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Axe

Can using rimfire or FAC PCP ruin 12ft/lb shooting

Can using rimfire or FAC PCP ruin 12ft/lb shooting on the same land permission.  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. Can using rimfire or FAC PCP ruin 12ft/lb shooting on the same land permission.

    • Yes
      9
    • No
      16
    • Sometimes
      5


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It really does make you wonder just what this 'little' round could stop. I certainly get the impression now, that size is not so inportant (not sure the wife would agree :) ) but more over the amount of charge set behind the projectile. Truly impressive.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

I think the most armed forces have gone to .223 as their infantry personal weapon. If not that exact round, one very like it. Of course, when used on a rabbit, it's not fit for eating afterwards, as you point out, and hardly a 'quiet' option.

 

I was thinking last night on my new piece of shooting land that I could do with a bit more range, errr - like an extra 100 metres. The ******* were sitting out in the middle of fields and they were damned hard to get near. Still got ten though.

 

???

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The military use the 5.56 Nato round, which is basically a .223 Rem with a heavy bullet in a slower than recommended twist.

The result of this is a very unstable round that is just on the verge of instability. This gives the round some very unusual qualities, inasmuch as, as soon as it hits, it tumbles violently causing nasty injuries more than actually killing the opposition.

The reason is politically motivated as usual, because the powers that be thought it would be better not to kill enemy soldiers, but to disable as many as possible. This ties up more of their resources… doctors, field staff, equipment, medication etc, and means that they have a lot more to worry about than just burying their dead.

And they call us nasty things for shooting vermin ???

G.M.

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Thanks for the clarification...

 

I'd have said that was good military tactics rather than political. Disable your enemy by diverting him into caring for his wounded...

 

Cheers.

 

 

Going back to Axe's point about the power of the .223, it's really all about velocity. The thing is probably travelling at 2600 to 2900 fps depending on the load, and since the kinetic energy is half the mass times the SQUARE of the speed, it doesn't take a LOT more speed to take the energy right up.

 

.22lr, 40 grains at 1090fps or there abouts, .223, fifty two grains at say 2800 fps - no contest in the hard hitter stakes.

 

Now compare that lot with my 16 grain 570 fps TX200. ???

 

Of course we could also re-hash the .177 versus .22 for hunting debate.

 

My answer would be .17 ANYDAY, as long as its a .17HMR doing 2550fps ...

 

:)

Edited by Evilv

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Of course we could also re-hash the .177 versus .22 for hunting debate.

Don't you dare :) :< :shoot::shoot:???

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According to the remmington ballistics program a .223 55grn bullet at 1000yds is travelling at 906 fps and still carries a punch of 100ft lbs of energy.

Need to SERIOUSLY know what your doing before you take one of these out :)

 

 

Cheers Ive ???

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According to the remmington ballistics program a .223 55grn bullet at 1000yds is travelling at 906 fps and still carries a punch of 100ft lbs of energy.

Need to SERIOUSLY know what your doing before you take one of these out :)

 

 

Cheers Ive ???

Hence the police requirement to check out land if you're intending to use such a firearm on it.

 

I get many many more shots now with my feeble 11 ft pound airgun than I ever dared take with my .22WMR. Couldn't fire it except with a bank or a good dry stone wall as a background. I lost count of the number of shots I had to pass up for fear of what might happen six hundred yards down range after a skip off a stone or piece of turf. .22 LR is notorious for being not powerful enough to destroy its bullets after hitting the ground, but plenty powerful enough to spin off in uncontroled ricochets for hundreds of yards. I doubt the .223 would do that mind. The bullet would probably smash to fragments.

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It's the least used gun in my portfolio.Including zeroing 1-200rds per year.As for the police having experience to vet land ,well thats questionable as in all cases it depends on the individual officers knowledge . :shoot: (they are not always the right people in my opinion :shoot: )

My permission is pretty flat ,there are only several places for safe shots,but as for a ballistic tipped round fragmenting on impact ,,,,,,,,,,,well it went straight thru my 5mm thick Stainless Steel backstop at 125yds leaving a hole liked it had been drilled,the old man still shakes his head now in dis belief ??? Flesh and bone absorb energy a different way.

 

 

This topic seems to have gone off at a tangent but advice to anyone that wishes to progress from a 12 ft lb to a potential 1280 ft lbs and beyond you can't beat hands on experience in the field from a fellow EXPERIENCED shooter :)

 

 

 

Cheers Ive

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This topic seems to have gone off at a tangent but advice to anyone that wishes to progress from a 12 ft lb to a potential 1280 ft lbs and beyond you can't beat hands on experience in the field from a fellow EXPERIENCED shooter :)

The topic has truly gone off on one but in my opinion, for the better. There is alot of valuable opinions and advice comtained in this thread. Something that a great deal of people can use to get a better understanding and appreciation of rifles and cailbre's.

 

Your definitely right though, learning from an experienced hand is the way forward. ???

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

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well here's my two pennorth for what its worth. I started out many years ago with a weirauch hw35, then got an HW77 as well as shottys I then got an AA S410 and then a Rapid. All fine guns, but, here is my opinion, the drawback with pcp's is the re-filling, if your land is a fair way from home, and you shoot a lot, you have to either take your diving bottle with you in the car or call the night off when your air runs low. Ok with the rapid you can carry spare buddy bottles, but thee are fairly bulky, especially if you have several dead bunnys to cart too. Now I have my FAC, which is open so no problem with land vetting etc, I just carry spare boxes of rounds in my pocket. There are many different sorts of round available in 22rf, right down to 12ft lbs and up to stinger and many in between, so there should be something for every occasion there. Fieldcraft is still important at rf ranges, we're not talking miles away here, and the margin for error with shot placement is much greater at longer distances. Oh and my rimmy is the CZ 452 American with the trigger job, 20 quid supplied and fitted at South Yorkshire shooting supplies.

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Fieldcraft is still important at rf ranges, we're not talking miles away here, and the margin for error with shot placement is much greater at longer distances.

OH yes!!!! dont forget that an air gun grouping 1.5 inches at 35 yards would be like a RF grouping around 10 inches at 200 yards.

 

Now im not too sure what the clubs are like round your way for FAC but down here in east kent there are 2 or 3 air rifle clubs compared to 30 FAC clubs!!!! find out where your local club is and try to become a member there as with all shooting the more practise you can get in the better your shooting will be. As well as being able to gain experiance from those who have been shooting a good many years saving you the time in finding ouit all the pit falls for yourself.

 

If you do decide to join a club you may find that you have to do a probation period first, if you join before getting your FAC, if you join after getting it you may find you can join straight away, after a very short probation period.

 

ROB ???

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Went out last night to our 80 acre site. There were 3 of us out, 2 12lber's and a rimmy.

 

Having divided up the land to about equal measures of "usable" areas we set off. BUT having the rimmy on one half meant that in order to have a safety zone around the back stop area it cut down the air rifle side to about one hedge line!

Not a problem parse but it is another drawback in mixing the two.

 

PLUS because of backdrops the rimmy was only usable in about half of the "rabbit hot spots". Whilst it still took a number out (5+ 2 runners) by the time I left it still highlighted it's weakness in the flexability stakes.

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well here's my two pennorth for what its worth. I started out many years ago with a weirauch hw35, then got an HW77 as well as shottys I then got an AA S410 and then a Rapid. All fine guns, but, here is my opinion, the drawback with pcp's is the re-filling, if your land is a fair way from home, and you shoot a lot, you have to either take your diving bottle with you in the car or call the night off when your air runs low. Ok with the rapid you can carry spare buddy bottles, but thee are fairly bulky, especially if you have several dead bunnys to cart too. .

With my pcp's I can use a hand pump which I keep in the car, I get 50 spot on shots with the Daystate and a few more with the Axsor, don't want to be carting more than 50 rabbits about at a time do you ? It's using the pump that keeps my body so finely tuned :rolleyes::oops:

 

 

"OH yes!!!! dont forget that an air gun grouping 1.5 inches at 35 yards would be like a RF grouping around 10 inches at 200 yards".

 

Shouldn't you be putting all the pellets through the same hole at 35 yards with your air rifle :lol: 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards maybe.

 

You won't shoot good groups with any gun if you can't shoot so go out and do what "old **** like Rooster" do and get some good practice in before you try to kill things. Learn to breathe right and control your heart rate, I've had to as I'm so ******* creaky now that I can't get near the rabbits anymore :lol::lol:

 

Mmmmm rabbit curry tonight.

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PLUS because of backdrops the rimmy was only usable in about half of the "rabbit hot spots". Whilst it still took a number out (5+ 2 runners) by the time I left it still highlighted it's weakness in the flexability stakes.

Snakebite

You aren't experienced enough to comment on the flexibility and weaknesses on rimfires .As for backdrops you use FIELDCRAFT to get into a shooting posistion and if it requires you elevate your firing point so you are aiming down and then if you can't create a safe backstop you don't take the shot .This same theory applies to ANY gun out in the field condtions. Whereas farmyards and out buildings are concerned i freely admit 12ft lber is the required tool to do the job.

I went out last night on a golf course with my AAS410k(35 ft lbs) and sht 18 rabbits (would 'ave been few more but i could'nt carry anymore )As there was no wind some of these kills were taken at distances of 75+ good paces and this i would consider around the limits MY rimfire .............so something for you to consider. :D

 

 

 

Old rooster according to Mike(aka hawkeye) you could teach us young un's something about field craft so i'd better start taking some cod liver oil tablets and oil them joints :rolleyes::oops::lol::lol:

 

 

Ceers Ive :lol:

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Don't suppose I could teach anyone much about anything mate, I just plod along in the same old tinpot way, well apart from buying the absoferkinlutely awesome state of the art electronic Daystate MK3 I suppose.

 

Can't wait to properly explore it's potential and I just lurrrrrv all that pumping, I'll have pecs like Arnie soon. :lol::lol:

 

I tend to be using more garden craft than field craft and I certainly wouldn't want to be using a rimmy in them thar flower beds !!!. Total overkill for what I'm doing.

 

Get yourself a pump mate, carrying 35 rabbits will seem like a walk in the park then, specially if you are using 35ftlbs :oops::rolleyes:

 

Think I'll be leaving you guys to the rimming for now, not appropriate for an old codger like me :lol:

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You aren't experienced enough to comment on the flexibility and weaknesses on rimfires .As for backdrops you use FIELDCRAFT to get into a shooting posistion and if it requires you elevate your firing point so you are aiming down

I certainly don't pretend to know ALL the ins and outs of them at all.

However I do have enough common sense to know not to be in the path (or possible path in the event of a richochet ) of any gun!

It was discussed between us before splitting up where I would be, thus preventing any accidents.

 

To further describe what I meant by "flexability" was the fact that I can lay up facing a road 200yds away. When a shot presents itself I can take it. Even if it goes wide the angle of shot would mean it would never reach the road, with a rimfire it would not be a shot you could take.

The 80 acres last night is flanked by 2 roads,along the length of the area. Houses are located along these roads at sparodic intervals. NO SHOT is an issue with an air rifle due to backstops and location of the rabbits. With the rim fire it was all about position and only shooting in certain directions. That is what I mean about flexability.

 

At no point was I shooting with the rim fire. All the decisions were made by a competent person who is experienced with the capabilities of the rifle.

It was his actions and decisions, all good and all based on saftey that hi lighted the "weaknesses" of the rifle ON THAT PARTICULAR PERMISSION.

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Get a sneaking suspicion that you've come full circle and answered your own question old chap. It's a case of horses for courses in a way, there is an element of personal preference involved and merits on each side.

 

I still reckon a well used air rifle will do plenty of damage to the rabbit population and has lots of flexibility. It's a personal view based on my own experiences but I have to admit I've never had a rimfire, that's because I've never felt I needed one and the attending aggravation of needing some dimwitted plod to tell me whether land I have permission to shoot on is suitable for a rifle. I doubt if 10% of plod could even tell a rifle from an air rifle anyway.

 

Best advice is to get out there and enjoy yourselves while taking due care for the safety of yourselves and others in the vicinity.

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It was his actions and decisions, all good and all based on saftey that hi lighted the "weaknesses" of the rifle ON THAT PARTICULAR PERMISSION.

Sorry Snakebite but i do have to disagree. What you havent mentioned is that where the Rimfire can not take certain shots at certain angles, It can indeed take these shots using the field craft that you mention, to get into position.

Also, and this is why I disagree with the word 'weakness' if I recall the rimfire was the only rifle to take any rabbits at all last night. (you should have stayed after dark to see the NV in action....WOW!!!) :rolleyes:

 

I have seen then rimfire in action, not just with standard rounds but with the low power and higher powered rounds available. These rounds give the rimfire and extremely wide range of varied power shots, a round for each scenario/occasion so to speak, so I would say this is a very versatile tool indeed.

 

Two differing opinions, two people, same event, im not trying to prolong this debate, but I do feel that each individual should try this for themselves, rather than listen to possible bias opinion's of a forum.

 

As for me, well you know i'll be applying for the rimfire.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

Edited by Axe

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An experienced shooter operating with a rimfire should not have to be dealing with things like riccochet ,but in the early days of using this type of gun it is an learning curve we all go through and i think maybe your experienced hand is forewarning you to be extra careful should you decide to go down this road .Had you not been there maybe there are some shots he would had took safely but thought otherwise just to set a good example.(the PARTICULAR PERMISSION BEING 80 ACRES ,a large area with plenty of manouevarability)

 

 

 

The picture i'm getting from reading previous threads is that you mainly shoot in light conditions and prefer to use the ambush technique or to ly in wait as some say and you've only been at it for about a year).Don't know if i'm right but that's the impression i get ,and it was my intro to this sport.BuTTTTTTTT should you ever decide to start walking around with a lamp?:rolleyes:?:oops:?:lol:

 

 

And for the last time in my opinion a rimfire using an element of field craft will provide a far superior form of rabbit control as rabbits become skittish etc.

PS I don,t know anyone with longnets ,ferrets whippets lurchers ,greyhounds or hawks .

 

Cheers Ive

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Get a sneaking suspicion that you've come full circle and answered your own question old chap. It's a case of horses for courses in a way, there is an element of personal preference involved and merits on each side.

 

I still reckon a well used air rifle will do plenty of damage to the rabbit population and has lots of flexibility. It's a personal view based on my own experiences but I have to admit I've never had a rimfire, that's because I've never felt I needed one and the attending aggravation of needing some dimwitted plod to tell me whether land I have permission to shoot on is suitable for a rifle. I doubt if 10% of plod could even tell a rifle from an air rifle anyway.

 

Best advice is to get out there and enjoy yourselves while taking due care for the safety of yourselves and others in the vicinity.

Old rooster

How much land have you got?:rolleyes: because if it's alot then you probably would'nt need a rimmy as the rabbits are not becomming lamp shy etc!It was only when i reguarly shot the same piece of land that i had to increase my power as i mainly shoot under lamping conditions and they became extremely streetwise .I confess i hav'nt now got the patience to sit by a burrow all day.

 

 

Cheers Ive

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The picture i'm getting from reading previous threads is that you mainly shoot in light conditions and prefer to use the ambush technique or to ly in wait as some say and you've only been at it for about a year).Don't know if i'm right but that's the impression i get ,and it was my intro to this sport.BuTTTTTTTT should you ever decide to start walking around with a lamp?:rolleyes:?:oops:?:lol:

That is correct.

Although I did do a fair bit of lamping at the begining of the year. Due to inexperience it was a bit of blundering around in the dark at times. As the light improved the lamping stopped but this week I have started bringing the lamp out again.

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