will be prevented from improving the property and reducing the Co2 footprint in doing so in line with the governments energy saving initiative.

 

The PW surveyor will mediate a agreement for access and I suggest you try and minimise the encroachment by having the minimal amount and thickness of insulation on this gable, perhaps limit it to render only with a thermal board lining applied internally.

 

I think it would be churlish to object to their proposals ultimately but the over-riding factor is that what they are doing is basically illegal.

 

You sound as though you are not confident the boundary is in fact yours? Otherwise its black and white.

 

Why not pop round and say you need a copy of the Conservation area consent for your solicitors just in case in the future there are any boundary issues when you come to sell your house. ?

 

Don't be shrinking violet you and your property will be compromised if you a are.

 

Crikey you have had three pages of free professional advice I would have charged £1500 quid for a year ago .!!

You been robbing people then it's only two pages