Gas seal

I noticed in the film reason for not using lead pellets was for commercial reasons, the sale of game. It’s the same with pigeon shooters not using lead pellets, the sale of the pigeons. Lead hasn’t been used for shooting Wildfowl for over twenty years, for environmental reasons. Have NRW said anything about the proposed regulations for the release of game birds, would this include mallard. A license was required to kill game, do they propose a license to release game.

When the consultation is released I think it will be to reply on the website only A tick box. I took part in the general license consultation and I hand written my response and posted it. I read somewhere that it’s now changed to on line response. We will see what happens tomorrow, it will be on the government website.

Not using lead ammunition is up to the individual shooters, (today) ,the same as not shooting woodcock until December. There are other things happening that will effect shooters and shooting organisations . Firearms laws, sssi sites, the game laws and shooting seasons chances are they will be updated. There’s a lot of laws to do with shooting , wildlife acts ,and firearms laws. Some laws are well over one hundred years old . Someone said when were shooters ever united, I don’t think they ever will be united. How many shooters looked at the old general license, or look at the new one before using it to see if has been updated. How many look at the 1954 pest act before shooting rabbits to see if they are allowed to. Shooting organisations and individual shooters will be busy this year. A lot of things have been taken for granted for a long time and a lot will change for all of us.

The (post office ) gun license was to carry and use a gun not to own one. The first police license was to own a gun . I was told at the time that l just had to ask the police for a license. It’s changed a lot since then. Now guns are called weapons more than shot guns or firearms. The question will be why do you want a gun and what will you be doing with it. It will be harder to get a license for shotguns and firearms. When children are killed with firearms, legally held or illegally held, something will have to be changed.

Hi the cx2000 primer and the cci209m are the same size at 0.243 inches. The cci209m is the hotter primer then cx2000 .theCCI 209 is (cooler) . The data I use for Alliant steel power is using cx2000 primer . Are you loading steel shot.

Hi yes wild fowlers will use magnum steel cartridges with large pellets . The American shooters are loading a lighter and faster steel load. I have loaded fast lighter load of steel l used csb0 and AO powder I found this gave me less recoil . In the USA they call it TTT time to target. Recoil will be the next thing for the manufacturers using different powder and primer, fiocchi and Cheddite now have a hotter primer . Ballistic products in USA have done testing on the primers . Hull cartridges make 20gauge three inch steel cartridges 28 grams of shot for pheasant shooters with a bio type wad. Cartridges for a ten year old would be 410 or 28gauge bismuth, expensive to learn with, or hand load steel cartridges for them. It’s not just the recoil on any magnum cartridges in a lighter gun it’s the (vibration) on the face. I would have thought shooting high pheasants would be with a heavier gun with a longer barrel and a heavy lead cartridges. There are plenty of steel cartridges to choose from I would just select one to suit the gun.

it’s the government that plans to phase out lead ammunition in a bid to protect wildlife and the environment with a two year process to review evidence. Decisions to be made on the regulation of chemicals based on the best available scientific evidence. This has been coming for a long time. It will effect all of us. The use of lead ammunition is restricted by the environmental protection regulations 1999. One way of looking at the regulations was when some wildflowers asked why is everyone else exempt and still using lead. I don’t think what was said in 2016 would influence the government to phase out lead ammunition. I don’t think a voluntary phase out of lead ammunition will influence the government. The only way is with scientific evidence, all the evidence I see is against lead in the environment put there by shooters. Unless scientific evidence for the use of lead is put forward it looks like the 1999 regulations will be updated. As conservationists we need the best scientific evidence to show lead ammunition is safe for the environment. I’ve read a lot of papers on lead pellets over the years and it’s a lot of reading against lead pellets in the environment. A lot of us do things and give our time to support shooting and shooting has changed and will see more change.

I started shooting before the shotgun certificate came out. When the shot gun permit from the police came out in 1968 I called at the police station for two forms for my brother and myself we completed the form and got our license. A lot of shooters said that it was the end of shooting, some of my friends never bothered to get the license. In the 1980s the firearms law changed but BASC had an agreement with the crown to allow members to use the foreshore for fowling, shooters not in any clubs thought it was the end of shooting for them. The late 90s the lead shot ban , the end of wildfowling no . The change in the general licence , now the talk of the (lead shot ban) , and plastic wads, again is it the end of shooting. Cardboard wads for non lead pellets are nothing new I’ve used them for reloading non lead shot for about 15 years . That’s a lot of change. We may all have to change our way of shooting. If BASC are encouraging youngsters into shooting that’s a good thing, I don’t see many youngsters coming in to the sport it must be difficult for them unless they are brought up with shooting.

I’m alright Jack, that was said a lot to wild Fowler’s when lead was banned for wildfowl. A voluntary none use of lead ammunition will never work, look at the game and wildlife conservation trust (lead ammunition today) . See how many ducks were shot with lead ammunition over 20 years. No one ever prosecuted for shooting them or selling them. Look at the voluntary season for woodcock. I can’t see commercial shoots loosing 8 weeks shooting at maybe a thousand pounds a day. I know a lot of shooters and small shoots don’t shoot them until late November or just don’t shoot them. Shooters on this website have changed to steel cartridges, is it for the environment or a better price for the pigeons that they shoot. Maybe they could comment. Yes The phase out of plastic wads will be next, single use plastic. A lot is said about lead in other things, l don’t see that will help to keep lead in ammunition. The classic one was about the school kids chewing on their lead pencils, so it must be ok. BlaserF3 asked the question and got replies, again I trust the BASC, I’ve no reason not to.

BlaserF3. Yes I do. . The BASC has done a lot of work for wildflowers, and still is doing good work for them. Crown leases, shooting consents , a lot of time to help keep clubs shooting .Wild Fowler’s have seen all this before, and if clubs have any problems with BASC they will communicate with them. Some time ago I watched an interview on tv with a spokesperson for fox hunting, his reasons for keeping hunting was shooting them would result in to many wounded foxes, I’ve heard the same said about steel pellets wounding game. Maybe shooters should just blame everyone else, until there’s no one left to blame.

The pellets recovered from 235 of the pheasants purchased were tested. Approximately one third of the pheasants must have no pellets in the meat, to many for the pellets to pass through all of them. More likely the pellets were removed by the meat processor, more so if they were shot with steel pellets. This would make the test unreliable.

Hi yes it is legal, l know the law. I’ve no interest in the sale of game birds dead or alive, even less interest in commercial shooting . Maybe they don’t mean a thing, it means nothing to me. A few years ago there was a similar thing about wildfowl shot with lead. I thought game shooters would like to know what is happening. The same for woodcock shooters.

Hi regarding small gauge shot guns , how many.22 and 9mm will be registered and would it be possible to find out. . Also there must be 24gauge shot guns registered as cartridges are available and loading components are available. Knowing the numbers of guns involved may help and who makes the ammunition for them. I know fiocchi make 9mm and 24gauge cartridges, they also make older types of firearm rounds. Another survey has been done on lead pellets in shop bought game birds, and the woodcock season will be discussed in parliament today 4. 30pm ish if anyone is interested. Please don’t shoot the messenger, lead or non lead.

Hi kitchrat could I ask about the condition of the pigeons you have shot . I have been shooting pigeon over rape for four or five weeks, they are healthy and (plump) for the time of the year. My friend took a few pigeons today and said they were good birds .

Hi Holloway it’s not the weather for me to be testing cartridges. I have a few to test, l might try some bismuth in the.410 . The TPS wads in .410 and 28 are hard to find at the moment. Good luck with your reloading.

Hi damage can be to the forcing cones with tss. As stone park said to use a cartridge to suit the chamber length in any gauge. I loaded.410 with with blue dot, Alliant steel and csb0 powders, TPS wad and 150grains of steel 7shot . I never tried to load steel shot with a different type of wad in 410. There is data on 410 tss , it’s the TPS wads that are hard to find. I had some .410 TPS wads and components ,I recently gave them the a member on this site I don’t know if he loaded them. I have never had any problems with tss it’s never penetrate any wad l have used.

Hi duplex tss and steel , the steel can be used as a filler for a tss load ,or tss with a steel load for a better pattern. I loaded 37grams of steel pellets and 7grams of tss in 12gauge . This gave a better pattern than 42grams of steel. I loaded steel, tss duplex with steel , and just tss in 28gauge with different types of wads . I put the tss at the bottom of the wad with duplex loads. When duplex loads are mentioned shooters think of the duplex lead loads with different size of pellets in the cartridges.

Hi I’ve been banned from using lead for over twenty years like a lot of other people. It’s against the law, a lot of wildflowers have only known non lead cartridges for wildfowl. I’ve gave a couple of reasons for using lead shot . If another lead ban becomes law l would say that the.22 rimfire has more chance exemption for using in the field. The evidence that lead shot is toxic to me is falconers won’t feed lead shot birds to there bird’s.I have sold and given a lot of steel shot pigeons for animal food it takes a lot of trust for that. Not one of them has asked or would take anything shot with lead. As for the numbers of grey partridge in the 1800s maybe the photo will explain why. Shooting is under attack, is it five gamekeepers prosecuted for killing birds of prey and it will be business as usual on these estates. Shooting will always be under attack.

Hi that’s a good response for using lead shot for trap shooting. If I was a member of a clay shooting club l would be looking into grants available to sporting clubs. Council’s have departments for sports grants, and are asking people to apply. hi I know other products contain lead but the HSE are involved with lead ammunition. Any enquiries concerning lead in other products should be discussed with the HSE . I doubt they will allow or disallow lead ammunition just because it’s on a roof or anywhere else.

Hi I was watching an international top class shooting competition on tv . I noticed fine nets in the background it was to collect spent shot. Lead shot was banned from the site, I think it was Birmingham were the competition was. I’ve also seen nets in the USA shooting competitions. I’m sure the clay shooters will know about it. Its not the first time, or the last time this will happen. No doubt the HSE will point this out to target shooters. hi Conor I doubt anyone has raised the issue of moderators with the HSE I don’t think anyone has noticed it on the general license. It’s also applicable to.22 rime fire. I have tested and used non lead pellets in.177 for the range of my air rifle they will work. I’ve not seen or used any non lead.22 rime fire rounds. Rime fire.22 that are used for pest control most will have a moderator fitted. I doubt if any lead would remain in the animal or birds shot , unless from segmented rounds. The spent round would be to large to be picked up by birds for grit .if birds ingest lead pellets it won’t kill them outright, it’s a poison like it or not. The long term problem could be addled eggs or chicks not surviving. We have a license for pest control, moderated firearms are part of the license. The way I see it is moderated fire arms should be exempted from any legation regarding lead. I think that’s a good response for some of the shooting I do.

Hi we have had discussions about tobacco sales and other products and lots of different things containing lead when lead was banned. Most of them were smoking at the time. Tobacco products aren’t advertised and are sold from (under the counter) maybe game meat will be sold in the same way. That’s a business matter. Lead has already been banned for a long time, now it’s banned from the top shooting competitions unless it’s collected from the site. It was banned, agree or disagree, for its impact on the wildfowl and the environment. It wasn’t because wildfowl was sold containing lead pellets. The next vehicle of attack, for game shooting, is the sssi and other sites regarding pheasant release and shooting. A lot of people are looking at the condition , when they were last reviewed and what is happening on these sites. Hi Conor regarding lead shot exemptions for small gauge shotguns and air rifles for pest control. I use a moderated.410 and a moderated air rifle. It’s obviously to minimise disturbance. It’s recommended on the general licence to use moderated shotguns or firearms to reduce disturbance for nesting birds. I have used steel pellets in.410 but I wouldn’t fire them through a fully moderated.410 this could be a valid reason for exemption when using the general license. Bismuth would be to soft steel would be to hard. When BASC tested non lead air gun pellets did they test them with and without a moderator. When tested in 12 fb guns did you increase the power to see if they improved any. I tested them in .177 12fb I thought if I could increase the power a bit at a time it would have improved the pellets. I don’t have a fac air gun. I know some guns do have adjustable power .

Hi Conor when the lead shot ban for wildfowl became law wildflowers had arguments about lead shot, about lead pipes and lead flashing and soakers . When arguments changed to discussion it was about the effect on the wildfowl. The lead that they ingested and the (rubbish) steel cartridges that could wound them. We made better cartridges not to kill more wildfowl but to kill the birds cleanly. The discussion was about the welfare of the wildfowl. If fifty million pheasants are released each year and twenty five percent die before the shooting season starts, except for the birds seen dead on the road has anyone seen the rest of them. Five million wood pigeons in the country (somewhere) with a lifespan of three years. I don’t see dead pigeons all over the place. (From natural causes). Or any other birds. Why would anyone think that they would find dead migrating wildfowl we can’t find the birds that died from bird flu.to some extent the numbers of wildfowl can be monitored by web counts.I noticed more pigeon shooters using steel cartridges, l don’t think it’s anything to do with the environment, it’s to sell the pigeons they have shot.Falconers take pigeons shot with steel pellets for their birds again nothing to do with the environment it’s because lead pellets will kill the birds of prey. I’ve not seen any argument or discussion about this anywhere. Maybe members on this site could say why they changed to steel and do they still use lead for other shooting. The Olympic Games shot gun competitions used lead cartridges and had nets to collect the spent shot. If they didn’t use nets no shooting. Lead shot is regulated and will be more regulated. The shooting industry must be unique in the way it uses lead and sells meat containing lead.

Hi Fellside I don’t think they are made now. I have hevi shot and ITM cartridges and use the shot for reloading. I don’t know if ITM is made any more. I have ITM shot and hevi shot I bought years ago for reloading. The hevi shot cartridges did pattern well with open chokes. I only use these shots for geese. In 2005 the hevi shot cost £28 per kg . I can’t remember what the cartridges price of the cartridges were. Hi islandgun I also loaded tss 7 shot in 28gauge it is brilliant. A lot more cartridges can be made with tss than power shot per kg and the tss lighter load will be a better cartridge. I wonder what the next type of shot will be.

Hi Fellside yes it did change ( shape)to pellets with a band, it’s changed again to a round pellet. The cartridges in the photos are the new improved cartridges, the pellets with the band, it gives the size in mm on the cartridges that would be impossible with the original hevi shot. The pellets in the photo are power shot . Hi islandgun if it’s hevi shot you will be reloading you would need the correct wad and it’s recommended to use open chokes with hevi shot. If it’s ITM pellets it’s more( like )reloading lead and good for loading in 10 and 8 gauge . Another pellet with a band is ITX I don’t know if it’s sold in commercial cartridges. grahamch maybe referring to the original hevi shot, the new improved hevi shot I have is 31 and 34gram loading .

Hi the hevi shot is rough it could cut through the wad. The tungsten matrix is soft. I have 12 gauge cartridges loaded with both types of shot. I take out the shot when l need it and load 28 and 20 gauge cartridges. I enclose photos of both types of shot for you. When the original hevi shot was first sold if it was loaded with the wrong wad the pellets that were fused together would penetrate through the wads. When I shot geese with hevi shot it made a bigger wound than lead because of the shape of the pellets.