Why is it so tough to breed from my great dog?

[JONO]

Hi,

 

I own a cracking 7 year old springer called Ollie - who came from a litter raised by the underkeeper at Badminton Estate

 

Good hunter, good wildfowler, picking up, rough shooter etc etc

 

 

But, and this is the crunch for most, he didn't come with papers.

 

He's a cracking pet, soft-natured and as gentle as it is to be around (small) kids... zero health problems to date.

 

 

The KC took a pasting last year over their breeding practices and recommendations and I'm irritated that a) the breed standard for ESS are so removed from the dogs doing that role in the field -ie he's from working stock.

 

But thats an aside and what really gets my goat and what this post is about is b ) Why should he have to have flipping papers in order to pass on some excellent genes?!

 

Anyhoo - as his boss I really want to do right by him and put him over a similar bitch for the pick of the litter

 

If there is anyone out there (ideally within a trip of Bristol) with similar problems or an unregistered good-working bitch then get in touch.

 

The pups would be marvellous

 

Jon

Edited January 6, 2010 by JONO

[sako751sg]

Superb looking dug fella,but for breeding the papers make the difference,regardless of ability.Hopefully you will find him a bitch and keep his line going.

[hitfreshairagain]

sorry im somewhat confused,i am looking to buy a kc reg lab hopefully soon are you saying that if its kc reg it cant have come from working stock.

Lee

[Mungler]

Is it because he has terrible fashion sense? Perhaps a tweed jacket would do better with the KC brigade. Yes, cammo will never do, what what

 

Seriously though, it's all cock. I have a smashing dog but because she has a 3mm over bite the previous owner (a professional dog man) got rid - mind you, his loss, my gain.

 

I bought my dog based on my knowledge of her mum (an absolute star turn).

 

You should be able to get a litter lined up with people you know and who have seen the dog work.

 

Incidentally, if I had to call it, I reckon how a dog does is probably 40% down to genetics and not just training per se.

[groach1234]

sorry im somewhat confused,i am looking to buy a kc reg lab hopefully soon are you saying that if its kc reg it cant have come from working stock.

Lee

 

No he's not. Many working dogs are KC registered i think the kc registered is just what establishes the dog's pedigree and with out a KC registered dog as sire you can not have a KC reg dog as the pup so no pedigree and that may make them less salable.

 

George

[ziplex]

Great dog/pic's Jon, out of interest dare I ask where abouts this was? With regard to the dog I wish you luck in finding a suitable bitch, my Springer came from a good breeder in Bristol who may be interested/or at-least know of someone. If of interest drop me a PM and i'll forward his details....you can only ask!

[Bazooka Joe]

I was quoted £800 of a breeder for a Bitch which had Kennel Club Breeding Restrictions.

 

I will add that all our puppies carry Kennel Club breeding restrictions so I presume you are not interested in breeding from a bitch??

 

So, you can breed if you want to, but no papers, so a lower price obviously,

 

BJ.

[Ozzy Fudd]

i would never put breeding restrictions on a pup, and i definitely wouldnt take one that had restrictions, its a bit like selling on a shotgun and saying the owner must never use it to enter clay pigeon shooting competitions

 

having said that, no-one in their right mind would choose to breed dogs, unless they have 1) lots of spare cash, 2) lots of spare time, 3) lots of knowledge

 

one thing i would advise if to get a look at your dogs parents kc breed history if possible. one of the (few) good things about having dogs kc reg'd is that you can see their ancestry so you dont breed dogs that are too close relation wise (doesnt stop some people but personally i wouldnt do it)

 

good luck

[markbivvy]

for breeding the papers make the difference,regardless of ability

or more cash for **** workers.

[Blackbart]

I would think the only route is to find someone with an unregistered mut and breed it with them. Anyone with a kc reg springer would be daft to breed with a non kc reg dog unless they had buyers for all the pups in advance.

 

If the dog is a true springer why was it not registered ?That will be the first question potential buyers will wonder.

[JONO]

one thing i would advise if to get a look at your dogs parents kc breed history if possible. one of the (few) good things about having dogs kc reg'd is that you can see their ancestry so you dont breed dogs that are too close relation wise (doesnt stop some people but personally i wouldnt do it)

 

good luck

 

Sorry, I can only imagine you mis-read my post which was about doing exactly the thing you said I shouldn't do as I don't have the thing you refer to but wished me luck anyway for.

 

 

Ziplex - any help welcome unless you're talking Templar. Pix taken near to Severn Beach where my club has some foreshore.

Edited January 5, 2010 by JONO

[hookbones]

sadly ppl look to the quality of ur dog by those papers <i know someone that payed top dollar for a lab with papers n 4yrs later its still less than a 12" at the shoulder>...in your case the litter would cost money rather that make any as the value of a pup would be less than its food/jabs. its wholey wrong i grant u but thats how it is,, you would be taking a pup n the bitches owners would have the rest for a long time...even if they were to sell/be homed quick (n its a big IF) thats the mind set the other ppl would have. dog breeding is cash driven and the cash comes from the lines the dog has.. incidentally my brother n sister inlaw are heavily involved in springer rescue and they would be the very 1st to tell you how hard homing a paperless dog is ....

 

I have it the other way round ..i have a very rare n much sort after pointer that was brought in from germany with 36 german FT n show champs, i have ppl falling over each other to put their dogs to him offering the pick & £1000+ solely cos they see him and his pups as `cash cows` ,as a result i wont do it cos 1st n foremost to me is the well being of those pups. even a placed crufts breeder has shown interest in him but through intensive scrutiny by me iv turned up a true horror story involving them (as they are in the show world i knew there would be 1 if i looked hard enough)

 

im sorry but if like me you really want to work a 2nd generation along side the dog your proud of think of all the other pups and there pups and what will be there faits

 

i dont mean to be depressing but thats the dog world

 

steve

[peck]

""""I have it the other way round ..i i have ppl falling over each other to put their dogs to him offering the pick & £1000+ solely cos they see him and his pups as `cash cows` ,as a result i wont do it cos 1st n foremost to me is the well being of those pups. even a placed crufts breeder has shown interest in him but through intensive scrutiny by me iv turned up a true horror story involving them (as they are in the show world i knew there would be 1 if i looked hard enough)""""

 

 

hookbones, sorry to hear you have a very rare n much sort after pointer that was brought in from germany with 36 german FT n show champs with a problem. can you tell us what it is.?

[hookbones]

1 thing i dont quite get.. u say he dosnt conform to breed standards? this has no baring on his stock.. its physical as in hes too big/small/long/short/broad ect ect.. things that indicate he may not be 100% springer giving a reason as to why he has no papers.. these same things as well as inbreeding and hereditary defect are what u should expect when looking for similar bitch as there are no guarantees ...think of your boy hes a good looking fella n im sure your as proud of him as he is eager to please you

[ziplex]

Sorry, I can only imagine you mis-read my post which was about doing exactly the thing you said I shouldn't do as I don't have the thing you refer to but wished me luck anyway for.

 

 

Ziplex - any help welcome unless you're talking Templar. Pix taken near to Severn Beach where my club has some foreshore.

 

 

PM sent....

[hookbones]

""""I have it the other way round ..i i have ppl falling over each other to put their dogs to him offering the pick & £1000+ solely cos they see him and his pups as `cash cows` ,as a result i wont do it cos 1st n foremost to me is the well being of those pups. even a placed crufts breeder has shown interest in him but through intensive scrutiny by me iv turned up a true horror story involving them (as they are in the show world i knew there would be 1 if i looked hard enough)""""

 

 

hookbones, sorry to hear you have a very rare n much sort after pointer that was brought in from germany with 36 german FT n show champs with a problem. can you tell us what it is.?

 

 

sz fella u miss understand me...he has no probs atall other than class A pointer farts.. i wont let him cover cos ppl just want to make money of him without a thought for who buys the pups... selling them as almost a fashion accessory

[MC]

1 thing i dont quite get.. u say he dosnt conform to breed standards? this has no baring on his stock.. its physical as in hes too big/small/long/short/broad ect ect.. things that indicate he may not be 100% springer giving a reason as to why he has no papers.. these same things as well as inbreeding and hereditary defect are what u should expect when looking for similar bitch as there are no guarantees ...think of your boy hes a good looking fella n im sure your as proud of him as he is eager to please you

 

 

I would be amazed if you could find a Springer outside of Crufts that did conform to the breed standard. I have seen and been around literally 100's of springers in the last 5 years and they are all different. Some are small, some are large. Some are stocky, some are skinny. They nearly all have different shaped heads.

 

My own Springer has a very good pedigree with lots of FTch and FTW's in it along with some very famous dogs but I am damn sure he wouldn't get any kind of placing in the show world.

[hookbones]

the point i raise is who has said the dog in question dosnt `conform to standards `and on what grounds? to say because its from working stock seems odd as without papers even that becomes unsubstantiated to an outside observer

[JONO]

Sorry - let me split my two gripes...

 

Gripe one: KC breed standards for ESS are ridiculous and that's why they won't ever win crufts or similar.

 

I love the fact that they come in all shapes and sizes on the working side and the show dogs, representing the breed are thick as the proverbial.

 

Gripe two: I can't trial my dog because he isn't KC registered so, despite being a great worker and looker, we have a more difficult path to get him laid.

 

Hope this clears up any confusion.

 

Jon

[rickyspringer]

Jono its simple mate, find a bitch who isn't registered also and let your dog line her. "Simples"

 

It was your problem that you didn't buy a dog with kc papers, you put yourself on the backfoot instantly, struggle to breed,no known family history, aswell as not being able to trial. its not the KC fault its yourself to blame and the breeder for not registering them.

 

I am not saying you are in the wrong and i am not questioning the dogs ability he looks spot on, its only a piece of paperwork in my eyes, and paper doesn't make a great grafter, but paperwork is important to alot of people.

 

If I was you I would look for a bitch who isn't registered and breed him to her as mentioned, there is many about. Mark Bivvy has bred a litter or maybe 2 and some of the lads off here have his stock. Maybe they may be interested in using him.

 

You will definitely find him a mate, and you have still got a few years left in him yet so all should be okay. I wish you all the luck in finding a mating for him, I am sure you will find someone.

 

Regards RS

[Windy]

slight drift......

question for those in the know re breeding springers.

 

What is the max age for a bitch to have a litter?

 

I have a cracking bitch, KC reg'd, good line. Obedient, keen, observant, quarters naturally and loves to retrieve. I feel I should consider having pups, but fear I've left it too late. She is 5yrs old.

 

[rickyspringer]

she's a good age mate, I'd go for it, she's not too old and you want to breed her because she's a good example. Shows your not in it for the money as some people would of had 3 litters out of her by now.

 

If you don't mind me asking what lines is she from and what are you wanting to put to her??

 

Think 7 is the oldest age but i'm not 100% sure.

 

Let us know on your plans RS

[Spaniel]

Sorry - let me split my two gripes...

 

Gripe one: KC breed standards for ESS are ridiculous and that's why they won't ever win crufts or similar.

 

I love the fact that they come in all shapes and sizes on the working side and the show dogs, representing the breed are thick as the proverbial.

 

Gripe two: I can't trial my dog because he isn't KC registered so, despite being a great worker and looker, we have a more difficult path to get him laid.

 

Hope this clears up any confusion.

 

Jon

 

 

Very nice dog you have there, dont forget all this registering of pups and dogs etc brings in a few £££ for the Kennell Club.

Plus even when you do have papers you can not guarantee if the breeder is actually giving you the correct paper work for that pup...

Both mine (Bitches) are KC reg, not sure if i will go down the trialling route at some point but for now i just enjoy taking them pigeon and pheasant shooting so it wouldnt make much differance if they had papers or not, unless I was going to breed from them as KC reg pups can go for a few more ££s each.

[Gordon R]

KC registration does not guarantee that you can breed from a dog and still have the pups KC registered. I have an Akita (Harivo Buster Malone - we call him Barney ) with 46 champions (some are repeated) in a 62 dog pedigree. The most illustrious is the American Champion OBJ Widowmaker. He is ten stone with better bone than I have seen on an Akita. He has a "fault" - he is long haired and his KC registration is stamped - Progeny not eligible for registration. We never intended to breed and nor have we done.

 

It makes no difference to me, as I have little time for the Kennel Club, but it meant something to his breeders. They had spent quite a bit of time and money breeding the litter and were mortified that the only dog - a strapping pup - sprouted long hair.

 

Sadly, when you breed, KC means something to some people. I would prefer that they looked at the pups and parents, but that is not the way it is in many cases.

 

PS - I was told by a friend that his dog was siring litters until he was 18 - at least on paper. It would seem that the KC do not check - it's a nice little earner for them.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Gordon R

[al4x]

the bit of paper gives you an idea of the genetic make up of your dog and shows how interbred it is / is not. Without it you go purely on what the owner says which can be truthful and can be far from it. It is no guarantee you'll get a decent dog just because of the sire and as for someone with a registered bitch wanting an unregistered sire you'd be very lucky to find one