S Times article on cages

[al4x]

It has too many ifs and buts rather than keeping things simple, you're trying to define cage and give pheasants one treatment, then trying to say but you can still treat partridges the same and keep them in small cages. At what point does a pen become a cage and lets face it rearing poults you simply couldn't do at 1m2 a bird you could very easily end up with something applied to all pheasants being kept in captivity rather than just breeding ones. What I don't get though is with the benefit of your pictures and the LACS why there haven't been any prosecutions for cruelty. If the figures are as bad as you say and the birds coming out as bad that would be the way to shut down the shoddy operators and change things as you cannot cause large scale cruelty in agriculture these days. These farms must have their own vets who should be on top of things and mortality rates that you're mentioning should be enough for action.

[MC]

It has too many ifs and buts rather than keeping things simple, you're trying to define cage and give pheasants one treatment, then trying to say but you can still treat partridges the same and keep them in small cages. At what point does a pen become a cage and lets face it rearing poults you simply couldn't do at 1m2 a bird you could very easily end up with something applied to all pheasants being kept in captivity rather than just breeding ones. What I don't get though is with the benefit of your pictures and the LACS why there haven't been any prosecutions for cruelty. If the figures are as bad as you say and the birds coming out as bad that would be the way to shut down the shoddy operators and change things as you cannot cause large scale cruelty in agriculture these days. These farms must have their own vets who should be on top of things and mortality rates that you're mentioning should be enough for action.

 

Al4x,

 

The difference as I see it is partridge are kept in breeding pairs and therefore probably have the required minimum 1 sq M per bird. All the pheasant cages that have been shown have had several hens and one cock in them and do not give the required minimum space. Surely the simplest answer would be to ensure taht the birds had the required space by limiting the number of birds in each cage/box/pen call it what you will.

[MC]

Yes, there does seem no doubt that all the people who have responded to the consultation and the other evidence gathering exercises say the small barren cages should be banned.

 

Yes, we all agree that traditional partridge boxes should be left as they are.

 

I am sure we all agree that UK shoots should buy from UK game farmers.

 

However, as I have said keeping a small cage, but adding Astroturf and a perch does not make any difference to the size of the cage, and as reported, the people that use cages typically refuse to add Astroturf as it creates a bio-hazard.

 

We want to see a minimum size for birds kept in confinement for egg production that fulfils the 5 needs under the Animal Welfare Act.

By all means tell me what you or anyone else disagrees with regarding the content of our response to the consultation, have a read and let me know.

 

David

 

And that is how it should be. After all, all other ways of rearing poultry have come under the same scrutiny and have to comply. Why not gamebirds?

Edited January 21, 2010 by MC

[Simon Clarke]

So this part of the GFA response isn't related to small cages? Its a minefield but done with now so we shall see what comes out of it. Hopefully nothing that affects things too badly

 

Option 2 (that small barren cages should not be used) was the recommendation of the independent experts of the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) following their 2008 investigation, the most thorough the industry has ever undergone. This investigation was commissioned by Defra specifically to inform the drafting of the code and in particular its section on cages. No good reason has been given for ignoring FAWC’s advice.

 

the key word there is "barren" - the GFA would like to see small cages continue in use, but with enrichment as described previously. BASC does not accept this - seeing it as an option for business as usual.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Simon Clarke

[hunterswind9465]

BASC have done the best thing ! 3% toffs shoot the poor things 97% of us work bloody hard to shoot a few for the pot !!

Edited January 21, 2010 by hunterswind9465

[Blackbart]

I think you'll find the whole point of the ST article, and indeed this debate, which has been going on for five years is "shock and outrage" that NOT everyone has the same view. The GFA, CA etc want to keep small cages, with enrichment.

 

The antis took the issue to the media, not BASC, and no-one has appeared on News at Ten on the issue. In fact the mainstream media has shown relatively little interest in this. In 2005 there were articles in the Guardian and the Telegraph and an item on countryfile. If this had been taken up more widely, this debate would, by now, be redundant.

 

BASC is keen to encourage open debate in the shooting world on the subject, and to make game shooters aware of the problems. That is our job. We are also keen to see unbiased representations of our position, which do not rely on ridiculous allegations such as it being somehow a bad thing to lobby Labour MPs to influence a Labour government . The continued use of battery cages is the most direct threat I can see to the future of driven game shooting. The public and politicians will not support them and their continued use threatens restrictions on the whole game shooting process.

 

In 2005, after we had undertaken our own extensive research into the use of cages, both here and in France, we called a meeting of the game farmers association and other organisations to attempt to seek agreement. No agreement was forthcoming. This remains the case and we have repeatedly been accused of "airing the dirty linen in public". Make no mistake, that linen was and is on view to the world already. To make no attempt to address the issue would be a dereliction of our duty to attempt to safeguard the future of shooting.

 

 

Sorry simon if it was not news at ten,it was 4 or 5 year ago,but it was on national news and the way it was portrayed was that Basc had sort of done an undercover investigation with animal aid and at the end of the day people outside of the shooting world would have thought that was what happened.

Can you explain why Basc jumped in and condemned it and then had a consultation period ?Surely the point of the consultation period is to decide if it is right to condemn it or not ?It is like sending someone to prison and then deciding whether he broke the law or not !

I know the statistic of only 2% of game farms operate in this way is banded about but can you say what percentage of pheasants is produced by this 2% ? As from what i can gather it involves the biggest game farms in the country and involves millions of birds.There is a shoot near me that put's down an awfull lot of birds and shoots 6 days a week in the height of the season.If you add only 20p per bird do you honestly think they will buy british when we are talking tens of thousands of birds ?

 

Again i am not saying cages are right but it seems like Basc has said to gamefarmers(2%) we are right and if you dont agree with us we will cuddle up to politicians until they make it law and sod your business !!which to be honest is a pretty poor way to treat people that have supplied and supported gameshooting for a long time after all,nothing they are doing is against the law...yet.

[MC]

Sorry simon if it was not news at ten,it was 4 or 5 year ago,but it was on national news and the way it was portrayed was that Basc had sort of done an undercover investigation with animal aid and at the end of the day people outside of the shooting world would have thought that was what happened.

Can you explain why Basc jumped in and condemned it and then had a consultation period ?Surely the point of the consultation period is to decide if it is right to condemn it or not ?It is like sending someone to prison and then deciding whether he broke the law or not !

I know the statistic of only 2% of game farms operate in this way is banded about but can you say what percentage of pheasants is produced by this 2% ? As from what i can gather it involves the biggest game farms in the country and involves millions of birds.There is a shoot near me that put's down an awfull lot of birds and shoots 6 days a week in the height of the season.If you add only 20p per bird do you honestly think they will buy british when we are talking tens of thousands of birds ?

 

Again i am not saying cages are right but it seems like Basc has said to gamefarmers(2%) we are right and if you dont agree with us we will cuddle up to politicians until they make it law and sod your business !!which to be honest is a pretty poor way to treat people that have supplied and supported gameshooting for a long time after all,nothing they are doing is against the law...yet.

 

Whilst it may not be against the law is it the correct way to treat the pheasants? cramped up in a small cage? Why shouldn't game farmers move with the times and to be honest get real.

 

As I have said before Animal Welfare is a hot topic at the moment and BASC is taking the right stance. If shooter are seen to not give a **** from the very begginning what chance do we have of getting the average person to support game shooting?

[David BASC]

Morning BB

 

As you say the exposure by the antis was a few years ago, this is what brought the use of large barren cages to the public / government attention.

 

BASC Council reviewed all the information that was available at the time, including BASC's own visits to game farms as Simon has already said and Council took a stance on small barren cages - BASC was opposed to them for all the reasons we have stated,

 

I think from memory, the GFA and others also saw that small barren cages were not the way that British Game Farming should go, and they too stated quite clearly that

 

The GFA continues to believe that well-run, traditional outdoor egg laying systems are the preferred route for fertile pheasant egg production in the UK, because they are tried and tested.

 

And this statement is still on their web site, and we agree with that!

 

However, BASC disagrees about the amount of space a pheasant should have and we disagree that simply putting Astroturf and perches into a small cage makes any difference.

 

The 5 freedoms for animal welfare are:

 

1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.

 

2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.

 

3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.

 

4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.

 

5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.

 

(This definition is copied from the FAWC web site)

 

Surely well-run, traditional outdoor egg laying systems meet these criteria hands down as they have done for decades, but we are far from convinced small cages do.

 

Since then there have been several information gathering projects, the consultation being the last of them which only started recently, where anyone / group with an interest could make a submission.

 

Unfortunately, some who oppose the BASC view, have started to say that BASC’s stance will damage partridge rearing. This is nonsense, BASC have been at pains to make it very clear to the Government ministers, Defra the GFA, and every body else, that we have no issue at all with traditional partridge rearing and the use of partridge ‘boxes’, and frankly anyone who says otherwise is being, at best, mischievous!

 

Best wishes

 

David

Edited January 22, 2010 by David BASC

[anser2]

On this issue its clear that factory farming pheasants for shooting is clearly moraly wrong. We live in an age where shooting is coming increasingly under the public spotlight and how can we defend producing game birds in this manner. We cant and in time if this pratice continues it will be a factor that leads to the banning of game rearing. You only have to look over the sea to Holland to see what can happen where game rearing has been banned.

 

Ok it costs a bit more to rear birds using traditional methods and that gives the French an advantage. But the solution is simple , pay a bit more for your birds or accept smaller bags and release fewer birds. Do not blame the French for the decline in the British game rearing industry , blame British game shooters for being too tight to source ethicaly reared birds.

 

Every right minded shooter should support BASC 100% on this one.

 

 

 

As for the use of perches in game breeding pens. they are not needed. Pheasants only roost in trees to get away from predators. Where there are few foxes pheasants gladly roost on the ground where its a lot warmer on a clond winters night.

Edited January 23, 2010 by anser2

[al4x]

Seems like the results are in for this one and subject to enrichment and minimum spacings raised cages can still be used and well ****** me if BASC aren't giving themselves a pat on the back for their result in it.

There was me thinking they wanted them banned altogether and enrichment wasn't good enough, ok a minimum spacing has been accepted but the solution that was put through was the one suggested by all the other parties involved and not BASC which earlier in this thread weren't good enough

[Christopher Graffius]

Seems like the results are in for this one and subject to enrichment and minimum spacings raised cages can still be used and well ****** me if BASC aren't giving themselves a pat on the back for their result in it.

There was me thinking they wanted them banned altogether and enrichment wasn't good enough, ok a minimum spacing has been accepted but the solution that was put through was the one suggested by all the other parties involved and not BASC which earlier in this thread weren't good enough

 

If you think about it, currently the two English game farms using battery cages put 9 to 11 birds in a cage measuring two square metres. If this code comes into effect they will be able to put 2 birds in the same space - one bird per square metre. This makes very small battery cages uneconomic and impractical. It allows the traditional 10 x 10 to continue to be used.

 

I'd be delighted if all other parties support this but I suspect that you will find that the vested interests will kick up another fuss and claim it's the end of shooting as we know it - as they have done before.

 

No pats on the back here, the debate continues.

 

Christopher

[David BASC]

Good morning George,

 

Yes, as far as we have ever been able to find out there are two farms in England and one in Wales that use the small raised 'battery' cages. I am led to believe that they have been tried in Scotland but with no success so I don't know of any farms in Scotland or indeed NI that use them.

 

There are about 200 (maybe more) game farms in the UK and almost all use the traditional methods of laying pens for pheasants on grass, or traditional partridge 'boxes' and it is that system that we at BASC wanted to support.

 

We were very aware of French game farms who use the small raised cages targeting the UK with I suspect cheap imports, hence in no small part our ‘Buy local (i.e. British) and buy traditional’ campaign we launched in mid February.

 

As I told the editor of Shooting Times last month and as was reported by them in the 17th Feb issue, buying from traditional British farms will typically cost a few more pence per egg / poult but is it from a higher welfare system, but surely we should support this and support the traditional UK game farmers, after all they have been supporting all of us for decades!

 

The issue really was one of size, that was at the crux of the matter, enrichment is all well and good of course as we have said, but if you are simply enriching a small space it make little real difference for a welfare perspective, so we were delighted that the minimum size for keeping breading pheasants or partridges when in captivity has been set at the sizes we recommended.

 

David

[al4x]

caused a storm though, no one else is very happy about it, the government did listen to BASC though by bringing in all sorts of bits they hadn't even asked for in the consultation but hey keeps everyone on their toes

[David BASC]

I suspect UK game farmers will be wondering why ‘others’ are suggesting that UK shoots will have to buy from FRENCH farmers (see today’s Telegraph)

 

I suspect traditional UK game farmers (well over 200 of them, let alone all the shoots that raise their own birds) are happy that at least BASC is standing up for them and not bleating on about the two farms in England and the one in Wales that use battery systems.

 

I suspect that UK farmers are happy that BASC is pushing the ‘Buy British’ campaign and wondering why other organisations aren’t

 

To say 'no one is very happy about it' is frankly either missing the point or being deliberately provocative. I wonder which it is?

[al4x]

well the responses from most of the more involved organisations aren't exactly sounding particularly happy about it, unless you mean LACS and animal aid who are quite pleased. Fundamentally this doesn't stand to change anything other than stop the very biggest producing eggs in a way they can keep large numbers of birds and compete against the French offering so ultimately we will have to import more to make up for a drop in supply. It won't be a big issue as already the French supply quite a large proportion of the eggs here.

 

http://www.countryside-alliance.org.uk/our...n-game-rearing/

 

http://www.gfa.org.uk/gfa-news/11/

 

http://www.cla.org.uk/News_and_Press/Lates...re/1001883.htm/

 

http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/news/53/

Edited March 16, 2010 by al4x

[David BASC]

Oh dear, you really have missed the point haven’t you--those you list above are those who did not get their way so surprise surprise they are bound to moan about it aren’t they! What else did you expect?

 

You have also spectacularly, and probably deliberately, missed the point on imports, probably because you don’t have a decent argument to support your point...and just want to try and undermine mine. No one is forced to buy from France...as the Editor of Shooting Times said, many will support buying British even though it may cost a few extra pence per bird, including him!

 

We have a robust and thriving traditional game farming industry and it’s up to us to support it by ordering from them – that the right thing to do!

 

David

[Teal]

No one is forced to buy from France...as the Editor of Shooting Times said, many will support buying British even though it may cost a few extra pence per bird, including him!

The editor of the Shooting Times is a woman her name is Camilla Clark

[al4x]

those on the list are pretty much every pro game shooting organisation other then the BASC,

 

people will be forced to buy from abroad as you're effectively shutting down the most productive laying farms, when you reduce the capacity in this country can we fill the gap? Though there aren't many of them aren't they the biggest operators? how many eggs do they produce and where will that shortfall come from? The french are well placed to help out and though the BASC is promoting buying home laid eggs when people buy poults how carefully do they check where the initial eggs came from, and how much do they care when they are looking at buying thousands a few pence here and there does add up, especially if little things in this bill such as the more regular checks on every bird, no bits, no re stocking etc drive prices up a lot more than that. Your view of buy British is very idealistic while helping to bring in more legislation to hamper the people you're trying to support.

[David BASC]

Al4x again you miss the point for your narrow perspective, but nothing new there. :o

 

I guess you have done your research and contacted existing UK game farms or have you simply followed the line issued by the other organisations rather than BASC’s?

 

Teal, the Acting Editor of ST who ran the article(s) on game rearing is very much a man, he's called Alastair Balmain and I am sure you know full well it was to him that I was referring.

 

Anyway, BASC is publishing the following explanatory notes on Defra’s new Code of Practice on game farming. Questions which have been raised over the code are in italics, with BASC’s response in bold.

 

Q1: The code recommends that any incoming adult birds, including those caught up from the wild, should “be kept separate from existing stock for the duration of the breeding season.” This makes the common practice of refreshing a laying flock with new blood from elsewhere impossible.[/i]

 

• Defra’s new code will not prevent caught-up birds being used for laying. It merely staggers the mixing of caught-up and closed flock birds to allow for disease control. The new code requires a closed flock to remain a closed flock. It represents a best practice approach to keeping laying stock, allowing the game farmer greater quality control and reducing disease risks.

 

Q2: The code recommends that: “Birds should be checked at least twice daily for signs of disease or injury and more frequently during the breeding and rearing period.” No justification has been given for increasing workloads in this way without consultation or impact assessment.[/i]

 

• It is common practice to check birds at least twice a day and, during laying and rearing, more often. For those over-wintering birds an additional check is required but this is not unworkable and represents the continued commitment of game rearers to the highest welfare standards.

 

Q3: The code states that: “Management devices that do not allow birds to fully express their range of normal behaviours should not be considered as routine” and game farmers should work towards the ideal of management systems that do not require these devices. This now includes bits which are essential for game rearing.

 

• The code requires game farmers to take a vet’s advice whenever necessary and states that it is good practice to have an annual health and welfare plan for the flock approved by a vet. The use of any management device which interferes with the birds’ normal behaviour should not be considered as routine. For example, bits prevent birds from closing their beaks. Where it is agreed between a game farmer and a vet that there is a need for their use, they can be used.

 

Q4: The code states that “All laying systems for pheasants should provide a minimum space of 1 square metre per bird.” Some claim that one square metre per bird is insufficient for pheasants kept on the ground. They say that most ground-based pens at these densities would become heavily soiled and the birds prone to disease and welfare problems.

 

• The code specifies that one square metre is the MINIMUM space required per pheasant kept for egg production. Some systems, whether raised or ground-based may require more. Compliance with the minimum space requirements will not excuse poor husbandry. It has been common practice in English game farming to use fixed or moveable 10’ x 10’ (3m x 3m) for pheasant egg production.

 

Q5: The code states that “All laying systems for partridges should provide: 0.5 square metres per bird for grey partridges; and 0.29 square metres per bird for redleg partridges.” Some argue that the sizes given for partridges are not even stated as a minimum, so if a partridge system is either smaller or larger than the exact size quoted, there is a risk of prosecution.

 

• The minimum spaces set out for partridge pair boxes are based on standard practice in game farming. Standard practice dictates that grey partridge require more space than red legs in traditional pair boxes because they are more aggressive. No one will be prosecuted for providing more space than set out in the code.

 

 

Best wishes, and please support our traditional UK farmers!

 

David

[David BASC]

Thanks George,

 

Yes there are loads of places using raised laying systems, but there is a difference between the small barren laying cages that a very few were using (two in England and one in Wales) and the larger cages (some may call boxes) typically enriched, that others are using.

 

The issue is not and never was about cages / boxes being raised off the ground, it was about the MINIMUM size for birds in captivity for breeding and the environment in which they are kept.

 

Like the GFA (and I suspect many others) BASC believes that that well-run, traditional outdoor laying systems are the way for egg production. We have been saying this for over 5 years so should not have come as a surprise to anyone. After all, this is the system used by almost every game farmer in the UK so surely to goodness all of them can’t be wrong!

 

On the issues of raised laying units others seem to say that .33 m per bird is enough, we disagree and wanted a larger space of 1m for pheasants, and even battery chickens get more than .33m! Defra have agreed.

 

As I said above, questions have been raised by others and widely circulated and we are happy to answer those questions as I have posted.

 

Best wishes

David