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INHO you need to go down to 7s not up to 5s. The pigeon is a big looking bird but under all those feathers the body is really tiny, no bigger than a partridge. much smaller than a pheasant.

 

Fire a cartridge loaded with sixes at a sheet of wallpaper at 40yds. See how many holes the size of a pigeon's actual body there are in the pattern and it will be obvious.

 

Ignore all that plumage, people will see a pigeon jink away and see feathers fluttering down and believe they hit the pigeon and it just flew off. You didn't, the pigeon flew through a gap in the pattern but a stray pellet caught some of the feathers..

 

That's your problem. You need a denser pattern to fill the gaps, not bigger shot and an even worse pattern

 

6s for pheasant, 7s for pigeon, 8s for partridge. Try it, what have you got to lose?

Edited by Vince Green
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Some interesting responses, although I think some have missed my point a little.

 

Firstly as I originally said, I am still happy and comfortable with my choice of 32g 6's. Have tried a few manufacturers with that load, and I am currently using RC Romagnola. They are a sensible price compared to most. I have never had a misfire in either o/u, s/s, or semi auto after more than 5000 rounds, and to be honest they seem to hit harder than others I have tried.

 

Also a special thanks to one poster, Walker 500 I think, who intimated that youth and lack of experience could be the problem? If only !!!

 

Well firstly, I don't think I have a problem in the first place and, secondly, despite wishing for a bit more youth, that now at 66 years of age and having been shooting for nearly 50 years, and having represented my County on eleven occasions, I don't think there is an experience issue.

 

From most replies it actually seems that most people advocate a smaller load rather than a bigger one. So this has made me even more comfortable with my current personal choice. Thanks to all for your input. Interesting stuff :good:

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Some interesting responses, although I think some have missed my point a little.

 

Firstly as I originally said, I am still happy and comfortable with my choice of 32g 6's. Have tried a few manufacturers with that load, and I am currently using RC Romagnola. They are a sensible price compared to most. I have never had a misfire in either o/u, s/s, or semi auto after more than 5000 rounds, and to be honest they seem to hit harder than others I have tried.

 

Also a special thanks to one poster, Walker 500 I think, who intimated that youth and lack of experience could be the problem? If only !!!

 

Well firstly, I don't think I have a problem in the first place and, secondly, despite wishing for a bit more youth, that now at 66 years of age and having been shooting for nearly 50 years, and having represented my County on eleven occasions, I don't think there is an experience issue.

 

From most replies it actually seems that most people advocate a smaller load rather than a bigger one. So this has made me even more comfortable with my current personal choice. Thanks to all for your input. Interesting stuff :good:

I'm confused. What exactly was your point. You're happy with your lot. Have noted that the majority view favours a 'lighter' load. Yet you prefer a somewhat 'heavier' option of 32g of 5&1/2s. The fact is though as mentioned, that any discussion regarding load/choke only relates to maximum (but also the minimum) range as anywhere between those two extremes, anything will get the job done.

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I have never understood why people advocate light loads like 28g. To me they are just a by product of the cut price cartridge syndrome. Pay less but get less makes no sense.

 

32g is the 'proper' load IMO. The object of the exercise is to get as much lead as I realistically can into the sky. Not to save 20p on a box of cartridges.

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I have never understood why people advocate light loads like 28g. To me they are just a by product of the cut price cartridge syndrome. Pay less but get less makes no sense.

 

32g is the 'proper' load IMO. The object of the exercise is to get as much lead as I realistically can into the sky. Not to save 20p on a box of cartridges.

Having always used 32g of 6&1/2s, I can see the sense in this. However, this is where I agree with Motty - although we differ a little about range. I think it depends on 32g of what but, again, we're only talking about max and min ranges. What is the point in using a shot size where the energy far exceeds the capability of even the tightest choke (which makes life difficult mid range) when this means the pellet count is down unless you use a far heavier load. Getting as much lead in the air is not about weight, but numbers of pellets. When decoying at conventional ranges 28g of No7 will give you much more lead in the air than 32g of No6. Should this suit your needs then you've had a far more comfortable day with possibly a nice light weight English SbS and you didn't have to buy the cheapest 28g load you could find.

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I have never understood why people advocate light loads like 28g. To me they are just a by product of the cut price cartridge syndrome. Pay less but get less makes no sense.

 

32g is the 'proper' load IMO. The object of the exercise is to get as much lead as I realistically can into the sky. Not to save 20p on a box of cartridges.

 

Vince, you are of course allowed an opinion, but to advocate that 32g is the "PROPER" load is pushing it a bit.

 

By your logic you should be using 36g or heavier!

 

I use 28g because I can quite happily hit and kill everything within range, I keep to one cartridge for all live shooting and have previously used 32gramme shells that absolutely smash the target.

 

 

By the way, the 28g shells I use are the "PROPER" load, because they are PROPER CARTRIDGES!

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Vince, you are of course allowed an opinion, but to advocate that 32g is the "PROPER" load is pushing it a bit.

 

By your logic you should be using 36g or heavier!

 

I use 28g because I can quite happily hit and kill everything within range, I keep to one cartridge for all live shooting and have previously used 32gramme shells that absolutely smash the target.

 

 

By the way, the 28g shells I use are the "PROPER" load, because they are PROPER CARTRIDGES!

 

@TIGHTCHOKE:

 

It's not often that we disagree, but I'm afraid Vince is closer to the mark on this one.

 

32g - or really 1 1/8oz in old money - is indeed the proper "low brass" load for a 12 gauge, along with 36g (1¼oz) for the "high brass" load for the gauge. Go back 100 years in this country and anyone not shooting one or other of those out of a 12 gauge would have been thought very strange indeed. I say "in this country", since almost everywhere else (e.g. Italy, USA), they'll shoot 32g out of a 12ga all day long, even for clays, although The English Disease is unfortunately spreading further and further afield.

 

Your 28g of #6 is - as you're aware - an entirely adequate, do-everything load (and my go-to loading as well), but historically, it's a 16 gauge load and wouldn't have been seen in a 12 (unless it was a lady / child shooting it). I'm very happy to be lumped into that group if necessary, given some of the birds it's brought down. :)

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Neutron, you gave the argument away when you stated "go back 100 years".

 

I agree that is how it used to be, but powder, loading and wad design have come on an awful lot since then.

 

Only the lead and the shape of the pellet is the same.

 

 

 

 

Working on your logic, we should all be driving around in Model T Fords!

Edited by TIGHTCHOKE
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Working on your logic, we should all be driving around in Model T Fords!

 

Well - thank you for your PM - we might as well give my reply an airing here too.

 

I didn't say that we hadn't come up with better / newer ways of doing things.

 

The 32g/36g load is simply the historical normal for a square 12 gauge load and fits nicely when you're using black powder, felt wads and an RTO. You know this of course.

 

That said, almost everyone everywhere, for all of the time we've been shooting shotguns, has called 1 1/8oz the standard load for a 12 gauge.

 

The fact that a higher price of lead and modern fascination - largely in the UK only - with vastly increased muzzle velocities currently obtains doesn't mean that that load isn't "standard" any more - just that it isn't as popular, or probably, as affordable to the handful who shoot 500 cartridges per week.

 

I suspect that in 10-15 years time, we'll be back to more historically normal, slower, heavier loads, having regressed to the mean. Fashions change, but I don't see that the average has moved very far, even as a result of the change from black powder to smokeless.

Edited by neutron619
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32g - or really 1 1/8oz in old money - is indeed the proper "low brass" load for a 12 gauge, along with 36g (1¼oz) for the "high brass" load for the gauge. Go back 100 years in this country and anyone not shooting one or other of those out of a 12 gauge would have been thought very strange

 

 

Eley Impax springs to mind 66 years ago is not to far off 100

 

Your 28g of #6 is - as you're aware - an entirely adequate, do-everything load (and my go-to loading as well), but historically, it's a 16 gauge load

 

 

 

Really how about 15/16oz

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Really how about 15/16oz

 

Well, indeed. What about 2½oz or 3/8oz? Or a 1/100oz piece of packing foam?

 

I'm not saying you can't stuff just about anything you like into a shotgun cartridge, if you can make it fit, but 32g has always been and still is the historic standard load for a 12 gauge shotgun shell.

 

If you don't believe me, go here:

 

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun

 

I did a search for 12 gauge shells, any load, in a 2¾" cheddite case (since that's what most of us use in the UK).

 

The results were as follows:

 

7/8oz - 16 recipes

1oz - 25 recipes

1 1/8oz - 74 recipes

1 1/4oz - 6 recipes

1 3/8oz - 11 recipes

1 1/2oz - 4 recipes

 

So the number of recipes for 1 1/8oz loads exceeds by 12, the number for all other loads. Clearly then, the people who make the powder view a 32g load as significantly more important than the others if they go to the trouble of providing so many recipes for that weight of shot.

 

But ah, you say - those are American loads. My response: quite.

 

We need to broaden our view here. The current fashion for cartridges with light-for-gauge loads of shot, propelled at high (stupid) velocities, to the obvious detriment of performance in many cases, is a peculiarly English phenomenon. I cannot find any evidence for it ever having existed outside of this country, outside of the last 20 years.

 

The usual way of killing birds with a shotgun remains firing big loads of large shot at them. 32g/#5 or 36g/#4 aren't "heavy" loads - they're historically quite ordinary, provided that muzzle velocities are 1250fps and not 1600fps.

 

Shoot either of those loads at 1600fps and of course you're going to notice it.

 

What's happened is that the manufacturers in this country have cottoned on to the fact that people will pay for "speed" in a market where lead is proportionately much more expensive than it has been relatively recently. "Speed" doesn't help, but it's enough for people to accept shooting silly light loads of shot down big tubes and paying more for the privilege. No wonder they're milking it for all it's worth!

 

On the other hand, folk like cookoff, who know a thing or two about reloading, keep popping up here and telling us about 32g+ (or even 36g+) loads with MV's of 1050fps which achieve better performance than anything currently commercially available and trying to persuade us of their merits.

 

No-one much seems to listen to him, of course, but he's more likely right than not. He's also got 150-200 years of shotgun shooting tradition on his side. If Edward VII could shoot 500 pheasants in a day with a 12 gauge and 1¼oz of #6 on top of black powder and a muzzle velocity of 900fps, I don't see why we suddenly believe we need shot two sizes bigger at double the speed to shoot a handful of pigeons here and there.

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Impax was always considered a woman's or a boys cartridge in my day. Even into the 70s and the 80s cartridges were always ounce and an eighth, Grand Prix, Three Crowns, even the imports, fiocci, Winchester etc

 

The tendency towards the lighter loads coincided with a time when a lot of price cutting and bulk buying became prevelent, I guess it was the internet that brought that about.

 

Before then, strange as it might seem, people were not that sensitive to price. Then suddenly it was all about price and cartridge companies started look at ways of cutting corners to get the price down.

Edited by Vince Green
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Guest cookoff013

 

Well, indeed. What about 2½oz or 3/8oz? Or a 1/100oz piece of packing foam?

 

I'm not saying you can't stuff just about anything you like into a shotgun cartridge, if you can make it fit, but 32g has always been and still is the historic standard load for a 12 gauge shotgun shell.

 

If you don't believe me, go here:

 

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun

 

I did a search for 12 gauge shells, any load, in a 2¾" cheddite case (since that's what most of us use in the UK).

 

The results were as follows:

 

7/8oz - 16 recipes

1oz - 25 recipes

1 1/8oz - 74 recipes

1 1/4oz - 6 recipes

1 3/8oz - 11 recipes

1 1/2oz - 4 recipes

 

So the number of recipes for 1 1/8oz loads exceeds by 12, the number for all other loads. Clearly then, the people who make the powder view a 32g load as significantly more important than the others if they go to the trouble of providing so many recipes for that weight of shot.

 

But ah, you say - those are American loads. My response: quite.

 

We need to broaden our view here. The current fashion for cartridges with light-for-gauge loads of shot, propelled at high (stupid) velocities, to the obvious detriment of performance in many cases, is a peculiarly English phenomenon. I cannot find any evidence for it ever having existed outside of this country, outside of the last 20 years.

 

The usual way of killing birds with a shotgun remains firing big loads of large shot at them. 32g/#5 or 36g/#4 aren't "heavy" loads - they're historically quite ordinary, provided that muzzle velocities are 1250fps and not 1600fps.

 

Shoot either of those loads at 1600fps and of course you're going to notice it.

 

What's happened is that the manufacturers in this country have cottoned on to the fact that people will pay for "speed" in a market where lead is proportionately much more expensive than it has been relatively recently. "Speed" doesn't help, but it's enough for people to accept shooting silly light loads of shot down big tubes and paying more for the privilege. No wonder they're milking it for all it's worth!

 

On the other hand, folk like cookoff, who know a thing or two about reloading, keep popping up here and telling us about 32g+ (or even 36g+) loads with MV's of 1050fps which achieve better performance than anything currently commercially available and trying to persuade us of their merits.

 

No-one much seems to listen to him, of course, but he's more likely right than not. He's also got 150-200 years of shotgun shooting tradition on his side. If Edward VII could shoot 500 pheasants in a day with a 12 gauge and 1¼oz of #6 on top of black powder and a muzzle velocity of 900fps, I don't see why we suddenly believe we need shot two sizes bigger at double the speed to shoot a handful of pigeons here and there.

 

i`ve chased speed. its not all its cracked up to be. while some think 1050fps is not fast enough and 1500fps is too fast, is not really going over the taboo of payloads. i do mess around with the light stuff, often with 25g steel at the moment. but thats another story, 30g #5 shotcount.

shotguns are really simple. we move very heavy metal at high speed over a distance. while the manufacturers have cottoned on that speed sells, so does quality. "down the line" (excuse the pun) the shell manufacturers have lost there way. loads get downgraded to econamy or club shells or other. intercomp hv were a great shell, but now is only available in 24g loads. it was a 28g load since its start. the clay manufactures are changing what they consider the best.

 

a premium brand cartridge would be available in 6s-9 for example, soverign shells are available in all sundry, pro one shells were and profibre... now they are second best to the soverign range at a 1500fps speed.

 

so these are clay loafs.

now lets discuss the 12gauge optimal loads. thats 32g loads and 36g loads. these are what has been developed around lead for 100years.

remington still have 32g #8 as a premium clay load, and the low recoil remingtons are the same 1300fps loads just 1oz. there is no 1500fps mentioned. there game loads are 36g loads and upwards.

 

now what does get on target, is lead shot. alot of it. if you shoot bigger loads, more shot gets to target. thats a true statement. although its abit too much 50g +loads.

for my money 1250fps is about as good as it gets, i`d take 1200fps over that but i`m just picky, i know what a slow load can do. but i would guess a big slow load would do it better. this was confirmed when i did my subsonic patterning. they just work.

they pattern well with any choke.

 

even the powder manufacturers have cottoned on to the speed revolution. loading guides by noble and maxam 400m/s seems to be the going rate now of reduced payload loads. i remember when AS was marketed at a 32g powder, not its not even mentioned. infact in the states it has turned up there in factory offerings. and with dedicated test data that shows it is suitable (and very suitable) for 32g loadings. if one can live with the 1200fps limit.

 

my devils advocate is the price switch from extra lead, or extra powder(speed). lead is expensive, its expensive to transport. expensive to store. same as powder. the cartridges are about the same cost between 32g slow and 1oz fast. so for me 32g big shot is better overall. to play a counterpart of this, is the 7/8oz lead loads, same powder but way less lead. from that its cheaper, because the lead saving is substantial. but the powder wont burn right. might need a grain increase or whatnot. so the cost saving is not clear cut.

 

what is not really discussed is the pigeon 32g #6 shells. they are made in an economy way with cheaper components (aka classic lead 32g wads.) and available in one shotsize #6 only. not a coincidence. its the minimum size required for such a small gamebird.

its made and ordered in bulk.

 

now it seems even 21g loads are now classed as magnums by the newer generations. but at 1500fps minumum. tight chokes to get 1/4 patterns...

classic big shot, big loads and low speed works.

 

1500fps 2.5" loads were never ever invented in blackpowder days..... i cant think of anything more removed from tradition.

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i`ve chased speed. its not all its cracked up to be. while some think 1050fps is not fast enough and 1500fps is too fast, is not really going over the taboo of payloads. i do mess around with the light stuff, often with 25g steel at the moment. but thats another story, 30g #5 shotcount.

shotguns are really simple. we move very heavy metal at high speed over a distance. while the manufacturers have cottoned on that speed sells, so does quality. "down the line" (excuse the pun) the shell manufacturers have lost there way. loads get downgraded to econamy or club shells or other. intercomp hv were a great shell, but now is only available in 24g loads. it was a 28g load since its start. the clay manufactures are changing what they consider the best.

 

a premium brand cartridge would be available in 6s-9 for example, soverign shells are available in all sundry, pro one shells were and profibre... now they are second best to the soverign range at a 1500fps speed.

 

so these are clay loafs.

now lets discuss the 12gauge optimal loads. thats 32g loads and 36g loads. these are what has been developed around lead for 100years.

remington still have 32g #8 as a premium clay load, and the low recoil remingtons are the same 1300fps loads just 1oz. there is no 1500fps mentioned. there game loads are 36g loads and upwards.

 

now what does get on target, is lead shot. alot of it. if you shoot bigger loads, more shot gets to target. thats a true statement. although its abit too much 50g +loads.

for my money 1250fps is about as good as it gets, i`d take 1200fps over that but i`m just picky, i know what a slow load can do. but i would guess a big slow load would do it better. this was confirmed when i did my subsonic patterning. they just work.

they pattern well with any choke.

 

even the powder manufacturers have cottoned on to the speed revolution. loading guides by noble and maxam 400m/s seems to be the going rate now of reduced payload loads. i remember when AS was marketed at a 32g powder, not its not even mentioned. infact in the states it has turned up there in factory offerings. and with dedicated test data that shows it is suitable (and very suitable) for 32g loadings. if one can live with the 1200fps limit.

 

my devils advocate is the price switch from extra lead, or extra powder(speed). lead is expensive, its expensive to transport. expensive to store. same as powder. the cartridges are about the same cost between 32g slow and 1oz fast. so for me 32g big shot is better overall. to play a counterpart of this, is the 7/8oz lead loads, same powder but way less lead. from that its cheaper, because the lead saving is substantial. but the powder wont burn right. might need a grain increase or whatnot. so the cost saving is not clear cut.

 

what is not really discussed is the pigeon 32g #6 shells. they are made in an economy way with cheaper components (aka classic lead 32g wads.) and available in one shotsize #6 only. not a coincidence. its the minimum size required for such a small gamebird.

its made and ordered in bulk.

 

now it seems even 21g loads are now classed as magnums by the newer generations. but at 1500fps minumum. tight chokes to get 1/4 patterns...

classic big shot, big loads and low speed works.

 

1500fps 2.5" loads were never ever invented in blackpowder days..... i cant think of anything more removed from tradition.

Simply not true!

 

Where are these 1600 fps loads? Do they exist?

 

I use 1 oz of 7 or 7.5 usually, for pigeons. These will be in the 1200-1300 fps range. Perfect as far as I am concerned.

 

As I have many on too many occasions, if in any doubt about the capability of these kind of shells, watch my pigeon videos and give me some feedback.

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Well, indeed. What about 2½oz or 3/8oz? Or a 1/100oz piece

What's your point!!!!!!

Mine was a traditional 16 gauge load was/is 15/16oz Which is under a 1oz/28 gram .

And was not Eley Impax and Galyons Linton cartridges developed for Driven grouse and Partridge shooting also a traditional game load being 1-1/16oz/30gram

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there is no doubt in my mind that bigger shot kills better for me 32 gram 4.5 in metric 2.9mm for high flighting pigeons speed tested to be about 385 meters at v2 which is 2.5 meters to the centre of the speed screens and i mean high not pigeons coming in to roost wings back and letting on a branch with delivering my cartridges all over the country i try to talk my way into a bit of shooting and thats from lands end to john o groats people have seen me shoot old and young men and the response i get is geordie i would not have lifted my gun to that my answer is do you think after coming all this way i am not going to have a shot and comments on here about people shooting light shot to 70 yards is a total waste of time get yourself a measured 70 yards on a pice of string lay it out on the ground knock a stick in put a empty box on and shoot it then come back with a pellet count i have had some good game shots come to my building i say would you shoot a pigeon at the other end 9 out of 10 say no i get them to walk forward and stop 7 out of 10 stop at about 35 yards so when i say people are saying they are shooting at my building and half again thats 210 feet my building is 50 yards long even me i go anywhere to shoot and 60 to 70 yards is a long way :good:

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I am quite happy using no 6 or 6.5 for most of my pigeon shooting , but this winter I am doing very well with 32 gr of no 5 at highish roosting pigeons. Around 80% of the birds I have shot at to 50 yard range have been killed with most stone dead. These are in lead

( supplied by my farmer ) , but when using steel ( my preffered shells when buying my own ) I use no 4 or 3 shot again with very good results. But Guerini Guy if no 6 works for you then stick with it. Years ago a good friend of mine David Garrard ( Homeloader of the Shooting Times ) used to give me all sorts of left over cartridges after the makers had sent him a box to fire test pattens. I would often go out with a half a dozen different shells of various loads , types and shot sizes and one thing I found was if you pointed them in the right direction they all did the job within a reasonable range.

Edited by anser2
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Where are these 1600 fps loads? Do they exist?

 

This is the sort of thing you shoot at pigeons isn't it?

 

http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/clay/cartridges/sovereign-parcours

 

What's your point!!!!!!

 

Well, exactly. You've just illustrated it for me nicely.

 

In case it's not clear, you can put whatever the hell you like in any size case you like. Saying "15/16oz" or "2½oz" or whatever is just, within reason, quoting a quantity of shot. If that's what you like, then load them up and shoot them.

 

On the other hand, if we're talking historical averages, then for 12 gauge it's 1 1/8oz and 1 1/4oz; for 16 gauge 1oz and 1 1/8oz; for 20 gauge 7/8oz and 1oz; etc. for low and high brass loads respectively.

 

Stuff them full of polystyrene for all I care - it won't change what's been the common ground of good 12 gauge loads for 150 years.

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This is the sort of thing you shoot at pigeons isn't it?

 

http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/clay/cartridges/sovereign-parcours

 

 

 

Well, exactly. You've just illustrated it for me nicely.

 

In case it's not clear, you can put whatever the hell you like in any size case you like. Saying "15/16oz" or "2½oz" or whatever is just, within reason, quoting a quantity of shot. If that's what you like, then load them up and shoot them.

 

On the other hand, if we're talking historical averages, then for 12 gauge it's 1 1/8oz and 1 1/4oz; for 16 gauge 1oz and 1 1/8oz; for 20 gauge 7/8oz and 1oz; etc. for low and high brass loads respectively.

 

Stuff them full of polystyrene for all I care - it won't change what's been the common ground of good 12 gauge loads for 150 years.

😂😂😂😂

 

Tell it to Mr Eley Kynoch as there Traditional 16 gauge game load Eley Grand Prix was/is 15/16oz 12 gauge was/is Eley Grand Prix 1-1/16 oz .

I believe 1951 Eley brought out Eley Impax a 1oz load for Driven Grouse/Partridge.

It's got nothing to do with my preferred load

Oh just remembered ( old brain been shooting for over 50yrs ) traditional 20 gauge

13/16 oz.😊😍

Edited by 6.5x55SE
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Aye, it's all good fun. Nothing is going to change except change. Come forward just 14 years from the 100 mentioned and Burrard was writing that 1&1/16 oz was the standard 2&1/2" load. All we can be certain of is that we're going to get what we deserve so it's best to keep calm and carry on. Give some consideration to what you want to achieve (not to mention the quarry), work out how to do it with the aid of some ballistic info - which the makers are not going to give to you - and a pattern plate and then try it in the field. If it works for you, then stop faffing about and stick with it. If that doesn't appeal and you decide you want to shoot 80 to 90 yard pheasant then some estate will arrange to present the birds to your requirements. But you'll pay through the nose. Then the cartridge makers will come up with a load which they'll term as "Top Secret" and convince you that they work. They won't, of course, but again you'll pay through the nose. As they don't work, along will come the after market choke brigade but you're running out of nostrils to pay for them. Meanwhile if, after you've had a **** day and shot very little, you hear a load of gunfire it'll be Joe Bloggs who kept calm and is having a cracking day on the pigeon.

 

Who was it that wanted some 1300 ft/sec No 7s? You'll achieve this with those having a observed velocity of 1050. At 50 yards, though, the energy will be down to 0.68 ft/lbs and won't quit make the 0.85 at 45 yards. You can bet the makers will advertise them at the speed that the very first pellet 'crossed the line' so if you miss with that one you'll have to wait for a couple of milli seconds for the bulk to arrive and this will be a tad slower so it might just pay to cater for this and any other possible abnormality and call your requirement 1 ft/lb. Nicely on the nose at 40 yards. :whistling::innocent:

Edited by wymberley
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Tell it to Mr Eley Kynoch as there Traditional 16 gauge game load Eley Grand Prix was/is 15/16oz 12 gauge was/is Eley Grand Prix 1-1/16 oz .

I believe 1951 Eley brought out Eley Impax a 1oz load for Driven Grouse/Partridge.

It's got nothing to do with my preferred load

Oh just remembered ( old brain been shooting for over 50yrs ) traditional 20 gauge

13/16 oz.

 

OK - last time, then I'm giving up.

 

Eley Grand Prix is a brand. One brand amongst many. Funnily enough there were other 12 gauge cartridges available in 1951, from other manufacturers and - shock! horror! - with other loadings than 1 1/8oz and 1 1/4oz.

 

Goodness - someone might even have loaded 1½oz and called it a "magnum", though I suspect that's pushing the limits of a 2½" case's capacity somewhat. Perhaps another clever chap by the name of Pietro Fiocchi might have put only 7/8oz shot in the same size cartridge and found that the muzzle velocity went up by about 200fps, which made a nice, if somewhat punchy clay pigeon cartridge. Perhaps he made lots of them, stuck a label like "HP12" on it and sold them to other people!?

 

"Unthinkable!" I hear you exclaim.

 

No. I'm afraid what I'm getting at is (I'll say it again) the historical average.

 

This doesn't mean, "what did Eley load?", or "what did Fiocchi load?", or "what did Kynoch load?" (I assume you're aware that they started out as two competing companies, which were then unified under Nobel Industries and later ICI and that "Eley-Kynoch" was itself a brand name?) Rather, it means, "what is the general historical average loading of every cartridge made for 12 gauge guns, everywhere, ever?"

 

The answer to that question, is given above.

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OK - last time, then I'm giving up.

 

Eley Grand Prix is a brand. One brand amongst many. Funnily enough there were other 12 gauge cartridges available in 1951, from other manufacturers and - shock! horror! - with other loadings than 1 1/8oz and 1 1/4oz.

 

Goodness - someone might even have loaded 1½oz and called it a "magnum", though I suspect that's pushing the limits of a 2½" case's capacity somewhat. Perhaps another clever chap by the name of Pietro Fiocchi might have put only 7/8oz shot in the same size cartridge and found that the muzzle velocity went up by about 200fps, which made a nice, if somewhat punchy clay pigeon cartridge. Perhaps he made lots of them, stuck a label like "HP12" on it and sold them to other people!?

 

"Unthinkable!" I hear you exclaim.

 

No. I'm afraid what I'm getting at is (I'll say it again) the historical average.

 

This doesn't mean, "what did Eley load?", or "what did Fiocchi load?", or "what did Kynoch load?" (I assume you're aware that they started out as two competing companies, which were then unified under Nobel Industries and later ICI and that "Eley-Kynoch" was itself a brand name?) Rather, it means, "what is the general historical average loading of every cartridge made for 12 gauge guns, everywhere, ever?"

 

The answer to that question, is given above.

Keep reading and believing what ever you want.

😴😴😴😴

Edited by 6.5x55SE
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