Barrel Wear .22LR

[Axe]

After speaking with several people from the forum and venturing out with experienced hands, I am now considering my options for FAC. Thanks to all that have offered advice and opinions on the various choices to be made, so far.

 

Something that has cropped up is the usable life span of a .22LR. I have been advised that most .22LR rifles suffer from barrel wear between 5-6000 rounds and that I should be very careful when making a second hand purchase. Particularly in finding out how many rounds have been put through it.

 

To my untrained eye, i'm pretty sure I wouldnt be able to judge the wear of a barrel. So I am a little concerned that I should spend a little more money and buy new. I realise that some makes of rifle may differ to others, so to narrow this down, i'm looking to purchase an Anschutz.

 

Can anyone expand on this, any help and advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Kind regards,

 

Axe.

[Frank]

As far as i know and having owned a .22lr of some sort for over 16 years, they never wear down and seem to last for ever .

A mates granfather, has had his Brno .22lr for over 20 years and must of fired thousands and thousands of rounds threw it and it still shoots clover shaped groups at 50 yds . I can tell you now he has shot millions of bunnys, the rifle was in Australia with him for 7 of those years and bunnys in OZ are in plague proportions .

They dont need a lot of cleaning either, like the centerfires, unless you get them wet of course. B)

Go for a CZ, much cheaper and in my opinion, just as good .

Good Luck with what ever you get mate and enjoy it while it lasts B)

[leon]

Never found a rimfire that is suffering from barrel wear.

[palombier]

I agree with Leon and Frank. The barrels do not wear down and the CZ has a great reputation.

 

P

[tommy trucker]

i'm looking to purchase an Anschutz.

you've got to much money mate B)

buy a cz and spend the money that you save on a decent scope B)

[Axe]

i'm looking to purchase an Anschutz.

you've got to much money mate B)

buy a cz and spend the money that you save on a decent scope B)

I appreciate that the CZ and other alternatives will be cheaper but the 1417 carbine thumbhole just feels right for me. Its balanced and fits my shoulder like it was made for me. So far I havent spoken to anyone that will put an Anshutz down, rather the opposite. I am a firm believer of getting the best I can afford, am I miss guided?

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[hawkeye]

i'm looking to purchase an Anschutz. B)   

you've got to much money mate  

buy a cz and spend the money that you save on a decent scope

I appreciate that the CZ and other alternatives will be cheaper but the 1417 carbine thumbhole just feels right for me. Its balanced and fits my shoulder like it was made for me. So far I havent spoken to anyone that will put an Anshutz down, rather the opposite. I am a firm believer of getting the best I can afford, am I miss guided?

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

AXE

I had a CZ it only lasted a 4 weeks nothing wrong with the gun just me i did not like the trigger.

Got rid and got myself an ANSHUTZ best move i ever did thumbhole stock the lot as you said it just felt right when you picked it up and to me that is half the battle.

I was so impressed with it when i went for a .17hmr i got that in ANSHUTZ as well. B)

[sussex lad]

AXE,

 

TOLD YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! B)

 

SEE YA 2NITE B)

 

CHEERS,

 

 

BRIAN......

[deadeye ive]

Something that has cropped up is the usable life span of a .22LR. I have been advised that most .22LR rifles suffer from barrel wear between 5-6000 rounds and that I should be very careful when making a second hand purchase. Particularly in finding out how many rounds have been put through it.

Each individual gun as to be judged on its own MERITS,materials used and build quality for example ,there is no limits on rounds fired or age and THEN! there is the operator .My OWN RUGER 10/22 as to date had 5000 rds down it and the rifling flutes are'nt as pronounce as the day i bought it they are worn and its probably because in the early days on the range i continuously put rd after rd of high velocity down and generated extreme temperatures on the barrel.This was explained to me by a friend who just so happens to be a gunsmith ,the term he used was i just kept it in the red line for too long(and NO he his not trying to sell me another gun)

 

IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THE HISTORY OF ANY GUN BEFORE BUYING SECOND HAND UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR MALCOLM

 

 

 

 

PS Brian good luck with the sako quad

 

 

Ivan

[Frank]

Well said Tommy .

[dunganick]

buy a cz 452 varmint get the trigger upgrade have 95% of an anshutz and about 50% more cash in your pocket for a good bit of optics.

 

also in my experiance some of the finer german made barrels are only run in after a few thousand shots. if it looks like its had a hard life dont buy it.

 

brand new 452 will shoot as well as a anshutz and is cheap. but the standard trigger without modification (£12.50) is pretty useless

[bobt]

I have a cz, have had 1000s through it. it seems to bed in unlike a mates anshutz which kept missfeeding. he took it back got another, same again, possible bullet choice?

 

he has a cz now. and a nice shotgun with the change.

[jonno 357]

AXE

 

Go for what you feel is best for yourself. Don't be like the rest of the lemmings and choose the CZ.

 

I have had 5 CZ and found them to be ok but nothing special. If you can afford it, buy the best.

 

Nick.

Please tell me more about the experience you have with german barrels that take a few thousands to run them in ?

 

I'm thinking about buying a german bench rest rifle. **** me I don't want to shot 3 thousand rounds before its run in

 

Jonno

Edited September 1, 2005 by jonno 357

[dunganick]

rimfires mate, lots of them never settle down untill youve put a good few hours on the range, germans ive noticed to be the worst at this, which dosent make sense as they make very good barrels and you would think the quality of the barrel would be very good. however this is what ive seen, i speek experiance on this one not books as many seem to think i normally do.

 

of course this can be speeded up by the clean, foul, clean, foul routine. what b/r rinfle you thinking of getting, a r/fire or c/fire, you must mean r/fire as obviously a c/fire is doing a few fps more. but still take a few hundred shots to settle in.

 

got to disagee with the thing on cz, although the quality is not as good as it once was they are still fine guns once the modified trigger is fitted, its stonned and the barrel is correctly free floated. my rimfire will make 1cm groups at 75 yards without a rear rest, and its by no means a high price set up. at 50 yards all shots go through one mashed hole. its not bad for £230 of rifle. and the trigger is very nearly up to anshutz quality, certainly better than some earlier anshutz

[deadeye ive]

Just out of curiosity

How many of the people who replied ACTUALLY inspected the condition of the barrel Before using the gun??:lol:?

If the rifling on rimfire barrels DOES NOT wear down can someone at least take the time to explain to AXE why not?

I've been advised that my own rimfire has another 1000 rds left in it. It is no longer acurate enough for target competition but is still good enough for pest control and i now only put on average 250 rds per year, 1 shot 1 kill (Target range ,been there done that) so i'll have the gun for a FEW more years.

 

 

GENUINE,HONEST AND SPEAKING FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE REPLIES PLEASE

 

 

Not my mate reckons or someone down the club or my dad or i read it in a book or i saw it on the net .blah,blah,blah

 

 

Ivan

 

 

Nick from a previous thread i understand you use eley ,you mentioned on this thread 1CM groups at 75yds .Well your talking absolute BO**UCKS .I use eley also and i can tell your that ANY gun locked down in a Black & Decker workmate will not achieve this (50yds maybe )When will you ever learn or are you just going to keep sticking your fingers in the fire.Any mass produced ammo is not consistant even if you stick to the same batch numbers or have you worked out how to homeload rimfire ammo????The guns are however up to it !

[dunganick]

mate i dont talk b***ocks i will take pics and get witness sigs if your that convinced its not true, the reason that people try different rounds of ammo through their gun is to find the one which works best, the one which the twsit rate, speed, combine to give a constantly repeatable resonance in the barrel and spit the shots out in the same place, as im sure your aware, so why is this any different to what us handloaders do, we work on powder charge and bullet weight and profile to find what speed produces a consistant resomance in the barrel and dosent ****** it up the secound it leaves the barrel.

 

if someone can put shot on shot at 50 it is completely possible to get the shots as tight as 1cm at 75yrds, graunted out of every 50 shots you get the ones with a different case capacity or low/high powder charge, but these are obvious deviations from the group. i havent got into check weighing the rounds yet, but will do it to see if it makes any difference, i may well even get around to posting my results.

 

more over, match grade ammo does not always give you good results, if you have a dig around on http://www.accuratereloading.com you should find a large review on rimfire ammo using a combination of rifles, which round if i recal correctly that in some cases manufacteurs base line ammo out performed their match grade. maybe i got lucky, maybe my rimfire suits eley standards v well, and no one else can hit a barn door if they were standing inside, but i dont talk b***ocks, i have shot these groups with it, and at the next opertunity will shoot some and send you pics of them. i think im at bisley mid next month.

 

but i do agree the guns are not the weak factor in rimfires.

 

as for wearing in a barrel, the theory goes (and its mainly theory as what goes on inside barrels is not very well understood as its difficult to look in there whilst its all going on) but anyway the theory goes that when you take a shot, the bullet travels down the barrel and hits lumps (inperfections) in the barrel and these remove lead from the bullet, now if you then clean the gun straight away, removing the lead then shoot again the lump is hit by the lead again, once this is repeated many times the lump beguins to wear down and the surface of the rifleing and barrel are smooth which eledgerdly aids with accuracy (certainly was the case with my dads 243 after doing about 50 shots of this) however with a rimfire the reason they get better with a good run in (assuming you never clean it here, which some see as the best way to run a rimfire, others dont.....new topic in the making.....or was it an old one ) is that after each shot you have a build up of lead on this lump which hinders in the smoothing of this lump, as the bullet will just (and here comes theory which i admit freely i heard on accuratereloading.com forums, so its not 1st hand) the bullet will just remove the old lead and then have a lump scratched out of itsself depositing more lead again. this action does wear down the lump but takes much much longer as the lead left by the last bullet is protecting the lump to a degree.

 

now that long winded explanation is over i hope that made sense, i expect i will now recieve a load of 'finger burning' as i stick my fingers in the fire. but there you go it makes the place intresting

[deadeye ive]

so why is this any different to what us handloaders do, we work on powder charge and bullet weight and profile to find what speed produces a consistant resomance in the barrel and dosent ****** it up the secound it leaves the barrel.

If you yourself could GUARENTEE these factors with rimfire ammo then i'd believe your 1cm group at 75yds

For the record at 75yds using a bypod i achieved 35 mm groups,that dos'nt mean to say that people are'nt better shots than myself it's just the ammo i bring into question?

 

 

Ivan

[jonno 357]

Nick

 

You still haven't told me what finer german barrels take thousands of rounds to run the barrel in ?

 

I'm buying a bench rest single shot rifle. I don't want to buy the wrong barrel. As you say from your experience about thousands of rounds to run in a finer german barrel. At the rate I will use it I will be ready for my pension before its run in

 

You also say Nick the quality of the CZ is now not as good as it once was? Could you tell us more about this quality issue Nick and what you have experienced over the years the decline of CZ quality

 

Jonno

[Axe]

Thanks to everyone that has replied. Wow what a marathon! It certainly has cleared the matter up for me. Ive obviously caught the wrong end of the stick somehow.

 

I must ask though, all this talk of runnning in barrels etc. Since the imperfections are being slowly worn away by round after round, then doesnt this mean that the barrel will also be affected by the same, all be it on a smaller scale? ....and... how does one go about looking for barrel wear, I am assuming it would not be that obvious.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[deadeye ive]

Axe

I'm only speaking from facts concerning my OWN particular gun(£300 price bracket)

When it was new

Removed the barrell,looked down it from the breech end ,pointed it up at a light source to reveal a pronounced spiral line very clear and visible.When last cleaned with a phosper bronze brush and some butches bore shine what rifling was there had all but disappeared..The fact it still shoots to a certain degree of accuracy is beyond me and my conclusion is that previous replies were basing their comments on the fact that because their own guns were still accurate(we all have different perceptions on what accurracy is) then there was no barrel wear.

 

Nick ,At least you have made an attempt to clarify why rimfires have a long shelf life unlike some that are quick to respond with a short comment stating rimfires DON'T suffer from wear.

 

 

So assuming there is no barrel wear and rimfires NEVER wear out as the gun as been USED in the correct manner.What about mis-use ,where barrel temperatures are so great that further use RESULTS in the irreversal damage to the rifle flutes.

 

YES OR NO??:lol:

 

 

It's probably better to know the history of the operator more than the gun when buying second hand

 

 

Ivan

[dunganick]

deadeye, my groups are shot from a bench using front and rear rests, i have a 3 shot group which was shot without a rear rest @ 75 yards, but it is 3 shots and i have no proof it was at 75 yards, not to mention its surrounded by numerous other shots as i was zero'ing on the target at the same time.

 

jonno, im not sure why the german barrels take ages to wear in, but it just seems like they do, my cz has taken only a thousand or so rounds to really start shooting tight groups, however my dad has a weirauch which shot half inch groups for ages, every ammo type was tried with no real improvement over eley, but persistance paid off, i would put 50 shots through it everytime i went down to bisley (about 15x a year) and after a year of slightly more of doing this it is shooting groups which are far better, this is only with a 6x42 scope @50 yards, so the equipment isnt even a bench rest rig, unlike what my cz seems to be turning into

 

my niggle on the quality is bassed on centerfires that ive used from about 25yrs ago, the guns were built with all metal, no plastic, but the fit and finish and trigger quality was far better (on the models ive tried, by no means have a tried all of them) have to say the old semi auto rimfire they made was a disapointment. the new guns are fine for the money you pay, but i dont like the quality of the blueing, or the finsh on most of the other metal, it has a plastic magazine (but then what guns dont these days) and things like the right hand side fit of the stock down the barrel, which on most models is a near touch fit, unlike the 1mm free on the otherside, easily fixed, but an exmple of sloppy production.

 

i will get around to doing some check weighing and might well post the results up, so all can see if it makes any difference, might also get a case thickness measure, but i think that is a little too sad, so might not.

 

i would also agree with deadeyes last comment, its best to know the opperater, but then for the price of a cz why not just buy new and know that your getting something that will shoot almost as well as a anshutz, and only takes £12.50 to get the trigger near anshutz quality.

[leon]

Deadeye ive,

If the best you are getting at 75yards is 35mm groups ever thought of giving up shooting, your obviously no good at it. Oh and rimfire barrels dont wear!!!

[jonno 357]

Deadeye ive,

If the best you are getting at 75yards is 35mm groups ever thought of giving up shooting, your obviously no good at it. Oh and rimfire barrels dont wear!!!

I'm afraid they do Leon.

 

Jonno

Edited September 1, 2005 by jonno 357

[poppythedog]

Rimfire barrels certainly do wear........eventually, my shooting pal has a pump action 22lr that started life as a training gun for military use, it still has the W/D logo on it. We estimate it to be from the 1930s but have never really researched it. Needless to say it has had LOTS of rounds through it even before he got it. It is completely shot out, regardless of ammmo brand, scope, rest etc it shoots very erratically sometimes drifiting by up to 12" @50 yds.

So in answer to the original question, the chances of buying a badly worn s/h 22lr are slim if you stick to something reasonably modern.

[Ishapoor]

Right, I have to say that I would support those who say that .22's are unlikely ever to be 'shot out.'

 

The reason for this is relatively simple: centrefires shoot copper jacketed bullets, copper HARD. LR rimfires shoot lead-only bullets, lead VERY SOFT.

 

I'm sure it's not impossible to erode down LR rifling, but I believe that it'd take MANY rounds to do so. I don't believe that 5000 shots would make an appreciable difference, for example.

 

Older .22's with ******** rifling are far more likely to in some way have suffered from lack of cleaning after having fired ammunition with corrosive primers.