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Does anyone out there know what these two tiny nodules are on the brass of a Lyalvale English Sporter 12 cartridge? Curiously, I have other batches of English Sporters that do not have them and they look too clean to be a deformation. I probably would not have noticed it, but they would not fit into the chamber of my Greener GP. Looking at other cartridges I've used, none of those have it. english sporter cartridge.mp4

I recently bought some Gamebore White Gold 28gm 7.5 Fibre Quad Seal hoping for decent results from a relatively premium cartridge. These were quite expensive compared to the Fiocchi FBlack Sporting 8.5s Fibre I usually use. I opened one up the other night to have a look at the quad seal. The first thing I noticed was the shot was meant to be 5x graded… It contained shot from 2.2mm to 3.0mm - not very uniform and noticeably all over the place. In fact, some pellets weren’t even round. Secondly, the quad seal was rock hard. I have no idea how it was expected to seal a barrel? I expected it to be more like nylon in feel allowing for expansion. I know these came from a supplier who has stored them properly, as I collected them from a sound environment. The last thing I noticed, is they are very ‘thumpy’, in fact overly for their use. They haven’t shot well either compared to the Fiocchi. Has anyone else experienced this? I generally steer wide of Gamebore game cartridges as I have had similar experiences in the past. A considerably expensive letdown.

Vintage unused 8bore cartridge with primer in by Eley. 4.25inch. £15. Contact me for more information Thanks

Eley first select 12 gauge plastic wad 7.5’s 28g 13 boxes (1 slab plus 3 boxes) - 325 cartridges total. £50 packing in shooting so need to go. collection only with valid SGC from Burton on Trent.

I have these but no longer shoot live, so looking to swap a full slab of 7.5 / 8 F/Wad clay cartridges. Obviously collection with valid SGC. Ashford Kent area

A reference post because I wish I had been able to find one. I have a Hatsan Junior 20G. If you are considering one of these you might like to know it shoots 21g plastic wad cartridges beautifully. It does not however shoot 21g fibre wad cartridges. Thanks to the awesome Mr @TIGHTCHOKE for sorting that one out for me. For the search engine: IMW A Hatsan Junior semi-automatic will not shoot 21g fibre wad cartridges. If anyone has evidence to the contrary please do post. The Hull fibre pro-ones are jolly good clay cartridges but there may be other brands that work in the semi-auto. Never say never.

Hypothesis The Fiocchi ‘Pigeon 32’ cartridges that I have been using appear to cause excessive wounding. Earlier investigatory testing on the pattern plate (at various ranges with various chokes) showed these cartridges behaved erratically; the pellets tended to stick together with a lot less pellets than expected hitting the target. Better shooting performance could be achieved by trying two readily available brands and undertaking pattern testing in the method described by John Harradine for the BASC, June 2013. To provide some context, here are some example results from earlier testing using a factory extended 1/2 choke (20 thou) at 40 yards: Fiocchi Pigeon 32g – 98 Eley Pigeon HV 32g - 168 Gamebore Clear Pigeon 32g - 171 Desired average – 140 Note: Based on this earlier testing, I invested in a 3/8 choke (15 thou). Method Shoot the pattern plate then draw a 30 inch circle over the centre of the pattern. The goal is to achieve the minimum average pellet count in a 30 inch circle, at the desired range, with at least 10 pattern tests per cartridge. For more detail on the method see: https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/340965-basc-pattern-test-we-need/ (I can’t find a copy of the original document) My specification is: Range = 40 yards Minimum average pellet count in 30 inch circle = 140 (for pigeon) Do no exceed 140 by too much as shooting is expected to be at 25 to 40 yards and the pigeon must be edible. In addition to the method described in the link, I have created two extra sets of data in an attempt to provide indicative results on how erratic a given cartridge can be. This is because its difficult if not impossible to consistently judge the evenness of a pattern with the human eye, but it is possible to collect data on the perceived errors in a pattern. Multiple Hits (MH) – This is the number of times pellets appear to have hit the same place at the same time; 2 hits in the same place gives a hole that looks like a figure of eight. Number of Pellets Together (NPT) – the total number of pellets that appear to have hit the same place at the same time; the sum of the pellets counted in multiple hits. For example: A pair of pellets hitting one place and a pair hitting another would be MH=2 NPT=4. Note: I have no way of knowing if 2 pellets did hit the target at the same time. Its possible one pellet was at the front of the shot cloud and one at the back. I do think its more likely that the pellets become stuck together in the barrel. Multiple Hits can be identified by multiple uniform curves around a hole in the target, this can be can be as high as 5. Its possibly why sometimes your quarry appears to have been ‘hit hard’ - it got it by 5 pellets in almost the exactly same place at the same time. Apparatus Gun: Browing Maxus, 26 inch barrel, Briley Helix Hunter ‘Mid-Range’ Choke (15 Thou) Medium: Lining paper from B&M Bargains Target: Mk2 Portable Pattern Plate (patent pending) Specifications of Cartridges under test Fiocchi: ‘Pigeon 32’ - 32 gram - No. 6 - Fibre Wad Eley: ‘Pigeon HV’ - 32 gram - No. 6 - Fibre Wad Gamebore: ‘Clear Pigeon’ - 32 gram - No. 6 - Fibre Wad Results Testing of the Fiocchi cartridges was not continued due to obvious poor performance; its not worth the time or effort. Conclusion The Fiocchi cartridges under test were of exceptionally poor quality. The pellet count and spread of the pattern was poor. This accounts for the excessive wounding. I have cut open some cartridges and found all the pellets are all separated so large amounts of pellets must stick together in the barrel. Perhaps the lead is too soft and/or the diameter of the wad does not provide sufficient obturation. Both the Eley and Gamebore cartridges gave much better results than the Fiocchi. With a 15 thou choke, the Eley cartridges achieved the desired average pellet count without exceeding it too much. With a 15 thou choke, the Gamebore cartridges did not achieve the desired average pellet count; 17% less pellets in a 30 inch circle when compared with the Eley. The standard deviation for pellet count was significantly lower for the Eley cartridges; 14.43 compared with 18.21 for Gamebore. Therefore the Eley cartridges are more consistent when compared to the Gamebore cartridges. The Gamebore cartridges had on average 27% more Multiple Hits and a 37.55% higher Number of Pellets Together. This is more evidence of inconsistency from the Gamebore cartridges when compared to the Eley cartridges. The Gamebore cartridges would benefit from a 20 thou choke to increase the average pellet count, although it is highly unlikely that this would improve consistency. Just because the Gamebore cartridge is marketed well with a nicely printed box and celebrity endorsement… it doesn't mean its any better than the competition. Notes on the Efficacy of the Method I’m satisfied that 10 tests per cartridge gave meaningful average and standard deviation values for pellet count, MH and NPT. If I stopped at 5 tests per cartridge, the results for average pellet count would have still been accurate enough to reach a worthwhile conclusion, although the Standard Deviation for pellet count would have been a lot less accurate. Scores for the first 5 tests only would have been as follows: In future, I am unsure as to weather I would spend the time & effort on 10+ tests for each cartridge if there is an obvious trend emerging after 5 tests. FAQ Q: Why did you bother with all this!? A: I was interested in the real world effects of different chokes & cartridge combinations and whether or not these match up to the gut feelings & rules of thumb people like to iterate. Q: What have you learnt so far? A: So far I've found that even if you stick to the same loads at a similar price, the choice of cartridge is very important, more important than choice of choke. I’ve never heard anyone say that before. I thinks its generally assumed that ‘similar’ cartridges behave in a similar way, but they certainly don’t. Q: Would you do it again? A: Yes, I plan to do this two more times; once for game and once for clays. Q: Why did you choose a Briley Helix Hunter ‘Mid-Range’ Choke? A: Its a 3/8 choke (15 thou) which was my best guess to achieve the desired average pellet count, based on earlier testing. Its advertised as being optimum for 25 to 40 yards using lead shot. Its aftermarket & extended which should give more consistent results with a wide variety of loads when compared to factory Invector chokes (based on information from American writers such as Randy Wakeman). Most importantly, I think it looks good on the end of a semi-auto. Q: Any tips for conducting pattern tests? A: It’s actually difficult to hit a stationary target at 40 yards in a consistent manor with a shotgun. I think this is because you are not moving you body, your muscles are not offering much resistance to recoil forces that are far higher than most rifles. This can lead to excessive barrel flip and throw the centre of the pattern so far off that the result is unusable. I used a semi-auto, I imagine this effect can be far worse with a double barrel. To achieve a consistent result, I mark my point of aim 2 thirds from the top to the target rather than half way down. I’ve found its best to mount the gun slightly over the top of the target, pulling tightly into the shoulder with both hands, slowly lower the gun on to the point of aim while breathing out, stop when out of breath & at the point of aim then finally pull the trigger. Do not hold on the point of aim as there is a tendency to drift side to side. My Portable Pattern Plate is 40 x 40 inches, I recommend 50 x 50 inches to alleviate this problem.

Hi Everyone, New Member to the forum, Been Clay Shooting just over a year now and loving every minute of it. You will usually find me at JJ's Shooting ground in Dartford on a Saturday or Sunday trying to get my name on the scoreboard. My Bang stick is a Benelli 828u Sport or the Beretta A400Xcel Black. Ammo i use is Fiocchi F3 piston / Black Sport Been using the Lyalvel express English Sporter last couple of weeks as i won them in the comp (must be doing something right) Question i have is ... Gamebore Velocity Vs Lyalvel Power Gold / Reds I'm using Muller U2 chokes in the 828u and the standard extend chokes in the A400 Whats the best Carts for around £220 per 1000? Would love to get the Benelli adjusted to me if anyone has ideas of a good place to go locally? Thanks for reading

Hi all, Sadly due to a bleed on the brain, I can't shoot for the foreseeable. I have all my cartridges for this season up for grabs. Collection is from just outside Oakham in Rutland (LE15). SGC holders only please. Discount for multiple purchases! All 12 gauge. Game Slab 1: £60 (RRP approx £88) 250x Hull High Pheasant Extreme 32g 5 Fibre Slab 2: £55 (RRP approx £91) 225 x Gamebore Black Gold Dark Storm 32g 5 Fibre, 25 x Hull High Pheasant 30g 5 Fibre (250 Cartridges altogether) Slab 3: £45 Approx 125 x Gamebore Black Gold 30g 5 Fibre, 75 x Holland & Holland Royal Game 30g 6 Fibre, 50 x Express Ultimate Power 32g 5 Fibre (250 Cartridges altogether) Slab 4: £45 125 x Hull Imperial Game 28g 6 Fibre, 75 x Hull High Pheasant 30g 5 Fibre, 25 x Hull High Pheasant 30g 6 Fibre, 25 x Purdey 28g 6 Fibre (250 Cartridges altogether) Slab 5: £35 Approx 200 mixed game cartridges from Hull, Gamebore etc. Fibre Slab 6: £75 Approx 250 Paper cased/collectors game cartridges from Purdey, Holland & Holland, Churchill’s etc. Fibre Slab 7: £100 (Bargain! Tungsten Matrix normally £600 per 250!) NON-TOXIC Approx 75 x Kent Tungsten Matrix 36g 5, 25 x Eley Bismuth 32g 6, 75 x Hull Steel 32g 4 Clay Cartridges Slab 8: £35 250 x Hull Pro Fibre 24g 7.5 Fibre Slab 9: £30 Approx 175 x Express Super Competition 28g 7.5 Fibre, 75 x Hull Superfast 27g 7.5 Plastic (250 Cartridges altogether) Slab 10: £45 Approx 550 mixed clay cartridges from Hull, Gamebore, Express etc. Plastic and Fibre.

Hi All I have for sale the following items Eley 12b Grand Prix Bismuth shot Fibre wad Cartridges x 10 boxes of 25 (whole slab) - they are 65mm Number 5 shot/ 30 gram Eley 20b Grand Prix Bismuth shot Fibre wad Cartridges x 10 boxes of 25 (whole slab) - they are 65mm Number 5 shot/ 23 gram. I am looking to sell the whole slab at £200 each. Collection only due to the weight, might manage local delivery around Aberdeenshire. SGC holders only, licence will need to be seen. Cash on collection. Thanks Jamie

almost any 12g shells wanted , old , odd or just not wanted any more most anything can be used but 24gram and over and shot no larger than 6 , will travel for large amounts . Mike Kent

wanted your old 12 bore ammo not fussy use most anything for practical shotgun practice 6 , 7 or 8 shot 28g upwards anywhere in kent or for larger amounts may travel to essex or sussex let me know what you have and price dont care how old 1

Hi. Looking for gamebore clear pigeon carts 30g or 32g

Hi I'm in a bit of a pickle I'm after some spent eley classic game 20g paper cartridges to make buttonholes for my wedding in a month. I appreciate its an odd request but if anyone has any could they let me know by pm or just reply to the post.

I am looking for some pinfire cases in 16 bore that will fit english guns. I have two in this gauge and the continental cases do not fit as the pin is too far back. The breech will not close. I could try and redrill them but that is a fag with no guarantee it will work. At one time krank did brass cases but no longer due to cost and low demand. Having some made would be extortionately expensive. Anyone got any suggestions? Thanks

Got 250 carts for sale £50 I'm Southampton based private sale Contact me on 07717575533

Just joined forum into wildfowling salmon fishing and gun dog training . I’m from Scotland and looking for any 12 or 10 bore American shells in lead ......many thanks

Anybody got any American lead 12 or 10 bore magnum cartridges for sale

Hi, I have just started collecting old shot gun cartridges and I am looking for a paper cased Eley four bore cartridge . i wondered If anyone had one that I could buy,not worried if it's empty or live. many thanks Andy

I have 243 x 2 1/2" 14gm 6 shot plastic wads cartridges for sale. £40 & buyer collects (Essex) on production of valid SGC.

I have 15 x 5-round boxes of Remington Express Buckshot, 3 1/2" magnum 18 (9mm) shot. Designed for stopping deer and black bear! £75 ono, buyer collects (local delivery possible) Essex on production of valid SGC.

Hi all, So I am positive this topic will have been done to death on here and every shooting website available but I am interested to hear your thoughts... What would be your recommended load for pigeon shooting? from what i can see, the general consensus is between 30-32g 6's? I have also seen a page on Sporting Shooter saying 27g 7.5s are suitable? If so it would be great to transfer cartridges from the clay ground to the field without having to buy different cartridges. Any recommendations or advice on the best all round cartridge for pigeon shooting would be great...

I have 165 20g lyalvale express cartridges mostly 70mm plastic wad 24g no8 HV comp with a few 65mm 24g 7 1/2 fibre hv comp mixed in will swap for similar qty of 12g carts almost anything but no buck, slug or number 3 or 4 shot . near Lenham

I have the following 20 Gauge cartridges for sale: 125 x Eley VIP Fibre 28 gr No. 6 400 x Eley CT Plastic 21gr No 7.5 £100 the lot. Collection only from Burton on Trent Area.

Afternoon all, Where does everyone get their Shotgun Cartridges from and at what price? I haven't tended to be too fussy normally buying a slab or two at a time either from the local gun shop or clay ground... Usually around £55-60 per slab (12 gauge). Does anyone know of anywhere you can get cheaper cartridges even if they are not the big names (Gamebore, Eley, Hull etc) thanks,