Mungler
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Posts posted by Mungler
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48 minutes ago, welsh1 said:
It is not an arrestable offence not to give your details when asked, but a police officer could arrest you to obtain your details if he needed to,he would need good reason to arrest and detain you and a custody Sgt would rip him a new one if the arrest was just because you didn't give your name.
If you are being questioned on suspicion of being anti social for example (being the lowest most subjective bar for anything) then if you refuse, you’ll get nicked until they work out who you are.In the real world, if the police want your details, they’ll get them. Indeed, there’s plenty of times they’ll not like the look of someone, want their details knowing that chances are there’ll be an outstanding warrant.
Again, my mum is unlikely to be pursued for her details or object to giving them.
Attract the attention of the police for whatever reason, refuse to give your details and you’ll end up on a finger print machine one way or another.
52 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:Nonsense, only if your suspected of an offence which comes back to having intelligence led action by the police. You seem to be calling for a police state.
Nope. You seen to be calling for more knife crime. See how that works?In Europe, beloved by some, there are mandatory ID cards. Is Europe a police state?
Compulsory in 15 European Countries
Try to buy ciggies out of a vending machine in Italy, and you’ll need your states ID card. Police state right there 😆
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2 minutes ago, Mice! said:
Maybe we should get footballers going down on one knee against knife crime 🙄🙄
Indeed, if only just virtue signalling by the privileged or holding and broadcasting a higher status opinion could fight knife crime…Incidentally, if anyone wants to know what to do about knife crime ask a 20+ year serving police officer.
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Like Holland it’s the young who are heading to the ‘far right’.
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1 hour ago, Mice! said:
What more intelligence do you need, the numbers show that black youths are carrying knives, especially at events like NH, and the numbers show its these same black youths that are stabbing each other, its been mentioned throughout the thread just how many stabbings there have been.
But we can't stop the event, despite the massive disruption, police injuries, stabbings and robberies every year as that would upset people, you don't want the police to target the very group responsible and most at risk of knife crime, because that would upset them??
We are no where near a police state, I'd love to see the likes of the BBC do a poll in the areas most affected with stabbings and knife crime, would you except random stop and search, hoping it reduced the cases, or be happy for the police to just ignore it, because that seems to be the options at the moment.
As for people, normally teenagers and young adults wandering the streets and parks with hoods up, clearly trying to hide their faces, I've no issues with that, it's just what they do, but when your going to an event, into the shops you should expect to have to put the hood down.
Well put.And again, we either carry on as we are, or…. what?
What we need is another BS headline grabbing knife crime initiative - like banning knife sales to under 21 in Robert Dyas, knife bins and maybe someone like Gary Lineker saying ‘can’t we all just get along?’.
Perhaps a strong poem or two or perhaps some performative art will solve it?
1 minute ago, Mice! said:It's not even just minorities, it's often just non white in General, if it was white males, aged 16-24 that were the main causes of knife crime it would be getting handled in a totally different way.
Oh you know it.
This whole topic is two tier policing in full effect.
47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:Mmmm... you dont think were ALREADY on the police state path, recent events have shown us that the new government is more than prepared to attack certain demographics, and hand out stiff sentences for very insignificant 'thought crimes'
In fact, theyve gone so far as to early release hardened criminals, so there is room for those that post inflammatory content on social media.And it IS about offending people, certain demographics are more likely to commit certain crimes, thats an inescapable fact, yet you believe if there were more searches conducted on this demographic this could lead to unrest ? So does this not mean that this section of society is more prone to violence ?
Obviously we cant tar everyone of a certain race, religion or nationality with the same brush, but we can take targeted precautions for everyones security, or we wouldnt be taking security seriously.
If 10 caravans worth of gypsies rolled up 100 yards away from your house, you would probably take some kind of precautions to protect your property would you not ? Would you be bothered if said travelling 'folk' got offended by that ?
Ill go back to the airport security analogy, they dont differentiate between Joe public and the demographic most likely to hijack/blow up a plane, or do they ?
They simply cant be SEEN to profile a passenger, and its most likely the police already do this with carnival attendees, the number of arrests for weapons confirms this.
When you have 10,000 testosterone and drug fuelled mini gangstas mingling with the largely peaceful crowd, its probably a pointless exercise searching a middle aged couple, or a family with kids, no matter what colour they are.
Ill say it again, are we more scared of offending minorities, than the potential and actual crimes minorities commit ?
The grooming gang scandal, and many other incidents, proved that largely, yes we are.Another good post.
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33 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:
So I take it your an advocate of ai monitoring of everyone, Id cards ect?
It’s an arrestable offence not to give your name / details to a police officer when asked. The whole of the Europe (loved by so many) has mandatory ID cards.
The world has moved on. ID cards are yesterday’s tech anyway and the modern criminal in the UK spins round fraud (voter, benefit, financial) and general deception. Needs now must.
Back to stop and search; where we are now is Khan has only allowed stop and search based on specific police intelligence. This does not include stopping someone because they look suspect. My view, target the key demographic and particularly anyone looking suspicious or seeking to conceal their identity. More of what we have won’t work for the future, when it’s not working now - that much should be obvious.
7th or 8th time of asking - what’s the alternative?
The stats show that old fashioned stop and search (without any red tape or the need to balance searches but making sure the correct quota of white old ladies also got searched) worked but of course the hand wringers didn’t like the notion of using the stats (aka evidence) to target a particular group.
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25 minutes ago, Vince Green said:
At one time the young were radicalised towards left thinking politics. I remember being inundated at school with ban the bomb and it's later form CND
At college it was Socialist Worker and the Workers Revolutionary Party. You couldn't sit down in the Refectory or the Bar without someone sidling up to you trying to start a conversation . Greenpeace was at it as well
Two impressions now looking back. The first was it was organised and coordinated. Secondly, what they told us was utterly untrue.
Now through the Internet, Russian and Chinese trolls are trying to stir up civil unrest on Patriot sites in America. Feeding people's grievances. I have no doubt the same cyber trolls are doing the same in Britain and Europe with the disaffected youth. It's a fertile audience.
I have similar observations and experiences.Back end of the 70’s and into the 80’s the country was in the toilet. Nothing worked and unemployment was off the chart - songs were written about it. Radicalism had fertile soil with such a bleak outlook.
Nowadays, unemployment is actually a personal choice. Moreover, if you can make it out of school being able to read, write and operate a laptop you can do pretty much whatever it is you set your mind to.
Most grievances spin round housing and that’s the wound that Labour will focus on. No one looks any deeper as to why there’s a housing shortage - the young did in Holland and they voted ‘right’.
I also see that a lot of the discontent is now looking at why we still can’t just even talk about immigration and as with Brexit, there’s a growing sense of the elites not listening and mugging everyone off with labels of racist and far right to suppress a long overdue discussion. Out of everyone I know (and I know a lot of people) I’d say that I can’t think of anyone who wouldn’t share the view that mass uncontrolled immigration has to stop and is now detrimental. So, why do we get more of the same? It won’t end well.
Add in the economic reporting breaking through that undermines the ‘we need cheap Labour’ mantra and which highlights the long term cost of feeding, housing, educating, supporting a million a year… and the off spring of that million a year.
Demographics is destiny. We’ve seen how London votes, and how easily the dreamy loons of the Green Party got taken over in various constituencies. As Douglas Murray once noted, economic migrants immediately knit their own safety blanket in the form of ultra large families - and why not, they come from areas where large families otherwise starve and are not housed and supported by the state for free, so who wouldn’t?
The pendulum is swinging back - the obvious one is there is now far less talk of asylum seekers which is how we were all originally sold the lie.
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12 minutes ago, Vince Green said:
I think you have the answer right there. Labour killed the Rwanda scheme "because they could" demonstrating mindless negativity over practical need.
But let's not forget the part the Home Office and the Judicary also played in scuppering it at every stage
One of the things we have got to do is stop bottomless legal aid because it is being misused to create delaying tactics for their own sake.
It’s the liberal left in academia, the civil service and judiciary that make change impossible.The naive Gary Lineker-esque ‘can’t we all just get along’ and higher status opinion signalling that is at the heart of this. Brexit and immigration are low status opinions and just don’t feature as important or worthy in Westminster. Problem is, the rest of the country who don’t live in the nice areas where the effects of uncontrolled immigration are felt. Indeed none of their kids would have fallen under the spell of a gang in Rotherham, Telford etc or go to a school where English is a third or forth language.
Who was the delightful Labour mp who declared that the victims of the rape gangs should stay silent for the sake of multiculturalism? How is that person still in public life?
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There’s no left or right anymore.
Labour want to promote a class war between the haves and the have nots but the idea that there’s a hill with all the conservatives and capitalists on the top and suppressed workers at the bottom under their boots is 100 years behind the times.
We are now seeing traditional Labour supporters vote in droves for the right / Reform. And the conservatives certainly aren’t conservatives anymore.
The lines are forming around sensible and pragmatic vs dreamy unworkable nonsense.
I maintain that economics needs to be taught in schools alongside maths and English from day 1.
18 minutes ago, Vince Green said:A lot of these people's main grievance is believing that nobody is listening to them.
And they’d be right.
Im not one for conspiracy theories but the uncontrolled mass immigration under the conservatives (contrary to manifesto promises) baffles me. And even when we had a head start watching the detrimental effects in Europe and just what can be seen with our own eyes in all the major cities in the UK and yet it *will* only get worse over the next 5 years. Labour have no plan and killed the only available plan.
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Oh and in more breaking news someone owes a charity of my choice £20. Male, 16-30, non white. Explain to me again why this age group and demographic ought not be targeted and how there should be equivalent searches of people like my mum not to offend a particular group?
Again, we should pay no attention to the hand wringing nonsense of ‘complex’ and ‘cultural issues’. Absolute wet buffoonery. Leave the wets in charge and it all falls apart soon enough.
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1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:
Absolutely, a small inconvenience for everyones safety.
A good deterrent.
The only people offended are either playing the "race card" or are those damned apologists who are being offended on behalf of the people they are apologising about.
Agreed.And there’s either a will and a determination to do something about knife crime (and an acceptance that there’s no magical solution which doesn’t involve breaking a few eggs to make that omelette) or we keep going as we are…
Still not had a viable alternative on here - 6th time of asking 😆
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26 minutes ago, B686 said:
If you’re in an area with high knife crime or at an event why not be searched. What is it 30/40 seconds out of your life.
Were already on the slippery slope to dictatorship with that Prxxk Starmer.
Don’t let common sense get in the way of an opportunity to be offended.
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8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:
Serious question. How would you or anyone else on this forum feel if all white males were band from keeping firearms in private ownership in future?
After all, all mass shootings over the last few decades with legally held firearms has been committed by white males!
Not a rational comparator.If people were dropping like flies every week, and the prisons were disproportionately full of whites aged 16-30 and the demographic perpetrators were white 16-30 then there would be a rational argument for no white owning guns between the gates of 16- 30 years of age. That’s how stats work. If the country agreed too, well that’s how democracy works for better or for worse.
And this is where we also have another irrational departure from reality - and that is searching people like my mum to show balance when actively searching for 16-30 black males. Does that make it better or fairer, if utterly pointless. That is the mindlessness of it all right there - search everyone to make it fair but all the while know full well it’s only non white males 16-30 who are carrying. Absolute waste of police resources too.
Ah the hand wringers. Trevor Phillips had it right.
The knife crime problem won’t get any better until a few truths are openly accepted and a few bitter pills swallowed.
I think we should leave the decision making to non white mothers over 40 - they’re the ones disproportionately affected. But what we have is ‘well meaning’ white hand wringers telling everyone how offended they should be.
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2 hours ago, oowee said:
But it can't be just targeted at one group as this will (as @12gauge82 suggests) simply alienate and cause more problems.
If it stops knife crime then why not?
Or rather do we let knife crime continue to disproportionately affect a particular at risk demographic for fear of upsetting that demographic?
Doesn’t bother me - there’s a solution available and the reason it’s not pursued is for fear of alienating the statistically most probably / at risk demographic albeit the truth of targeting that demographic is in the statistical evidence as upsetting as they may find that truth.
Mark my words, there will be no getting on top of knife crime without targeted stop and search as offensive as that may be. Indeed, until that demographic and the liberal hand wringers get to grips with that Hobson’s choice the stabbings will continue.
As for alternatives - well I’m not seeing any and there’s no suggestions here, just word soup about complex and cultural issues.
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4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:
I wish I’d asked this question earlier, would have saved me wasting so much time. You clearly haven’t got a scooby what you’re talking about here and that reply is ultimate proof.
Rwanda is a great example of another ill thought out “strategy”.
There’s no “another” solution to discuss since you haven’t put forward a credible initial one.
Constant reference to lefty hand wringers is getting really monotonous.
The Nottinghill demographic survey breaks down male / female / age range and white British and non white British.
Again, the stats are clear and there’s zero point to stopping and searching my mum.
From YouGov
Knife crime affects young ethnic minority Britons in particular, with the number knowing a victim rising to over one in four (28%) of those aged 18-24. This is double the number of white Britons of the same age (15%).
No one tried Rwanda to see if would work, and it was scrapped with no Plan B. -
3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:
What your failing to grasp is the one thing that will causes issues with humans quicker than anything, is a sense of injustice and if people are being stop searched for nothing more than being a young black man, apart from it being completely unjust, it will store future problems up. While the hard of thinking scratch their heads and simply pour more blame on a group of people for criminal acts.
As I said earlier, it's a highly complex issue and one of the reasons I'm against mass uncontrolled migration, humans are tribal and any influx of groups of people who don't integrate will lead to future problems.
It's also laughable. I was massively in favour of Brexit and voted Reform at the last election.
Trevor Phillips, again.Either target the problem and stop a few people who will feel the injustice of being stopped and searched or don’t and we get more of the same.
For the 5th time of asking - what’s the better alternative?
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3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:
Your airport analogy is a great example of why blanket stop and search wouldn't achieve it's objective. Do you read the news, notice criminals have no problem getting illegal firearms into the UK? Block one route and another one will open up. I've already explained how that would apply to the carnival, but the same as you have been with my other posts, your selective in cherry picking bits of posts that suit your narrative. To be honest it surprises me, your usually logical with your posts on here, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet and are hell bent at pushing your view, despite the evidence stacking up to counter them.
You’ve missed the point. The primary purpose of airport security is there to guard airports and air a travel, particularly so after 9-11. Post 9-11 it has been effective. It is not there to stop guns entering the country albeit it does for that route.Stop and search is there to stop the most prolific and at risk demographic (non white males 16-30) from carrying knives on the streets and stabbing other non white males in the 16-30 demographic because it is that demographic which is the most prevalent/ at risk.
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12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:
I don’t know where to start but perhaps you could clarify to what extent of black fits your target demographic?
What are the Police Officers not doing as a result of your proposed initiative or, if it’s incremental, who’s funding it?
I’m not in disagreement with what TP stated but I don’t see how your “plan” flies and I presume you’re decent enough to acknowledge the points I’ve raised are in no way attributable to “liberal hand wringing”?
Black is non white the last time I checked.How on earth did we afford stop and search before it became so offensive (and we stopped it and the stabbing rates went through the roof)?
It’s not going to be 24/7 - once everyone knows there’s a good chance of being stopped and searched, knife carrying will drop and an equilibrium will be established.
The same argument was for Rwanda - send the first 100 boats over, the next 100 won’t bother because they won’t want to risk a one way ticket to Rwanda. But the lefty hand wringers won that won and where are we now? Oh yes, no change and situation still untenable.
Again, for the 4th time - another solution please?
1 minute ago, Rewulf said:Just so they could continue to have/use the knives they carry ?
Think about what you're saying, rather than have random or targeted searches , or be forced to go through a metal detector, they would rather not go to the carnival, or riot ? Sounds like the people you don't really want there anyway!
Imagine the conversation at the funerals, 'We need to stop this senseless murder of young people'...... 'Right so we need extra security measures?'...... 'NO stop being racist !'
It's funny that no one complains about airport security checks, yet statistically you're more likely to be killed at the carnival than flying, any day of the week.
Good post.Given heightened airport security and the reasonable prospect of detection, how many people try to beat airport security with guns and bombs? The system and the threat of detection takes over and does the heavy lifting with strong deterrent.
Do I mind being stopped and searched at an airport? Not at all and I ping the scanner every time I go through it because the scanner thinks there’s 2 people trying to sneak through. Do I consider the machine and staff fattist? No, couldn’t give a monkeys. Offence cannot be given, it can only be taken.
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21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:
That's absolute selective out of context nonsense. You've ignored my earlier explanations. I'm all for intelligence led, targeted search.
The problem, as in your solution is the non intelligence led stop and search. Put yourself in the shoes of an average carnival goer your 16-30yo, law abiding and male. The police stop and search you simply because your a young black male, I don't know about you but that would **** me off and it must make them feel they don't belong to society. In the long run, it's part of the cause of these problems.
That's a different thing entirely and is condition of entry searching, which I'd be all for, but it'd be almost impossible to implement in a street carnival the size of the Notting Hill one. With participants likely to set up unofficiated partying outside the perimeter.
Intelligence lead targeted stop and search is what we have now and was mandated by Khan. How’s that working out, precisely?
’Lads, you know the score. Won’t be a jiffy. We’re doing this to protect you - you are the most at risk group. You’ll be on your way in 2 minutes. Be part of the solution or the problem - your choice really - doesn’t affect me’
Simple. But there has to be an acceptance of who is most at risk to offend and be stabbed and we have to hit rock bottom else the lefty hand wringers will want to tell everyone how offended they should be.
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15 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:
It must be nice having everything so crystal clear in your head. Unfortunately the world doesn't work like that. You'd probably end up with a riot if you randomly without any evidence decided to search the majority of the group you've mentioned without any grounds.
The criminal element would simply adapt there tactics by hiding weapons in pre made stash points so as not to be caught with them, but still maintaining easy access.
Prolonged stop and search with no grounds before the event would probably unleash an even worse backlash, with an even more angry demographic angry at the establishment in the long term, with even more stabbings to look forward to in future.
That is absolute defeatist liberal hand wringing nonsense right there.So you’re against targeted stop and search because it’s going to upset a narrow minority who are statistically the most at risk of being stabbed / stabbing.
I’ll bet you £20 to charity right now that everyone hauled in for the carnival knife murders fits into the target demographic mentioned above - male, non white and 16-30. And what a flukey coincidence that would be - or would it be where the factual data and stats take us?
Again, I look forward to your alternative effective strategy and where no one gets upset or offended 😆
Ah, to ignore the truth and the stats to not cause offence or upset. Madness.
And boy o boy was Trevor Phillips right.
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25 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:
Tragic and totally unnecessary loss of lives.
Serious question, how does targeted stop and search work, at scale, during an event like the Notting Hill Carnival? Or are you suggesting it would have prevented the perps being there in the first place? If so, how confident of that are you, really?
Rough breakdown of numbers, age, sex and ethnicity.Magic window is 16-30, male and non white.
The numbers are do-able. Not everyone would have to get searched; there will be a tipping point of effectiveness and in all likelihood requiring less than 51% of the target demographic being searched.
Deploy police and heavily focus on the target demographic - once word gets out that there’s a better than average change of getting stopped and searched then those that follow won’t bother to attend / bring a knife.
Failing that, if there was prolonged targeted stop and search in place prior to the event taking place then there’s also an increased chance of those concerned being either picked up or prior dissuaded from carrying.
Let’s give it a go eh? Got to be better than doing nothing or the yoof club route.
Ah but you won’t get it past the liberal hand wringers (that’s Trevor Phillips OBE words, not mine 😉)
And how confident are you it wouldn’t work?
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Hot off the press.
The names of those arrested and now on remand indicate that targeted stop and search might have prevented this.
There we go.
No doubt there are a myriad of complex and cultural issues in play here vis. their attackers.
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“Last week’s knife attack, in which a Syrian asylum seeker and suspected Islamist is accused of killing three people, has fuelled fierce criticism of how successive governments have handled migration”
Ah, criticise handling of migration or voice any dissent and you’re not just right but far right.
Does anyone pay any attention to the labelling of far right any more? I don’t.
I do love a bit of Frisby:
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2 hours ago, Wymondley said:
Nothing like a bit of Thatcher bashing, often done by people too young to have lived through her tenure as prime minister.
The only prime minister we've had that would've had the backbone to sort out the mess that this country is in now.
+1
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15 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:
As many see the situation as it occurs in simple terms. I have used simple shorthand to avoid typing.
ethnic brit assaults ethnic brit..................criminal offence with little or no cover.
non ethnic brit assaults non ethnic brit..................Raja's AI trope comes into play with little or no cover.
non ethnic brit assaults ethnic brit..................Raja's AI trope comes into play with virtually no cover.
ethnic brit assaults non ethnic brit.................. Instant Racist attack, Raja's AI trope is forgotten and massive cover.
Can the current protagonists explain why this appears to be the case.
It’s all shrouded in higher status opinions and signalling of higher status opinions.Brexit is another classic battlefield for the projection of a higher status opinion.
Notting hill carnival
in Off Topic
Posted
Fair do’s. I suggest it’s dancing on the head of a pin though.
Just out of interest why were you being asked for your name? I’m guessing it’s bailiff work but can’t understand why you would be asked your name as bailiffs are required to identity themselves?