Pattern master code black choke

[andrewluke]

get the Pattermaster code black pigeon.it's a miracle choke,85 yard pigeons not a problem so says Andy Crow ,should not be encouraging this sort of shooting,have a look at video here(3mins 15secs) http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/344470-pigeon-shooting-explained/?do=findComment&comment=3147006 ,

[Hamster]

get the Pattermaster code black pigeon.it's a miracle choke,85 yard pigeons not a problem so says Andy Crow ,should not be encouraging this sort of shooting,have a look at video here(3mins 15secs) http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/344470-pigeon-shooting-explained/?do=findComment&comment=3147006 ,

 

Oh and we use laser range finders too on that test, some people have no idea what 85 yards looks like over decoys.

[Gordon R]

Hamster - stop "Terrorising" the choke advocates.

[Whitebridges]

get the Pattermaster code black pigeon.it's a miracle choke,85 yard pigeons not a problem so says Andy Crow ,should not be encouraging this sort of shooting,have a look at video here(3mins 15secs) http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/344470-pigeon-shooting-explained/?do=findComment&comment=3147006 ,

 

If it's good enough for crowman it'll be good enough for me. Thanks for your post Andrew, i've just ordered one to try. Should be with me tomorrow. I got suckered in!

[Hamster]

Hamster - stop "Terrorising" the choke advocates.

 

They actually even contradict themselves as in the one breath the choke is supposed to be mere IC then in the film footage Andy says he has patterned them and "they're really tight" !?!

[TONY R]

Just as I thought we have a nonsensical three shot sequence on paper and one of a live goose being killed and the writer convincing himself that he has something special in his hands ! There is ZERO proof that the standard patterns wouldn't have killed just as well, if anything the Terror choke one looked terrible.

 

Sorry but that wasn't a test .

 

The Oct issue of Sporting Shooter has an article in which Andy Crow waxes lyrical on the Code Black, well worth reading if you can and I quote :

The secret of Patternmaster chokes is not in tightening the spread of the shot - in fact the patterns on this choke are said to be comparable to ImpCyliner - but in shortening the shot string . It does this by way of a 'stud ring' within the choke, an integral part of Patternmaster's 'wad-stripping' technology. The choke pauses the wad momentarily (don't laugh) , allowing the shot to exit the gun unimpeded, and according to Patternmaster, this shortens the shot string by up to 80%. The result ? More pellets arriving on target at any one time, delivering more energy and giving cleaner kills at longer ranges.

 

If you have an ounce of sense or alternatively a little bit of experience in shooting matters, you will know that the above is just gibberish, horlicks, nonsense, rubbish, all unproved. You can say what you like but it's all hot air unless you can actually prove it.

 

There is only one way to prove these claims and that is prolonged testing on paper (meaning at least 10 shots each of various chokes) and THEN even more prolonged testing on live game such as pigeon. Here I offer £500 to anyone Andy included who can prove in blind testing that the better kills are indeed attributable to the choke and nothing else. The way this is done is at least 2 days hide shooting where two comparable ability shots are paired up one using Code Black the other the equivalent (patterning) standard choke with the same shells. They will shoot without knowing which choke they have in their gun and this will be changed at least once during the day. If and when after at least 100+ birds being killed over the 2 days at longish range it can be seen beyond reasonable doubt that Patternmaster physically kills better then he walks away with £500 and my admission of being wrong. If no quantifiable difference is noted then I get £500. I would of course be up for being paired myself but if distances prove difficult then I would be happy to see certain PW members who I know are good pigeon shots going instead, essentially backing people I've never even met.

 

Don't be fooled, there is no such thing as a better choke, they're all random the only difference being tightness which you can control via swapping to a tighter choke.

Absolutly agree 100% Only Terror make a Tighter choke that has enough constriction tightness in yoyur terminology. To deliver Suitable patterns of Large steel shot capable of effectively killing geese at Long rangefor steel I conssider Long range to be geese over 50 yards and not more than i am confident the afore said loads can humanly kill geese at.

[TONY R]

 

They actually even contradict themselves as in the one breath the choke is supposed to be mere IC then in the film footage Andy says he has patterned them and "they're really tight" !?!

That statement sir is all i needed to see you are ignorant of such matters these chokes are not constriction chokes.

What part of that dont you understand. ?

And by the way putting the emotions bar into free fall trying to bollster up your futile points is not fooling anyone.

[Hamster]

That statement sir is all i needed to see you are ignorant of such matters these chokes are not constriction chokes.

What part of that dont you understand. ?

And by the way putting the emotions bar into free fall trying to bollster up your futile points is not fooling anyone.

 

I'm only repeating what's written in the article and spoken on the video ! Andy Crow says in no uncertain terms that they really kill well, there has to be a reason for that so it's either constriction related or something else. It is the something else I'm keen to find out about because if shortening the string and forcing the pellets to arrive at the same time is responsible or even possible (particularly at range) then I'm a Viking.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Hamster

[Gordon R]

I getting just a bit confused. Other than retro chokes, I thought all chokes constricted.

[Hamster]

I getting just a bit confused. Other than retro chokes, I thought all chokes constricted.

 

No, some strip people of all their dignity.

[Gordon R]

Hamster - wadya mean?

[Hamster]

Hamster - wadya mean?

Just a silly play on words with stripping wads and those who fall for it, not directed at you honest.

[timps]

I think so i am hearing nothhing but good things about them, if i were you i would invest in one in a hearbeat.

but debate on here has the expert shooters saying otherwise.

They just run the flushest mod choke the factory threw in the box when they bought the gun, and clear the forshores of geese and ducks. .

 

 

There as been so many threads , regardless there is an ellement here that dont acept extended chokes with internal geometry superior to short flush chokes improve patterns any regardless of shot type employed, each to their own ill use what works regardless.

 

 

This is where i think a lot of the confusion stems from when people clain aftermarket chokes dont offer significant advantages over Factory choking in most guns, they simply dont hunt at the ranges some of the more proficient hunters do through choice or nassesaty.

Many although probably reasonably profficient shots technicaly, simply dont have the desire or capability to take longer range shots at waterfowl, and they never explore or impliment changes to their gun ammo choice or tecnique to enssure those long mallards for sake of debate come down clean, they are ignorant of the fact that a change of choke tube and or load can turn that unscathed apparently untouched passing duck, into a clean kill.

Long range shotgunning for anything is not in everyones remit, but even for those with the ability they cant do it without good usable patterns at long range, these are not guaranteed by screwing an x choke in a gun, but they can be a big help in accheving what you need to have an edge and be profficient at longer range.

There is no confusion at all from us so called ‘expert shooters’.

 

On the two threads that we have personally discussed this, the first topic was “are Teague’s worth the money” and the second was about extended chokes better at shooting pigeons over flush chokes using lead shot. You proffered an opinion on both which is fair enough but every time your debate goes on to extreme range large steel shot at Geese somehow being relevant to that particular thread.

 

In both those threads the OP wasn’t interested in extreme range large steel shot at Geese so the only confusion was of your making.

 

On this particular thread the OP is interested in large steel shot and your opinion is as valid as the next man, but as Hamster has already posted there is absolutely no proof just anecdotal evidence that they work better than the original chokes in every instance.

 

If you were to post unequivocal proof then maybe you could convince us all, but some of us have massive misgivings on the hype and seeing as you haven’t personally used patternmaster in a Beretta Extrema 2 you can understand why we might question your personal opinion and where you are getting your facts that they are better from.

 

Anyhow back to the OP I have no idea, they may or may not be better your call

Edited October 18, 2016 by timps

[TONY R]

 

 

 

 

There is no confusion at all from us so called ‘expert shooters’.

 

On the two threads that we have personally discussed this, the first topic was “are Teague’s worth the money” and the second was about extended chokes better at shooting pigeons over flush chokes using lead shot. You proffered an opinion on both which is fair enough but every time your debate goes on to extreme range large steel shot at Geese somehow being relevant to that particular thread.

 

In both those threads the OP wasn’t interested in extreme range large steel shot at Geese so the only confusion was of your making.

 

On this particular thread the OP is interested in large steel shot and your opinion is as valid as the next man, but as Hamster has already posted there is absolutely no proof just anecdotal evidence that they work better than the original chokes in every instance.

 

If you were to post unequivocal proof then maybe you could convince us all, but some of us have massive misgivings on the hype and seeing as you haven’t personally used patternmaster in a Beretta Extrema 2 you can understand why we might question your personal opinion and where you are getting your facts that they are better from.

 

Anyhow back to the OP I have no idea, they may or may not be better your call

I did not have you in mind when i made that statenment and it never for one second occured to me that you would include your humble self in that catagory, but hey ho quote away if it inflates your sagging ego.

[6.5x55SE]

Just a silly play on words with stripping wads and those who fall for it, not directed at you honest.

So in your opinion why Does/ is this happening.

 

10ga With Invector Plus Factory flush choke wad lands/falls say 40 yard from the end of Barrel.

Same gun same cartridge BUT Pattermaster Choke with wad retarding studs wad lands/fall 15 yrd from barrel.

12ga the results was exactly the same using a Wads retarding Choke and factory choke

[timps]

I did not have you in mind when i made that statenment and it never for one second occured to me that you would include your humble self in that catagory, but hey ho quote away if it inflates your sagging ego.

 

I think you might have missed my sarcasm in that quote about 'expert shooter' but not to worry.

 

My ego is perfectly fine and not sagging in the slightest, the day I get actually upset about the internet and my ego is they day I cancel my broadband.

 

Obviously my mistake, I assumed as the last thread you debated extended V flush chokes and superior geometry was with me. So I assumed you were classing me as an ‘expert shooter saying otherwise’… I am also not the only one on this thread that jumped to the conclusion that you were on about that thread.

 

Anyway I shall go back to just reading your posts on this thread now.

 

Have fab night .

 

much love

[Hamster]

So in your opinion why Does/ is this happening.

 

10ga With Invector Plus Factory flush choke wad lands/falls say 40 yard from the end of Barrel.

Same gun same cartridge BUT Pattermaster Choke with wad retarding studs wad lands/fall 15 yrd from barrel.

12ga the results was exactly the same using a Wads retarding Choke and factory choke

 

Where the wad falls is irrelevant is what I'm saying, what matters is what gets printed on the pattern plate. There is no proof stripping the wad is a good thing, there is plenty of reasons to believe the opposite to be true though.

[TONY R]

 

Where the wad falls is irrelevant is what I'm saying, what matters is what gets printed on the pattern plate. There is no proof stripping the wad is a good thing, there is plenty of reasons to believe the opposite to be true though.

Well come on then whats the Plenty of reasons to believe the opposite.

Edited October 18, 2016 by TONY R

[6.5x55SE]

Where the wad falls is irrelevant is what I'm saying, what matters is what gets printed on the pattern plate. There is no proof stripping the wad is a good thing, there is plenty of reasons to believe the opposite to be true though.

 

Really ?

 

So the Wads being dropped short has no effect on shot string etc

[Hamster]

Well come on then whats the Plenty of reasons to believe the opposite.

 

1) The reason plastic wads were invented in the first place was to protect the shot from abrasion inside the barrel, they also accompany the shot column for a few inches once outside the barrel which is longer than felt wads do. There is high speed slow motion footage available which shows shot is not touched by nor affected by the plastic wad so stripping it is marketing rubbish. If it had an ounce of mileage then rest assured guns used in the Olympics would have had their fixed chokes doctored to strip wads .

 

2) Keeping the shot column together for longer is known to aid in keeping the pattern tighter for longer and to this end there have been attempts to buffer the shot using various compounds, again a plastic wad staying with this column for a few inches is better than none.

 

3) You must be aware of the special 100 meter shells which feature a wad designed to stay with the shot ?

 

4) Tests have shown that it is in fact tight chokes that shorten the shot string by a tiny amount, the reason being that the closely packed pellets in front protect the main mass from the effects of wind resistance so they "yaw" less.

 

5) Comp-N-Chokes have long since claimed that they produce superior patterns by stripping wads yet we continue to be amazed by the absence of anyone finishing on the podium with them !

 

6) Fibre/felt wads haven't even got a wad to be stripped so how come they don't produce superior or tighter patterns than plastic wad ones ? The ole they damage too many pellets doesn't wash because if that were the only cause it could be rectified by using harder shot .

 

All I'm saying is that a pattern is a pattern is a pattern, show me a "wad stripped" pattern and I'll replicate it without a stripper in sight.

[Hamster]

Really ?

 

So the Wads being dropped short has no effect on shot string etc

 

Correct, none. Shot string is stupendously difficult (near impossible) to accurately measure in a scientifically credible way and it most certainly is nowhere near the top of the list of criteria/things that cause a hit or miss. In other words there are many many more important factors before shot string comes into play.

 

It has been calculated that a typical clay moves between 2-4 inches between the first pellet arriving in its air space and last one leaving, during which time it can (statistically) just as easily move out of the way of a hit than move into a hit. The whole thing is a random moving mass of pellets, the only way to ensure a hit is to have enough pellets and place the centre of those pellets accurately on the moving target. In other words whoever said shoot too far in front and you stand a chance of the target headbutting one of the rearmost pellets is talking out of their rears. It just don't work like that.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Hamster

[Whitebridges]

A very technical subject this choke business.

[Ttfjlc]

This is better than watching Jerry Springer, wish the bloody popcorn would hurry up....

[TONY R]

 

Correct, none. Shot string is stupendously difficult (near impossible) to accurately measure in a scientifically credible way and it most certainly is nowhere near the top of the list of criteria/things that cause a hit or miss. In other words there are many many more important factors before shot string comes into play.

 

It has been calculated that a typical clay moves between 2-4 inches between the first pellet arriving in its air space and last one leaving, during which time it can (statistically) just as easily move out of the way of a hit than move into a hit. The whole thing is a random moving mass of pellets, the only way to ensure a hit is to have enough pellets and place the centre of those pellets accurately on the moving target. In other words whoever said shoot too far in front and you stand a chance of the target headbutting one of the rearmost pellets is talking out of their rears. It just don't work like that.

Well you kind of got that bit close but the rest.

Where did this lot come from? Who said it and where. ?

[6.5x55SE]

Hamster you be stating next Steel 3'shot can only kill Geese at 25 yards and a 20ga is only good for Swatting Spiders from the Bathroom Wall🤔 😂

Edited October 18, 2016 by 6.5x55SE