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About impala59

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    Mitcham Surrey

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  1. Pump Club

    That's great shooting Throdgrain! I hope you can make the next comp! in the interests of the pump fraternity we should all aspire to, and ultimately achieve high scores with our chosen tools. Autumn for the next shoot with, hopefully, The Shootist defending his crown.
  2. Pump Club

    Lovely piece of wood there! I passed on one of these a while ago (with an advertised broken slide assembly) I'm ashamed to say I did not even go and view it! I wish I had now as the quality is evident and making slide bars is not the most difficult thing I'm sure. I will be sure to look out for them in future as a quality addition to the collection, thanks for pics! my search list now with Marlin 120, includes Mossberg Slugster 500, Ithaca DSPS 37, (Always) Remington Model 31, Remington Model 10, Remington Model 17 to name but a few
  3. Pump Club

    Welcome Captain! Hope to see your posts on the pump club pages, the biggest single thread on the forum! Interesting info about the DSPS 37s, I seem to recall now that “trigger over-ride” was the hyped phrase in the ‘80s. Explains the presence of these oddities this side of the pond and adds a little to the Ithaca story, thank you
  4. Pump Club

    I would use the sort of glue that plastic modellers use, should be strong enough and looks similar to that showing on your picture. Also it’s not so strong that it’s irreversible.
  5. Practical Shotgun

    maybe trade up later for the 590 box fed when they become available....... 20 round double stack mags et al....
  6. Pump Club

    Pick your brains if I may guys! I was using one of my section 2 model 37s on some clays and got a problem fail. The magazine spring appeared in the ejection port as the follower end had separated from the tubular section. This old gun had a metal follower which just seems to have disintegrated with age. I actually have a spare modern nylon follower but due to the S2 crimp and magazine being permanently fixed to the receiver I can’t get in to replace it. Not sure how the tube is fixed, doesn’t seem welded or brazed, maybe permanent loctite? any ideas gentlemen?
  7. Does gun buying ever stop?

    + 1 What he said!
  8. Pump Club

    Don't know about the rust problem, my 870 Wingmaster has no finish/protective treatment on it at all at the moment, it looks kike stainless! I intend to cera-cote or dura-cote or may even try one of the new excellent heat/scratch resistant exhaust type paints available on the web. but back to my point, I have used the gun in all weathers and cleaned/oiled/ protected as is my usual regime, I have no rust issues with my 870. Yes, the ejector is riveted, a cost saving when the 870 replaced the superb Model 31, I don't actually know of anyone who has had a problem with it and I guess a new gun would be covered by the warranty anyway. With sticky ammunition, I would simply not buy it again, all pumps and autos can suffer ammunition dramas and finding what works is the name of the game, I use Bornaghi high brass for everything, no problems. You won't go far wrong with an 870, 10 million or so sold so can't be all bad! Pic is my 870 in the raw Check this out. Come on now, you know you want one!!!!! http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/
  9. Picatinny rail shooting loose

    +1, my rails on shotguns come loose if I don't use loc-tite (be aware, there are several different strengths though, as WW suggests blue non permanent is best) oil probably not helping also
  10. modern winchester date of manufactor

    Try winchesterowners.com
  11. Pump Club

    I can't find any references to 24" barrelled DSPS's. All US issued DSPS are 20" or 18.5". There are many unconfirmed stories of 37s being brought over the pond by US servicemen, but it seems a little strange that they would bring what is essentially a slug gun and parkerised at that. I have seen Cutts compensators brazed on to 20 inchers to make them legal which may suggest some came in that way though. I am guessing that maybe someone was importing these guns back in the '80s which would explain the UK legal barrel length but I can find no actual evidence. My reference books do not even list a DSPS with 24" barreI. Having said that there are many odd 37s out there. The factory was renowned for using whatever parts were in stock at the time! My old (Much missed) DSPS, Parkerised, Plain receiver, Raybar sight, Choate Machine Tool furniture, 7 + 1 was also 24" cylinder bore, It must have been earlier as it had the original trigger (pre '75) Sadly let that one go a long time ago, wish I could find it again. Whilst digging through stuff I pulled out a couple of paragraphs which may interest the Pump Club; Extracts from Project Gutenberg (US Munitions document 1917-18) When American troops were in the heat of the fighting in the summer of 1918, the German government sent a protest through a neutral agency to our Government asserting that our men were using shotguns against German troops in the trenches. The allegation was true; but our State Department replied that the use of such weapons was not forbidden by the Geneva Convention as the Germans had asserted. Manufactured primarily for the purpose of arming guards placed over German prisoners, these shotguns were undoubtedly in some instances carried into the actual fighting. The Ordnance Department procured some 30,000 to 40,000 shotguns of the short-barrel or sawed-off type, ordering these from the regular commercial manufacturers. The shell provided for these guns each contained a charge of nine heavy buckshot, a combination likely to have murderous effect in close fighting. And....as its Pigeon Watch, a little snippet I noticed Although nearly every European army for 40 years has trained the carrier pigeon to be a field messenger, the American Army never adopted the bird until 1917. In a single year the Signal Corps established hundreds of pigeon lofts in this country and overseas and bought and trained more than 15,000 pigeons for service in France. In actual use on the field the pigeons delivered more than 95 per cent of the messages intrusted to them, flying safely through the heaviest shell and gas barrages. A couple of extracts from............ US Combat Shotguns by Leroy Thompson (recommended reading! Google it) It was towards the end of the 19th century, however, that the weapon that would really be the forerunner for US 20th-century combat shotguns was developed – the Winchester Model 1897 (M97) 12-gauge pump-action shotgun. Early in its production, a short-barrelled “riot gun” version of the M97 was developed. It was soon in action in the Philippines against Moro Juramentados (“oath-takers”). While other weapons, even the .30-caliber Krag rifle, might not stop a fanatical attacker, the M97 Riot Gun loaded with buckshot generally did. It was as the M97 Trench Gun, however, that the Winchester achieved iconic status. Reportedly, General John Pershing was a major supporter of the issuance of shotguns to US troops during World War I, possibly because of his memories of their effectiveness during the Philippine Insurrection. As the name implies, the trench gun was developed for the trench fighting in World War I. Known to US infantrymen as the “trench broom” or “trench sweeper,” the M97 Trench Gun performed that function admirably. Troops could clear a German assault on a trench by quickly pumping the shotgun and sending buckshot pellets the length of the trench. Doughboys and Marines found the trench shotgun very effective when clearing German positions as well, especially when the enemy was inside dugouts or buildings. The major criticism was not of the M97 Trench Gun but of its ammunition, which used paper shell-casings that did not hold up in the trenches. Late in the war the availability of 12-gauge buckshot rounds loaded into brass cases alleviated the ammunition problems. and............ The US Marines found the shotgun especially valuable during the jungle fighting in the Pacific during WW2. They considered it second only to the belt-fed machine gun in stopping massed Japanese attacks.
  12. Pump Club

    100% in agreement regarding “slam fire” being a by-product of simple design and function. As far as military use is concerned, I believe that all functions would be explored and utilised as necessary. Training would be designed to get the best from the individual, the weapon and the ammunition. In a trench, tunnel, dense jungle or similar environment it may have been prudent to attempt to clear it rapidly (conjecture on my part) ”Slam Fire “ is a term that the Model 37 seems to have been labelled with and I agree that in PSG it is not really practical at all! Interestingly, many years ago in the early days of PSG we occasionally had a course of fire that specified ‘hip’ or ‘instinctive ‘ shooting. My old DSPS, slamfired, was pretty useful in that type of stage
  13. Pump Club

    I will do a bit of research regarding the 24" Barrel DSPS but suspect that you are correct about the civilian version. I will let you know. To ascertain the trigger type when dry firing, stick a small piece of tape on the bolt face, cycle and check for perforation
  14. Pump Club

    Do you know which year it is? I have the serial numbers list if you wish a copy PM me with email address and I'll copy for you. The year will determine the trigger function type, 1. Original (most call it slam fire) 2. Standard 3. Interrupter (rarest) I posted on the Ithaca Owners site my thoughts on the history of the trigger types which you may find interesting, pasted below: This has been a subject that has bugged me for a time now and so after a little research I now present what I feel is a definitive answer (maybe setting myself up for a fall there) Firstly some (I won't call them facts as am sure to be reprimanded!) information, relevant to the subject There are three different types of trigger for the model 37, the slam fire, the standard and the fire interrupter. The slam fire dates from the beginning 1937 up to circa 1975 and so may be also called the Original. The standard, introduced in around 1975 until current and the fire interrupter introduced around 1976 predominantly for LE use. I am somewhat vague with dates as production used up old parts and items on the shelf in stores were sometimes modified. Also the Ithaca Gun Co. was famous for oddities during production 1 Slam Fire (Original) trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger held back during the reload cycle, the next round will fire as the bolt goes into battery, the slide will trip the hammer sear. If the trigger is released during the action cycle, the hammer will remain in the down/back position until the trigger is pulled again 2 Standard trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger is held back during the cycle the hammer will not be retained by the sear and will follow or ride the bolt back into battery, it will have insufficient inertia to hit the firing pin and so will sit in the up/forward position behind a live round and the gun will not fire until the trigger is released and the action cycled again (live round ejected) If the trigger is released during the reload cycle the gun will fire as normal as the hammer will be retained by the sear awaiting another trigger pull. 3 Fire Interrupter trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger is held back, the hammer will be retained by a second sear, and, as the action is cycled and another round loaded releasing and pulling the trigger will fire the next shot. Again, if the trigger is released during the action cycle, the second sear is redundant and the normal sear takes effect. The Model 37 was developed from the Remington Model 17 and shares most of that guns design and features (JM Browning designed) In the early thirties Ithaca were looking at developing a pump gun and also seriously looked at the Winchester. How history could have been different! In the end patent expiry and the offer of manufacturing equipment from Remington (who had discontinued the M17 and were developing the M31) pointed the way. Now both of these potentials would 'slam fire', not as a feature but simply that was the way the mechanism worked. The Model 37 has the fewest internal parts of any pump action shotgun, it is this simplicity that has seen the gun through the last 80 years. Our grandfathers never saw the "danger of death" motto on every item that they purchased as we do today. They used common sense particularly with firearms. The so called 'slam fire ' was normal on many guns at that time. Today, litigation is king and we are treated as though we cannot think for ourselves or take responsibility for our actions. The military use of shot guns goes back way beyond the scope of this post, so I shall confine myself to the famous WW1 German demand for the banning of the trench gun (the also slam firing Winchester 1897) as a vile weapon when used by the doughboys for clearing trenches. How much worse than grenades, poison gas and artillery I can't imagine. One can imagine slamming your pump for all you were worth to clear a trench. The M37 was used in WW2 but it seems to have been most popular in Vietnam as a Platoon point weapon, where, using 00 buck, 72 9mm lead projectiles could be fired into the jungle in a few seconds using the slam fire. Additionally, a duck bill spreader was developed to improve the sideways spread. This formidable weapon was unsurpassed in this role. I believe that US military trainers would take into account the performance and features of any given weapon and train their users appropriately, maybe some of the Veterans on this forum would know for sure and feel able to comment. With Law Enforcement the issue is a little different. A LE officer who, using a slam fire trigger model 37 in a stressful situation, may keep his/her finger pressed on the trigger during an engagement or firefight and may well then encounter an Accidental/Negligent Discharge during the course of his or her duty. This, of course, the lawyers would jump all over. Like wise, using a standard trigger M37 in the same situation could find the officer with a dead gun in his or her hands with potentially fatal consequences. So was developed the 'fire interrupter' trigger which prevents both of these situations, albeit at the cost of some of the great simplicity of the M37 design. For sportsmen, hunters, wing shooters, clay busters, IPSC competitors and the like, any of the triggers will be as usable and safe as any other. With a sound knowledge of your gun (and shouldn't we all have that as a matter of course?) all of these triggers are safe. I should mention here that early guns that are worn should not be slam fired as there is a possibility of the hammer striking before the bolt is locked, any gunsmith or the Ithaca Gun Co. itself would be able to check and rectify. I do not know if the 'Fire interrupter' trigger is available from the Gun Co., it is mainly LE but was apparently offered as an option to the civilian market. Over this side of the pond, most things Ithaca are rare and very few LE guns have made the crossing! To finish I have satisfied myself that I understand how things were and are now, we all know that our M37's will always be referred to as that 'slam fire gun' I just think that we have firearms with a little more history than most and maybe that's why they seem to have more character than most. The above is my opinion only and quoted information is from a number of publications, primarily the excellent books by Walter Snyder and by examination of my collection and also those of some of my shooting pals. If I have wrongly quoted anything regarding US Military or LE practice then I am happy to stand corrected The original question posed by Mark (ChAoS) was about why have slam fire? I believe that in a different age it was simply why not? This was a tried and tested mechanism and, the gun would always fire and not fail when called upon, for defence or putting food on the table. All this achieved simply with few parts and the genius of JMB. Any documentation would be on the standard and fire interrupter trigger as these are the modifications from the original.