Anglo

SOLD

Specification Manufacturer: Joker Gauge: 12 Load: 28g Shot Size: 7.5 Wad: Plastic Quantity Approx 5000 available I hope they will go all at once or in lots of 1000. I can give away some fiocchi pigeon cartridges If they all go at once. Price £175 per 1000 Location Derbyshire-Nottinghamshire border

FYI, I went with Country Cover Club in the end, as a non-political option.

Are you saying that overboring only starts to make sense when used with steel & plastic wads? Unfortunately, I'm moving away from plastic wads but realise it might become the norm if we all change to steel.

Continued Gough Thomas’s Gun Book We find the method referred to here On pages 160 to 164 with a simple experiment, he demonstrates that the Burrard method is not completely sound for the reasons we have already given. John Bridle – Shotgun Shooting Techniques & Technology Brindle explains the reality of the pellet distribution. On Page 204 he has something to say about the work of Burrard which is a lot less restrained than Thomas. My choice of Gun From what I have read about the pros/cons overbored barrels, the perceived benefits of lower recoil & better patterns are actually caused by a reduction in velocity, which can be achieved simply by using a slower cartridge. Its certainly not worth the major disadvantage of poor obtruation with certain fibre wads, leading to balling. I really like the Maxus I bought this year, its light, well built and the speed-load makes it so easy to use… I just wish Browning wouldn't offer only .742 overbore barrels on the majority of their guns. The same can be said for other manufacturers. My impressions I’ve really got the impression that my fathers & grandfathers generation had a better grasp on shotgun performance than my own generation. They had bores of nominal diameter, my father has always expressed to me that true cylinder to quarter choke produces better patterns than half choke and upwards, and 30 & 32 gram no7 loads sound more common back in his day. Today with my generation, overbore barrels are very common, its also common for people the use too much choke and then when they are not satisfied with performance they increase shot size and load – its not commonly understood that what we usually need is more pellets spread evenly. What am I going to do I think I shall re-evaluate the Eley patterns using the Oberfell & Thompson when I have time and go from there. I recognise the importance of choosing fibre wads carefully when using a overbored barrel. I’ve looked into 7 shot in 30 and 32 gram loads. Under £300 a thousand, the only option I have found is Lylavale Express Special Game 30g – £297 for Fibre Wad on Just Cartridges who tend to be little over priced anyway. Not cheap, but I’d like to try them if I can get a box. Allegedly, they are available in 32g too. As suggested, I'm also interested in Gamebore Super Game High Bird 28g and Gamebore Blue Diamond 28g.

Research I’ve read the relevant sections of the books I have access too. I don’t have a copy of Burrard - The Modern Shotgun but the work is referenced in the books I do have. A big thank you to Stonepark for sharing is own extremely detailed shotgun ballistics spreadsheets with with me. I now better understand what I think wymberley was trying to put across: The BASC method I used is fundamentally the same an Burrard’s method, using figures supposedly supplied Roster (who is american). There will always we a Gaussian distribution; more pellets a central 20 inch circle than the outer 20-30 inch ring. Getting the area of the bird wrong ruins the calculation. The requirement for an average of 6 shots in each bird can result in an unreasonably high requirement for average pellet count, leading to the use of a tight choke all the time, which we know is daft because of what it does at close range. This method assumes an even the distribution of pellets across the 30 inch circle, which is also also daft. I now better understand what I think Stonepark was trying to put across: 7 shot provides typically provides enough energy for pigeon beyond up-to 40 yards & beyond, so why not take the advantage of a the higher number of pellets it a given load. That last point really makes me question all the present day norms manufacturers, writers and crack shots. Gough Thomas - Shotguns and Cartridges for Game and Clays In chapter 4 he explains the Burrard method. Note that half way down page 55 he criticises the method. In Chapter 5 under Critical Appraisal of Patterns, he briefly explains and refers to ‘a more convenient and reliable method’ of judging patterns derived from Oberfell and Thompson, given in his Gun Book.

When I want to look for carts, i use the Just Cartridges website because you can filter for shot size etc and see different prices for what you want.

I strongly suggest buying a single box and testing it before committing to a great quantity. That goes for all brands.

Understandable, no need to apologise. I couldn't ask simply question without expecting being questioned in turn. I couldn't expect to state my reasons without others wishing to state theirs. I will check the excess at some point. For insurance alone, I doubt the BASC offers good value at £82. best answer so far, I sense we are aligned on this matter.

All good points. The secrecy of it all is the worst part.

I set the bar low by limiting the scope of what I want: 'Good insurance, good advice and a little help with certificates should the worst happen' I'm not looking for an org' that will share all my views/interests and lobby for them. I'm looking for one that won't ask for lots of money, then use than money to actively lobby against my interests. So far the suggestions have been: CPSA - £51 Neutral - Not part of the lead ban folly, but not against it either Cons - May become disinterested when a game/pigeon shooter falls into difficulty with the police. Scottish Association for Country Sports (SACS) - £43 Pros - sounds helpful on firearms licensing matters, see: https://www.sacs.org.uk/membership/firearms-licensing Cons - Part of the lead bad folly Scottish Gamekeepers Association - £40 Pros - Against the lead ban folly, see https://news.scottishgamekeepers.co.uk/2020/02/the-sga-and-lead-shot.html Cons - Seems to be a smaller and more niche organisation. If the worst happened, how much assistance on licencing could one really expect? Country Cover Club - £32 Pros - Insurance only, no lead ban folly or other lobbying to worry about. 'Free Consultation with Specialist Shotgun, Firearms, Explosives and Licence Revocation Solicitor'. '24-Hour Revocation of Licence and Legal Advice Helpline' Cons - ? for Reference, BASC membership is £82

Thank you to wymberley and Stonepark for the detail you have offered. I still have all the patterns. I think I need to go away and do some more reading & calculating before I draw any further conclusions. I'm quite interested in the use of no7, spotted it here a few weeks ago: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/who-needs-bigger-balls- The idea of using quality 'clay' loads seems to be a good one.

I assume you are referring to the clay cartridges I have for sale. I used a few in the early investigatory testing to check POA/POI making sure we were carrying out the method properly before moving onto cartridges under test. The patterns looked good, we didn't do a pellet count because I have never seen a suggested average pellet count for clays. I can assure you they smash clays at 40 yards.

Thank you. On point 3, are you introducing a distinction between vital area and vunerable area? I.e. Vital area = 3 sq inch Vunerable area = 16 sq inch If you are, it creates a 4th question as to which should be used.

Right, that makes sense now when I read back through it all. There are three issues at hand: 1/ should it be 3 hits on each pigeon (uk), or 6 on average (usa/basc), or should the idea be scrapped 2/ Is the pattern assumed to be even which brings into question the vailidity of a 30 inch over a 20 inch circle 3/ the vital area of a pigeon in sq inch Time for some opinion. What do you do personally when patterning in order to be satisfied that you've done your best?

Quote: The main game-shooting organisations in the UK (BASC, CA, CLA, GWCT, NGO, BGA, and MA) have today released a statement encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot and single use plastics for game shooting with shotguns. The transition will happen gradually over the next five years. This decision is being taken due to recent legislation discussions in Europe that would see lead banned from consumer products, including game meat. Some UK supermarkets are already refusing to accept game that has been shot with lead, and the European market also buys a large proportion of UK game. We at the CPSA have been involved in the discussions with the game-shooting organisations and whilst we understand their decision to voluntarily remove lead from their sport, this will have no effect on clay-target shooting. The way I read that is, It's not that they didn't sign up to it because they didn't agree with it, its because they didn't feel threatened by it.

Robust is a excellent word for what I'm after. I've just read their statement, I like it, but I do wonder what they mean by That said, if quantitative and comparative science on lead in foodstuffs comes forward to suggest real dangers to eating products containing traces of lead then, of course, due diligence must be heeded.' My view is simply that where lead is likely to be found, it should be adequately labelled, which as far as I'm aware it already is. There are many other potentially harmful foods & drinks in the supermarket, alcoholic beverages for instance. I can't see how we as a nation could be more diligent than we already being, without creating a contradiction.

That's two recommendations for Scottish organisations. Is there a trend of Scottish organisations behaving in a different manor?

You know what, I never considered them because of 'Clay' in the title. Good shout.

You are correct, its lads banter and out of place on a thread about a serious subject.

Thanks for the compliment. It even has a solid wheel so it can't be punctured by shot. This is a little bit hard to follow. To clarify, are you saying it should OR should not be be 3 hits each and 6 on average? Where it says TC do you mean true cylinder? If I can't get solid data, I may just end up with a pigeon shape drawn on clear acetate sheet, which i then place over the pattern and judge it by eye. I wouldn't fuss, its not one size up or down that caused such poor performance.

I don't expect perfection, just not so many own goals. Like i said good insurance, good advice and a little help on certificates should the worst happen. I can do without the politics for now.

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My BASC membership is up for renewal, its expensive and I'm not impressed with the legal/political representation a member gets for his money these days. To clarify, the two areas I'm most disappointed with are as follows: 1/ GP reports for certificate applications and renewals. I'm not opposed to this idea in principle although i think the original implementation was a bodge. What I am opposed to is that certain constabularies have made this mandatory, against home office guidance and as far as I can tell without legal authority to do so. Our elected representatives in parliament have not seen fit to update the law, there is no legal requirement, but some of us are living under pseudo-law created by our so called public servants. So what does the BASC do with this situation... Its says it 'strongly opposes' then simply provides an avenue around the problem by putting members in touch with a friendly doctor, which is very helpful to the individual member but also sets precedent for us all, as though we accept the whole situation. I think too often we indulge the whims and fantasies of chief constables, rather than demand that they enforce the law as written, equally for all, no more no less. If Wild Justice can challenge the legality of general licences, why can't the very well funded BASC challenge public authorities for not following the laws & guidance they themselves are supposed to implement. If they had done so years ago, perhaps we wouldn't be in a situation where shooters up & down the land have to live under all sorts of pseudo-law relating to good reason, choice of gun, ammo, variations, land deemed suitable etc. And I've not even gone into the unreasonable costs of all this! We are always in retreat when it comes to regulation surrounding shooting, rather than holding authority to account. 2/ The lead shot fiasco. I would have been for us all moving away from plastic wads, its ecologically sound, its technically feasible, many of us do this anyway, we could have done it ASAP and chalked it up as win! Trying to ban plastic & lead at the same time, when as far as i can tell there is no real political pressure in the UK to do so, seems utterly moronic. The pressure on us is about bloodshed, it about the furry foxie woxies etc, not about the lead we use. Those are my opinions, they are unlikely to change. I'm not after a debate on these two issues. I just thought I'd answer the question before someone asks why. What i want to know is, if a man feels strongly about these things, would he be better off becoming a member of a different shooting organisation which is more aligned with his views? And if so which one? The criteria is: Good insurance, good advice and a little help with certificates should the worst happen.

For reference, here is a read out of some of the early investigatory testing. NC means not counted because the pattern was so bad; lack of holes & big holes where the shot had balled. What we learnt was the Fiocchi was equally bad in the Affinity, therefore it was not a choke/gun problem.