wj939

I'd take an older beretta over a new one any day of the week, your comparing an entry level gun against a top spec competition gun, to get more gun than a 682 you have to, in the beretta range, go to the hand finished DT/SO shop. 1850 is pulling your pants down a bit, they aren't that expensive if you look around, the 692's appearance lead to dealers getting an influx. Ps. You can always get the GMK service from beretta in London that basically replaces all worn parts for a fixed cost of about £175, mine came back like new. Would of added £300 to the value if I was selling it.

For Sale: Out of a recent litter I have 2 Black Cocker Dog puppies for sale, currently 6 weeks old, looking for the best of homes over the next few weeks. Chipped and legally docked, these cockers are from exceptional working stock and KC registered. The Bitch: These pups are from my Black and Tan bitch, her mother is from Danalimatt lines which include Timsgarry and Ladecourt lines, notable champions in her pedigree include Argyll Warrior, Sandford Black Mamba, Timsgarry Barlow. On her Sire's side, she is from Mallowdale Zander lines including champions such as: Sandford Black Mamba, Dardnell Dealer, Parbeck Jefferson, Maesydderwen Kestrel and plenty of others. The mother is a compact but stylish bitch, with an exceptional nose for a cocker, and plenty of drive and impressively quick on the retrieve. She is an "easy" dog to handle and a pleasure to shoot over. She's my all round bitch, as home in the beating line as the pigeon hide and just loves to be handled on blinds. A very easy going nature and wonderful shooting companion. The Sire: The Sire is out of Will Cluee's FTCH Orgest Yfwr (top sire at this years champs.) and is compact but strong with a pleasing style and a "proper" cocker action about him. Billy has a very good temperament and a strong confident mentality, something cockers can lack. He loves to retrieve and is very steady when sat shooting. Lots of Maesydderwyn in his breeding and Wernffwrd. The mating should provide puppies with lots of style and flair but with a good nature to perform as all round shooting dogs, both dogs work regularly my bitch having picked up from peg or beat on 27 days this season plus dozens more duck flights and dogging in etc. I am certain they will have the engines to go all day! Pups are ready to go in two weeks time from North Kent and are priced at £650. PM for more details and for contact number.

In this case I'd say that's no bad thing. It's not my own personal style for training, but it would be no bad thing for Ryan to re-establish he's the pack leader. the lab is making a few too many decisions about who's in charge and it could get worse. He needs to practise loading the dogs into the car, and be ready to correct the behaviour. It's a bit like postman aggression, you need to be correcting at the right time not after it kicks off- but with the best will in the world, doing it when your leaving to go shooting won't be frequent enough. Repeat repeat repeat until he gets in ok.

Does he chastise the dog for its behaviour? Sounds like a cage is your best bet for the time being

Is it just the one car he's doing this in? Sound territorial in some ways, a bad experience in others. I'd also be looking at the process of it initially getting in the vehicle, was the pointer already there, was it brought in after and seen as a challenge? Castration isn't going to do anyone but the vet a favour..... I'd try further testing to further analyse the root problem by watching him approaching other 'strange vehicles'

Does your sat nav remember Kent?

You get what you pay for in most things in life- reason some people use beretta and some use a baikal. Both kill clays and game. Suppose we've all been paying over the odds there too? I don't totally disagree with you, yes we pay over the odds for things, but there are clear differences in cheap and expensive cartridges, maybe they don't justify double the price, but that is a case of what they say about A holes and opinions.......

Other thing to remember here is a lot of folk that shoot what ever was the cheapest on the day in the shop, in my experience at least, tend to not shoot many thousand a year. The only way to make 170 a thou economical is to use cheap and do some serious runs that require a big network of retail locations to sell 1000 at a time to each punter. Not all, but most people I know that shoot a lot, over 5k rounds a year tend to want to stick to one brand for consistency and are willing to pay a bit more for their flavour of choice as a result. Even if my second favourite shell was 40 a thousand cheaper- it would take 10000 shells to make 400 quid- the price of a peg on a 100-150 bird day. Or roughly a decent years pigeon shooting- it's not that much in the grand scheme of things considering the difference. Give them a try before you say there's no difference between a cheap and expensive cartridge.

George, don't get lured into making a **** round to meet a price point you can't compete with. Stick to what these are good at: You already have a range of products: As far as I have tested those hi-speeds are better than any round I've bought upto and over £300 per thou. Stick them in a glossier cardboard box, with a black case and silver head and charge £300 per thou in a fibre wad. You now have a 'top of the range cart' for game shooters. Take the hi-speed load a fibre wad keep the case standard and you have a premium mid range fibre load at 240 per thou Take your ultimate game chuck a fibre wad in and knock them out at 220- a mid range cart for pigeon and game. - 2 different boxes same cart. Then, use the basis of the Cheaper 32gram produce a 30gram fibre and call it something non specific like F30 and there's your £200 per thou game/pigeon load. Using cheap components and compromising on quality defeats the object in my mind of "proper cartridges" It's more about the packaging than what's underneath, if you can recreate the loads you already have in fibre wads for a tenner more a thousand, go get yourself a meeting with the graphics team at the box manufacturers and come up with a couple of new names. I don't work for George or have any other dealings with him other than buying his carts, but I have no hesitation in saying I very much doubt you'll find a better cartridge for high bird shooting. At 209 per thousand you can't go wrong

With any selective breeding these things take time, there is a marked contrast between the typical ESS of today compared to the 50's. As their is with cockers and Labradors. I guess ultimately it's what the market dictates.

Quite a movement now to old fashioned springers, can't think of the name but an Irish chap has been developing a line for some years and has excluded just about anything with any Rytex in it. I believe the very oldest of what became known as the springer were exclusively liver and white, not sure when the black and white became apparent.

I prefer smaller dogs in many ways. As do a lot of friends that shoot whom keep the dog in doors year round, mine will pick just about anything I ask, ok I don't expect them to swim against the river and pick a Canada in -1 temperatures, but it's not the size of the dog to an extent its its desire that counts. Most fit dogs have the engine to go all day. There is a trend moving back to bigger more 'original' stock, but these trends Come and go, 30 years ago no one picked up with cockers, now look at any shoot.... Chances are they were just small springers

Lots of shooting is between the ears, if it's going to make you think less, use 28grams. Personally in my 20's I don't have a problem with 28grams and particularly like the fiocchi 's. 25grams are pretty good too, although for higher stuff I'll drop to 28gram 5's.

Use mine for a bit of everything, fantastic gun, you'd need to spend a lot more to get something better. Plus for 180 quid you can send it to gmk and they'll service and replace any worn parts at a flat rate, comes back like new- you just wouldn't know it's been used.

get her a piriton? Or better yet, try a different wife?

No reason for a dog to ever run in, in my opinion. I'll wager I'd never pick an extra bird by one of mine running in rather than waiting for my command. If it goes down in a fast flow I can shout get out as quick as I shot it. If it runs in towards somewhere it shouldn't I'm not stopping them either..... Nice video by the way!

No more than half for steel unless thr choke states it's for steel is the general advice. Because steel is harder than lead, it doesn't deform as much in the barrel and therefore doesn't require so much constriction to pattern effectively. Too much choke blows the pattern. And can be dangerous. Most figures state you should use 2 sizes larger for steel than its lead equivalent, I.e lead sixes use steel fours.

Look at it another way then, and for what it's worth, I am genuinely intrigued to see who thinks what here, so imagine the scenario: You have 5 pigeons on perches a measured 20,30,40,50 and 60 yards away, you have one shot at each using your ounce clay loads, can you confidently state you'll kill out right all five consistently? My guess is the first two yes, maybe the 3rd on your day but the 4th and 5th, more often than not would be winged? Maybe hard enough to drop and be dispatched, maybe not.

Spot on. I am excited to go out tomorrow with my 32g 8's (gamebores new pigeon specials) and shoot something. I now know it's ok and hope to knock a few true 60 yarders down(good at range guessing me). After all, only vermin and I can spend the extra couple of quid saved on beers afterwards. Of course, the other way we could prove the physics argument is to hold a shotguns at dawn duel- you lot can pick an ounce of 71/2's or 8's in English or Italian or German for all it matters. I'll start with my 36gram 4's that I use for exceptional pheasant and work down to my standard load (after all, using the right tool for the job means changing to suit the conditions) We'll start 100 yards apart and fire a shot at each other moving steadily closer- I wonder who says ouch first?

The point is not it can't be done, but why when you will wound more birds than necessary? Based on all the above my guess is: A. You probably over estimate your ranges B.You hit and wound far more than you realise C. Spend more time on pigeonwatch talking about all the pigeons and game you've shot than actually shooting. No one thinks oh if I had 4's not 5.5's I'd hit that, but plenty think I've hit that, it's not down. We've all killed things a lot further away than our loads/gear would normally be thought capable of, but in trying I bet we've clipped a hell of a lot more. All the best and good shooting to all.

Yes, I've experimented a lot over the course of my shooting experience to evaluate what was effective. I am lucky enough to shoot in many different places and frequently at that, I'm not going into a who shoots most or best debate, but I am fortunate enough to shoot three times a week year round if not more on average. As such feel I am fairly qualified in my opinions. I can honestly say I and many of those I have shot with will wing more birds with smaller shot, perhaps it's down in part to ranges, it's common people over estimate the distance of their shots, I know people who will claim to have killed birds at 45 yards with 8's, only to see their 45 yards, when directly above their head is more like 30. But there is no fact behind the argument small clay shot 7.5s 8's and 9's will be as effective at offering clean kills as a larger pellet. It doesn't have the energy, and that is just physics. We can evaluate the multiple strikes theory and I would suggest plucking your next 100 birds including decoyed pigeon, flighted birds, driven game etc. and average the number of pellets in each and I doubt your average would be more than 5. Fact remains, using a sub optimal shot size increases your chance of wounding birds, and encouraging the use of what is widely accepted as a sub optimum load is irresponsible. If you can offer any substantial evidence to support I am completely open to being pleasantly enlightened. Shooting is always going to result in wounded game, its our responsibility to ensure we use the best tools available to ensure clean kills.

Such a closed mind

I stand by my point. Over the range of vermin and game species in the UK, over the average distances they'd be shot by the average man, a 7.5 is not going to be as effective at giving clean kills as a larger pellet, fact. If we all start throwing out our game carts and using clay carts there will be more cripples than necessary and that is not good for anyone. You can take examples at each end of the scale to suit your argument but the vast majority of shooters tend to be in the majority for a reason. Horses for courses, exactly. Clays for clays and I'll stick to using game carts for game and I dont need YouTube to tell me what works better.

Many folk would use a 22. On reds or fallow but sense was seen and we put a minimum calibre law in place for the benefit of everyone. Yes they can be killed by the right shot in the right place but that's not the way it works for everyone. Same with using clay carts on game. Sure, might work a bit, but why bother using a less effective tool to save either a few pence or because you refuse to believe it's best practise to use a larger shot size? Point being the OP asked for recommendation, by supporting the 7.5 post, whether intentionally or not on a public forum your suggesting using them. It's horses for courses and I think the vast majority of people would say it's not the best choice.... All the best.

Then why don't we use 8's and 9's over decoys? Each to their own but there is nothing sensible in using the wrong tool for the job. Yes black gold etc might capitalise on game shooting and the money involved to inflate their price, no question. But seriously, why don't we see 32 grams of 8 shot from hull, gamebore etc? Why do nearly all manufacturers sell a pigeon load containing sixes, they as have many others, have done their research based on facts and years of experience. Telling people to shoot 71/2,s on game is irresponsible. Still, an ounce of sixes for geese sounds the ticket too...,