CPSA - why

[al4x]

so basically what would be ideal would be some way of incorporating straw bale shoots into the CPSA, obviously it would need to be a different league / level but a way to get more clay shooters involved. I know where I am it offered nothing so I didn't join though do find it a bit on the boring side to be fair

However had my local shoots been affiliated in any way then i probably would have done

[Mungler]

The simple answer is as above.... CPSA lite.

 

A cheaper subscription organisation that is supported by ground owners including haybale ground owners [Field of Dreams time - get the ground owners and they will come], a web based system to administer scores and league tables and of course basic insurance cover.

 

Hey ho, what people want from the CPSA boils down to score keeping and insurance. With the internet, how difficult can that be?

 

Trying to fix what is already broken and riddled with infighting is like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Mungler

[Catamong]

Yes, they've been there, done that, as they say, it's called Clubman Membership, and it's offered at a rate of £32 per year as opposed to £59 per year for us Elite few.

 

Here's what they say about it:

 

Aimed at individual shooters and club members who currently do not belong to the CPSA. This scheme ensures that Clubman members have public liability and personal accident insurance along with our Pull! magazine (Pull! magazine is not available to Overseas Clubman members). It is possible to upgrade to another membership category at any time with members only being charged the pro-rata increase.

This membership allows the individual to shoot and try out CPSA registered events on a targets only basis at one nominated CPSA (Registered, Premier or Premier Plus) club/ground. It should be noted, however, that scores from these events are not submitted to CPSA Head Office and therefore not used towards any form of classification.

And here's what you get for your money, irrespective of membership type:

 

 

 

Details of what you are entitled to receive as part of your enrolment with the CPSA:

 

• £10 Million civil liability insurance cover for ALL shooting sports (except mounted hunting and subject to the policy document in force)*
  
• £20,000 Personal Accident cover *
  
• £10 Million Professional Indemnity Insurance for Coaches, Instructors, Safety Officers, Referees, affiliated county and regional committee members and volunteers.
  
• PULL! your own exclusive members-only magazine 10 times a year (next available issue sent after joining)
  
• Free membership card and badge
  
• A classification system tailored to meet the requirements of shooters at all levels
  
• Marksman Badges for 25, 50, 75 and 100 Straight in most disciplines
  
• Protection for your sport - the CPSA liaises closely with the BSSC, Police and the Home Office
  
• Free advice service to all members, shoot organisers and affiliated clubs of all sizes
  
• Gain a team place for your county, region or country - even the Olympic Games
  
• Assistance with planning, noise and shotgun certificate problems
  
• A variety of coaching schemes & courses exclusive to members
  
• The chance to compete in county, regional, national and international competitions
  
• Availability to enter major championships for all categories of shooters
  
• A free list of clubs and qualified coaches in your area on request
  
• Exclusive members seasonal special offers as listed here.
  

You decide whether that's worth £32 a year..??

 

Cat.

[MC]

so basically what would be ideal would be some way of incorporating straw bale shoots into the CPSA, obviously it would need to be a different league / level but a way to get more clay shooters involved. I know where I am it offered nothing so I didn't join though do find it a bit on the boring side to be fair

However had my local shoots been affiliated in any way then i probably would have done

 

I don't see why it should be in a different league. As Cat posted the CPSA is supposedly all about promoting and encouraging people into the sport of clay shooting. Now given that 99% of clay shooting happens at Social shooting clubs around the country then surely by the CPSA distancing themselves from this and not helping out where they can they are the ones missing a trick.

 

Other than my club shoots I do not shoot many registered or "Professional" shoots however apart from the Essex Masters which is in a league of its own IMO then there is nothing to choose between them.

 

We shot at Caterham back in the summer of last year and that was a registered shoot and it was a shambles. One stand the referee was messing about with the buttoning so the clays weren't consistent and at one point I broke my gun as I thought the clay wasn't coming only to see it sail across in front. Also on the last stand was a driven bird and the cage had a bar across to prevent you swinging too far back. Nothing wrong with this apart from the cage was 6 foot high and I am 6'4" so I couldn't physically stand in the cage. I had to stoop low down and couldn't see the birds clearly.

 

But Then again aren't registered shoots supposedly run to a set of rules and all haybales just dangerous score it yourself affairs?

 

The way I see it is if the CPSA really cared about clay shooting and not just about themselves then these sort of issues wouldn't arise and the sunday morning haybalers would join up and there would be more money in the coffers.

 

However as it has been pointed out before most people join shoot one shoot realise that the CPSA aren't doing anything for them and they never rejoin.

 

My own experience is much the same and I did not rejoin one year, I had a phone call from a guy asking why I hadn't rejoined and when I started to tell him he said he had to go and would ring me back. He never has.

 

Why is it that there is never anyone from the CPSA on these forums? I am sure they all know about them, I for one told Terry Bobett about this one back when the CPSA website became Auto Trader. It only reinforces that they are not interested in the common man and his opinions. Which in my opinion is why they will fail AGAIN.

[Raja Clavata]

The simple answer is as above.... CPSA lite.

 

Rules out most of the clay shooters from Essex that I know then, how about a CPSA heavies...

[Nial]

[*]The chance to compete in county, regional, national and international competitions

 

 

Where is..

 

Weekly local (within 50 miles) competitions

 

?

 

These probably don't need to be run to the same standard as county, regional and national competitions

but a chance to compete regularly, fairly locally, would be a big draw?

 

 

 

Nial

[Diceman]

The "haybale" ground I help to run is a CPSA member. I cannot think of a single benefit that this has given us in the 3 years that I have been involved - as far as the CPSA is concerned we may as well not exist. We don't even get a 'club' copy of the magazine. We won't bother renewing next time around.

[Catamong]

The "haybale" ground I help to run is a CPSA member. I cannot think of a single benefit that this has given us in the 3 years that I have been involved - as far as the CPSA is concerned we may as well not exist. We don't even get a 'club' copy of the magazine. We won't bother renewing next time around.

 

So, where have the CPSA let you down..

 

Please explain in simple terms what they haven't delivered on..??

 

I'd love to know.........?

 

Cat

[Diceman]

So, where have the CPSA let you down..

 

Please explain in simple terms what they haven't delivered on..??

 

I'd love to know.........?

 

Cat

 

 

OK, simply, it's a pretty simple cost/benefit equation. We, the club, give them money and we get zero in return. So if we don't give them any more money, and we still get zero in return, we have more money to spend on hay bales and we haven't lost anything. I'm not entirely sure what we were expecting them to deliver, other than to be able to say that we are associated to them, so I can't really complain that they have failed to deliver it, but my simple brain tells me that it just isn't worth maintaining membership.

If I'm missing something (and that is possible, see "simple brain" comment above) I'd genuinely like to know what it is. I just checked the CPSA website and can't find any benefits listed there either.

[Mungler]

OK, simply, it's a pretty simple cost/benefit equation. We, the club, give them money and we get zero in return. So if we don't give them any more money, and we still get zero in return, we have more money to spend on hay bales and we haven't lost anything. I'm not entirely sure what we were expecting them to deliver, other than to be able to say that we are associated to them, so I can't really complain that they have failed to deliver it, but my simple brain tells me that it just isn't worth maintaining membership.

If I'm missing something (and that is possible, see "simple brain" comment above) I'd genuinely like to know what it is. I just checked the CPSA website and can't find any benefits listed there either.

 

 

 

Didn't the CPSA offer to collect some scores or something?

[MC]

OK, simply, it's a pretty simple cost/benefit equation. We, the club, give them money and we get zero in return. So if we don't give them any more money, and we still get zero in return, we have more money to spend on hay bales and we haven't lost anything. I'm not entirely sure what we were expecting them to deliver, other than to be able to say that we are associated to them, so I can't really complain that they have failed to deliver it, but my simple brain tells me that it just isn't worth maintaining membership.

If I'm missing something (and that is possible, see "simple brain" comment above) I'd genuinely like to know what it is. I just checked the CPSA website and can't find any benefits listed there either.

 

 

As I stated earlier they are a revenue collector and nothing else, they have no interest in clay pigeon shooting outside of registered events as long as they keep getting the membership.

 

And even when they don't they don't want to know the reasons.

[PhilR]

The "haybale" ground I help to run is a CPSA member. I cannot think of a single benefit that this has given us in the 3 years that I have been involved - as far as the CPSA is concerned we may as well not exist. We don't even get a 'club' copy of the magazine. We won't bother renewing next time around.

 

I assume your shooting ground is in Bucks. I looked for clubs in Bucks on the CPSA website and came up with ten names one of them possibly yours, these are all affiliated to the CPSA, a couple of them are registered grounds.

 

Perhaps a novice shooter, or newcomer to Bucks, who are looking for a shooting ground might consider looking on the national governing body's website to find the location of them. If you don't belong then your name won't appear under the auspices of the NGB, I can't quantify how many people turn up at your club having found it on the CPSA website but if you don't belong.....

 

Lots of people when taking up a new hobby or sport start first with the NGB and feel comfortable when they turn up at an affiliated venue. They are probably introduced to the club's safety officer and shooting instructor and they're able to say that they've got NGB accreditation and that little piece of paper reassures people.

 

As a parallel my business is fire safety engineering and despite our website and paying Google for a sponsored link we still get more enquiries and business from our membership of the Institution of Fire Engineers and listing on their website.

[benelli montefeltro]

having read through this topic i fell that there is definitely some undertones of anti registered and competition shooters. a sort of fear from the strawbalers. and with so many saying what have they done for me and whining, but few actually saying what they would like to see done. i suspect because they dont really know themselves, and are only interested in the cpsa bashing, for whatever reason that may be. i genuinely do think it is an envy, and fear of the registered and competition shots in the country. just my views

[Axe]

As a complete outsider I have no idea about either but from what I have read recently it strikes me that there is obviously something missing. Whether you support a local club or are a competitive clay pigeon shooter, the entire sport would be much benefited by finding some common ground.

 

I have to say, that whilst there may be some benefits in the Clubman membership mentioned, it certainly doesn't offer many benefits and I noted that several of the benefits listed by Cat appear to be incorrect as I understand from the CPSA website:

 

A classification system tailored to meet the requirements of shooters at all levels

Gain a team place for your county, region or country - even the Olympic Games

The chance to compete in county, regional, national and international competitions

Availability to enter major championships for all categories of shooters

 

None of these are available at clubman level and you are only allowed to shoot on a single nominated ground that must be a registered CPSA ground, which I understand to be not affiliated.

 

That therefore is of no benefit to affiliated clubs or people who only wish to shoot at more low key grounds or events.

 

I appreciate that CPSA members are keen to protect their sport and organisation, but I am equally surprised that the CPSA the National Governing Body, has not introduced a Clubman league. It doesn't have to be as 'proper' or immaculate as the official CPSA scoring but it would at least give the 'strawbale' events a chance to feel part of it and perhaps find a little competitive spirit within their own club leagues. Afterall, other sports have done it.

 

Of course, if i've got this completely wrong, please point it out.

[SXPhil]

When I joined CPSA I was told that Southend Gun Glub was my nearest club, I bowled on down there thinking this is the way to start and was meet with such a frosty reception and told to come back another time I never did

 

When I spoke to CPSA about it they simply suggested I go elsewhere

 

I will be renewing with BASC this year and not renewing my CPSA Clubman membership

[Mungler]

having read through this topic i fell that there is definitely some undertones of anti registered and competition shooters. a sort of fear from the strawbalers. and with so many saying what have they done for me and whining, but few actually saying what they would like to see done. i suspect because they dont really know themselves, and are only interested in the cpsa bashing, for whatever reason that may be. i genuinely do think it is an envy, and fear of the registered and competition shots in the country. just my views

 

An interesting perspective.

 

I think there is a frustration that the clay shooting governing bodying just isn't doing it for the majority of clay shooters - that's where the CPSA bashing stems from.

 

Not to go over old ground I think more people would like to get into an participate in competitive shooting even if it was at a regional inter haybale competition (because there is a lack of CPSA registered grounds and events, certainly near me anyway). Given the footfall at haybales the CPSA are missing a trick.

 

I think CPSA lite is the way forward - you just need a centralised trimmed down organisation to deal with the score keeping and league tables, all of which can be done on line for not much cost.

 

Having given it some thought, it appears to be just about fixtures, scoring and insurance.

[Catamong]

When I joined CPSA I was told that Southend Gun Glub was my nearest club, I bowled on down there thinking this is the way to start and was meet with such a frosty reception and told to come back another time I never did

 

When I spoke to CPSA about it they simply suggested I go elsewhere

 

I will be renewing with BASC this year and not renewing my CPSA Clubman membership

 

Well, that's what you get if you pick a Skeet or Tarp only club, us Sporting shooters are a lot more welcoming, we don't take life too seriously.

 

Southend is one of the very few clubs that even I've never been to, you'd have been made much more welcome at a Sporting shoot.

 

Cat.

[MC]

The thing is what determines a registered shoot?

 

Is it just that your scores will be sent to the CPSA for your classifications? If that is so then nearly every shoot I have ever been to could be registered. Is there a standard for the birds? do they have to be a certain distance/ speed / trajectory? I am talking Sporting here not tarp or squit.

 

The facilities at my two local clubs are superior to most of the CPSA regsitered grounds I have been to anyway so that obviously isn't a requisite.

[SXPhil]

you'd have been made much more welcome at a Sporting shoot.

 

Cat.

 

 

I have indeed

[Catamong]

The thing is what determines a registered shoot?

 

Is it just that your scores will be sent to the CPSA for your classifications? If that is so then nearly every shoot I have ever been to could be registered. Is there a standard for the birds? do they have to be a certain distance/ speed / trajectory? I am talking Sporting here not tarp or squit.

 

The facilities at my two local clubs are superior to most of the CPSA regsitered grounds I have been to anyway so that obviously isn't a requisite.

 

Yes, there is a proper set of rules and regulations that all Registered shoots must comply with, here they are:

 

http://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/file/CPSA_Booklet_7.pdf

 

The problem is, a lot of grounds tend to ignore the ones they don't like or can't be bothered with, safety cage sizes are a prime example, how often do you see them 1.2m square and 2m high, normally they're much smaller than that, which can make safe gun handling very difficult for big people?

 

Payouts are another problem, the ground owner should clearly state the amount of the entry fee to be paid back into the prize fund, but most grounds simply ignore this rule, and it's all "smoke & mirrors" when it comes to calculating payouts.

 

It's clearly not practical for the CPSA to police these regulations at the dozens of shoots held each week, and this can lead to other problems, as when the CPSA does point out a non-conformance to a ground owner, they are accused of being "heavy handed" or "insensitive", as I've said before, there are some massive ego's out there in the ground owning fraternity that are easily bruised.

 

The vast majority of cases where grounds have refused to run any more Registered shoots can be traced back to instances whereby the CPSA have merely sought to enforce the existing rules and regulations for the benefit of shooters, and the ground owner has taken umbrage.

 

Having said all that, there are some very good ideas coming out on this thread, keep 'em coming, who knows, some of these proposals may be taken on board..??

 

Cat.

[benelli montefeltro]

i attended last years home international. i was hopeful that the organisation would be first class, and the refereeing of the highest quality. to put it bluntly i hoped that it would be of a much better standard than what i am used to shooting in our reg shoots in ni in regards to the reffing and rules. sadly it was utter chaos! a shambles. this is meant to be a big event at the end of the year, run by all the member nations of the ictsc. i though the higher up the ladder you would go, it would get better. it didnt. so as a result i now shoot and dont worry about such things. it is what it is and thats it. there is simply not enough interested to change things

[Catamong]

Yes, I can understand those comments, having been to a few H.I. tournaments myself, some have been 1st class, others, well, all I can say is that they've been poorly organised.

 

Shame your first experience was a bad one.

 

Cat.

[benelli montefeltro]

i felt that it had no sense of being a big event at all. but these things happen. and i went through hell to get there what with flight chaos and other stuff. it was like the movie plains, trains, and automobiles, my journey to the place! thats what made it a bitter pill to swallow, the bother i went to getting there, only to see the utter dross that this prestigous event was

[Catamong]

i felt that it had no sense of being a big event at all. but these things happen. and i went through hell to get there what with flight chaos and other stuff. it was like the movie plains, trains, and automobiles, my journey to the place! thats what made it a bitter pill to swallow, the bother i went to getting there, only to see the utter dross that this prestigous event was

 

It's always left to the host Country to organise, Jersey have a nice ground on a windswept bit of coastline, but the only thing they can organise well is the drinking in the bar afterwards, England always tend to put on a decent show, but Ireland, Scotland and Wales can be decidedly iffy.

 

My view is that the Team Managers ought to get there 2 or 3 days before the event to make sure everything is well organised and will run like clockwork, it's no good turning up on the evening before the event hoping that the locals have got everything sorted, as invariably they haven't, and it's too late by then to do anything about it.

 

I well remember one do in Wales, we turned up at the post shoot banquet, service was very slow, the starters didn't arrive, it turned out that the Hotel had gone bust that day and the staff were threatening to walk out because they weren't being paid, me and a couple of other guys had to go in the kitchen and sweet talk them into cooking us a meal..!!

 

Cat.

[Mungler]

I well remember one do in Wales, we turned up at the post shoot banquet, service was very slow, the starters didn't arrive, it turned out that the Hotel had gone bust that day and the staff were threatening to walk out because they weren't being paid, me and a couple of other guys had to go in the kitchen and sweet talk them into cooking us a meal..!!

 

The dizzy heights eh?

 

You see, it's not really just about the prize money

 

As an aside, I am amazed how much clay shooting is as a sport under sponsored - you think how much expensive Musto and Le Cham gear there is floating round any clay ground and the average gun at £1k a pop.... Ah, I digress, another trick missed.

 

I hope someone is drawing up a list of all these fabulous suggestions that NickyT can take to CPSA high command. Would the turkeys vote for Xmas though?